I have submitted a rules proposal to completely eliminate the 11 lb. Weight limit in AMA pattern classes. (proposal 11-11).
I'd like to see some discussion on the pros and cons of this proposal.

My reasons for submitting the proposal include the following points:

1. There is no competitive advantage to a heavier plane with the 2 meter size constraint (in fact I'd argue a heavier plane is usually at a disadvantage and perhaps a minimum weight makes more sense than a maximum)
2. The 2 meter size constraint is sufficient keep the weight of pattern planes to reasonable limits.
3. The fact that AMA class planes are weighed only at the US Nationals gives proof that the rule is not now enforced and not needed.
4. The 11 lb. Weight limit drives up the cost of pattern planes through the necessary use of more expensive high tech materials. (If you don't believe "light weight" cost a lot of money ask the people who race sail boats)
5. Removing the weight limit will reduce the manpower and cost associated with running the Nationals And also perhaps increase participation.

OK, guys, what do you think?
What other "pro" and "con" points?

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_92..._1/key_/tm.htm

I just got my NSRCA rules survey. I guess the best way to make sure there is no change to the weight limit is to make sure that is not covered at all in the survey. Why am I not surprised?

Does that surprise you Tony? Gotta delete the knife edge leading edges rule however.

Tony,

THe survey was based upon input from the NSRCA membership. I guess no one brought it up.

I''m just not happy that members of the contest board who vote on this stuff can submit proposals. I have always contended that if you are on the contest board as part of your obligation you must give up that right. It's just a conflict of interest in my mind. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that a certain proposal will get the nod over all others. And that particular proposal has some flaws in it.

How/when did NSRCA members get input on what would be in the survey?
I was pretty disapointed in the scope of the survey.
At least any AMA menber can submit a rules proposal on their own.

When you elected a district vp.

gary

I remember someone had posted it to the NSRCA discussion list for sure. They were looking for input to the survey they were preparing. It may have also been in the K-factor. I'm not sure about that though. I definitely remembered someone looking for input.

Rather than saying too much at this juncture, I will only say that I absolutely agree with both Tony and Joe above. Regards_TNWalker

May be NSRCA rules should spell out exactly how rules should be proposed, voted on and approved?

Rule proposals (perhaps excluding emergency issues) should be on a set frequency and time schedule.

handglider, I see you're still "power tripping"! Regards_TNWalker

The rules proposal process is not an NSRCA process...it is an AMA process. The process and schedule are pretty detailed here:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/CBProcedures.doc

Regards,

Dave

Dave, I knew these rules existed but I've never taken the time to read them. Why do some of the folks making rule proposals recently complain that their proposals were lost or that their District VP was unaware of their proposals. It seems to me that some improvements in the process at the local level need to be improved so that participants, folks making rule proposals, etc are properly represented. Perhaps we need an area (website or K-Factor section) where rule proposals and other issues are posted for all to consider. Right now, the best way to keep abreast of these issues is to follow rc universe, rc groups, flying giants, NSRCA tread and/or the K-Factor. None of these are necessarily the offical site for such information. Also, shouldn't each District VP discuss (either formally or informally) these rule proposals with his/her contituents before he/she votes on the proposal? Right now I don't think this happens on a routine basis.

The rule making process is very simple. Any AMA member can make a rule proposal during the "open window" for proposals. Nothing is hidden and the procedures are there for all AMA members to follow. Keep track of the current proposals here:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/...erobatics.aspx

The key part is for YOU to let your contest board member know your position on the various rule proposals. Normally, we never hear peep out of anybody until it is too late.

Tom Miller
AMA Dist IV RCACB

Ron,

I can't say as I have "the answer" as to improving the process...but having been involved with it in varying degrees for 20+ years.....I can offer some observations/commentary -
- A single individual can submit a proposal without discussing it with any others involved in the event, and they could even submit a proposal that they know has no popular support. Right or wrong, majority rules. Honestly, I'm not aware of anyone who has followed the rules (and I think they are clear enough for anyone that takes the time to read and learn the process) and not been properly represented. I am aware of any number of proposals that died an early death, and the proposer was less than happy about being in the minority, and may have claimed any number of things which most certainly impart a negative cloud on the process.
- In the past, a good number of the AMA RC Aerobatics Contest Board positions were held by guys that were rarely seen at events (or hadn't been to an event in the last 10 years), and their votes reflected their lack of activity. And these guys rarely sought input, and not being known to the current flyers, they rarely received any input. Not good. Currently, the Board Members are (relative to the past) very active and very accessible....much better situation.
- I don't think it is the responsibility of the RCACB members to contact each and every constituent to ask their opinion. I think it is the responsibility of the RCACB members to be accessible and responsive, and to put information out to their constituents (contests, seminars, tradeshows, email groups/lists/forums, etc).
- I know in the NE, the AMA D1 and D2 RCACB members are pretty reguarly making announcements and asking questions at local contests, trade shows, and judging seminars. And I know they get very little input and feedback, and would love to have more. Without question in my mind, I hear more people complaining about the results after the fact, and these people did not take part in the process. Again, this does nothing more than impart a negative cloud on the process.

I agree 100% with the point made earlier in this thread that RCACB members should not be able to submit proposals, as there is ample opportunity for conflicts of interest. I have made the suggestion before that rules proposals should not be submitted by any member of the RCACB or elected/appointed officer of the NSRCA. However, the rules do no prohibit this. Perhaps I should submit a proposal to include this in the rules. However, in practice, I don't think it would make a difference, as an idea from a Board Member or Officer could be "suggested" to another individual as a proposal.

Regards,

Dave

Just an idea, what about all the people that want the rule changed write a letter with the proposal, all sign it and send it directly to the AMA?

Regards

That's fine, except that is not how the process works. There is a defined process for this and its fairly simple as Dave stated above.

Arch

Not trying to argue, just trying to help those who complaint,is just that I see this topic over and over, post after post, on an endless road, and many people complainted about not been heard, it's just a valid idea in my opinnion when everything else fails, or it's simply that people will always complaint, I guess we see that all the time.

It really does not bother me, I fly FAI and in the US have not competed in AMA ever before, just trying to help, as I see always the same people that own the truth, and the others fighting, but still no defenitly "yes" or "no" from an AMA representative copied or pasted in RCU, so far the poll speaks for itself.

Regards

Dave,

Running a bit far afield on this topic, but....With regard to the RCACB members being accessible and wanting more feedback, this is where the AMA and the RCACB board members have fallen flat.

On the AMA website is a list of the board members. The list contains the District they represent, their name, and physical address. This leaves us the option of mailing them a letter, or showing up at their door as avenues to provide feedback. In this day and age, I would hope that eacg board member could at least be provided with an official e-mail ([email protected]) address to be published on the AMA site. If the AMA is unwilling/unable to provide this, then I would challenge each board member to insist that an e-mail address (gmail, etc...) be placed on the AMA list for board related corespondence. I sent an e-mail to Greg Hahn a while back relating this deficiency....text pasted below...and it was well received, but has not been acted upon to date......

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Greg,

I'm not sure if you are the person to send this to. If not, please forward appropriately, or let me know who needs to read this.

We can easily find the members of our contest board listed in the AMA magazine and conveniently located on the AMA website. However, the information for them includes only the name, the AMA district they represent, and their physical address. If I had the desire to provide an opinion/feedack to my contest board representative, or any of the other representatives, I am left with only a few choices to do so:

1. I can write them a letter and mail it.
2. I can show up at their house since I have their address..
3. I can dig around online in places like mailing lists (nsrca for example) forums, etc....and maybe find a private e-mail address to send an e-mail to.

None of these choices are really effective at giving the board member the ability so receive input from their constituents to influence their vote in a way that reflects the needs/desires of the majority of members. If I were a board member, I don't think I would want my home address listed on this public list. Call me paranoid, but I think I would rather use a non-physical communications method, or at least use a PO box. That being said, it would be very easy for the AMA to provide a secure, private means for these people to receive communications from the membership. They could easily do one of the following:

1. Preferred method: An online link next to each board members name that opens a contact form. This form would require a minimum of information to identify the person (Name, AMA number to determine district, e-mail address) and field to type in what the member would like to say. Once the form is filled out properly, the information is sent to board members e-mail address of choice on file with the AMA. This is the contact model is used by many web sites now when you click the "contact us" link and works well to gather some information and prevents having to provide an e-mail address that can be abused by spam forwarding, etc...

2. Alternate method: Give each board member a "modelaircraft.org" e-mail address for official use and publish those on the website. This is more cumbersome for all parties, because the member must now check this e-mail remotely or have it forwarded to a private e-mail address. It also does not force the submiter to provide even the most basic of information to identify themselves to the board member.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Richard,

I agree with you that having a published email list for the RCACB members would be helpful, and agree it should be done (in any of the ways you outlined). However, I would note that many of the guys I have heard complaining about the rules and the rules process don't know the schedule, the process, or who their RCACB board member even is. Their purpose seems more to complaining rather than actually providing feedback to the RCACB members and being a part of the process.


Apereira,

I suspect if all guys wanting a rule change submitted a letter directly to AMA, AMA would distribute the letter to the RCACB board members. The bigger problem (I think) is that guys unhappy about the process haven't spent the minimal amount of time needed to learn the process, or are just unhappy because they didn't get their way.

Regards,

Dave

If that's what is happening then is their fault, they will keep complaiting about it for ever, I really think is easier to get the airplane at 11Lbs than changing the rules, all of my F3A airplanes are under 11Lb, and if I can doit anybody can.

I think a new hobby derivate aroused with the web forums, and too many people spend more time here than the field, some times I think people go through the post to find where to start an argument with somebody, I'm doing something about it for me, I'm going to finish up a new plan right now.

Good luck to all in resolving the issues.

Regards