The following observations were made last weekend while attending the Bakersfield Pattern contest.

I have to admit that after being so much more involved in the building of the models over the past few months I had a lot more appriciation for every plane at the contest. I believe we had 21 pilots this year and out of the 21 planes I think 12 were either Oxai or CA's and 1 was Comp Arf. So out of 21 planes 2/3rds were flying something that either sold or is selling in the neighborhood of $3000.00 (Average) THat kind of blew me away so we lined up all of these planes and it made for a pretty cool picture. (I hope Tony puts it up)

Out of the 7 planes that were left most of them were good 2m designs thathave been around for several years. I know that I have seen at least three of the Abbras competing for a finals spot in Masters as rescently as last year. After sorting out the different designs and equipment that was being used I realized that what I was seeing was something like this.

Most popular planes are designed one of two ways. The First is by a pilot like a Hanno Prettner or CPLR that has figured out ways to make the individual designs better suit there flying style and ability. The second is by an individual that may not ever be a national or world champion but has the ability to listen to everyones opinouns and then apply his ability as a modeler to come up with a good all around plane. (Black Magic comes to mind) Several guys did that in the 80's off versions of Hannos Curare, and they probably out sold the Curare 4 to 1.

However,lately, at least to me it seems that the gap between the really good flying planes and the really affordable ones has kept getting bigger and bigger. Look at Oxai. They have come in and really set the standard in a fairly short period of time to what has now become almost just the average pattern plane. Now how can they turn around and produce a model for the entry level pilot. This was the same thing we were running into. In the past the CA planes I think were fairly solid designs geared toward the middle of the road pattern flyer. Since making all the construction changes we have kind of taken aim at a different type of pattern flyer and until last weekend I thought there is just no way to go back. Well maybe we can sort of.

I spoke at length to Steve, Bill Sheets, Jacob and his father as well as a few others and I think we have a way to do both. I was telling them that we have 4 or 5 old style foam Passports at the factory that are all built up to the ARC level but we had to just set them aside when all the new lighter version came together. So what I suggested is that since none of them are going to the Nats why not buy these planes and use them to help better understand the rest of the equipment in order to minimize mistakes when the new planes arrive.

THat conversation started me thinking how can we make a great $3000.00 plane and a great $1500.00 plane from the same plane. I think it can be done and if push came to shove the $1500.00 plane can also make weight at the Nats with some basic upgrades.

First off we are going to use the Passport as the sacrificial plane to test this theory on but if it is even halfway successful the Visa and Onas will be a piece of cake.

$1500.00 Passport 2010
1. Back to the foam fuse. THe foam is much easier to mold and is always a constant weight unlike balsa. (Savings 3 hours labor, $125.00 Material) End result same weight just a little softer skin.

2. Wing construction- Solid foam, sheeted, like before, and SFG's that are similiar to the Onas. (No removable wing tips) Savings tons of time, 4 hours or more and 2 ounces in weight without the removable tip.) Penalties wings will be 2 ounces heavier

3. All laser cut parts are exactley the same but the Battery tray/rudder servo tray will probably be left up to the customer to install(with a couple page instruction manual it should be a breeze.

4. Double walled Cardboard Shipping box that is going to get it there safely but probably cant be used over and over. Savings- 3-4 hours and another $50.00 or so in wood.

5. This line of planes is going to all come standard with anodized black wing and stab tubes. Savings close to $100.00

6. This is the area that we will not be able to a ton but with the right colors I think we can still offer a very clean scheme that isn't a full day per wing to do. The number of curves and colors doesnt have anything to do with the quality of a wing. It will be much less time consuming and then each customer can have a few logos made to go on it. Savings TIme 5-6 hours.

7. Again not to much we can save on the fuse paint except in scheme. Again 5-6 hours is huge.

8. We are going to include all the hardware and covers minus the Carbon spinner.

9. Single Piece Rudder (Time)

When its finished it should be a great all around plane that with a wing tube, stab tube, battery
and spinner sustitution should be capable of winning in any class legally.

We are going to try to make this easy on everyone. This line of planes are doing to be sold at half the price $3000.00 = $1500.00
+ $275.00 shipping making the total for a model that $1775.00

Please guys n gals let me know your thoughts on this or if anyone has something more to add. The main goal here is being able to produce a plane that flies 98% as good as the plane that cost twice as much.

Chip

I'm interested.
I am just getting back into RC flying and I am flying a Wind 110 and would like to move up to a 2M plane in the next 6 months.
My short list is a Wind 2M ~2200, Neptuno~2100 or a Vanquish 2M price ?
A decent 2M plane for 1500 or so sounds great.

Thanks Chip
Welcome back to the States.

Well Chip, Allow me to add that you forgot to add all the cost of the very expensive tooling and equipment for producing one of those airplanes. Besides there is the capitalism factor; which is: "The boy that makes that plane has to earn something, isn't?".
In the other hand, an all wood airplane for can fly as good as a full composite one but with the 20% of the cost... I'm sure about this.
Also, I've another question: How is possible that a 1.10 class plane costs 30%-40% of a 2x2 class one? Wet surface is barely 15 - 20% less while wingspan is just 15 to 20 cm less...
Good point on this thread...

G'day Chip,

The real question should be: Should the "entry level" pilot be flying a 2 x 2 metre pattern ship?

One could argue that 2 x 2 metre pattern models flying in sportsman could potentially put off new participants.

Most "entry level" pilots wouldn't want to buy a $1500 airframe and then add motor, batteries (assuming electric), ESC, Radio gear etc. By the time you add all that up, you're going to be well over $2K.

I'm all for reducing costs but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree for the "entry level" pilot.

Cheers
Jason.

A kit version of Passport probably will be very attractive too: white fiberglass fuze (no paint), foam cores for wings etc., paper templates for formers and trays etc., carbon landing gears. Wood etc material to finish the model as an option.

The price of the basic kit can be around $600-700.


PS. $275 for shipping probably is at the high side. I paid $100 for an AW 75cc ARF plane shipped in doubled cardboard boxes.

Chip,

I think a really nice 1.10 size would be great as well. Something that directly goes after the market of the Focus Sport, Glow or electric at a reasonable cost that you can fly with sport digital servos. Yes there will be the issues with guys flying full blown 2m stuff, but a really nice flying 1.10 size can be just as competitive as a much lower cost.

Arch

$275 is also coming from Argentina. I think that's a good price considering how far it's coming.

Hello,

Interesting discussion. I am a complete neophyte who hopes to enter a contest or two this season flying in the Sportman's class. I currently fly a couple of small .50 sized pattern planes which have served me well so far, but which I feel are too small to really compete with. Based on the photos I have seen of previous contests, it seems that many are flying 2M planes even in the lower classes. On the smaller side of the scale you might see someone flying a Focus Sport or a Venus II, but nothing smaller than that. That in itself can be intimidating.

For this season, I will be flying a Sebart Angel .50 which is a little smaller than a Venus II, but not by much. Since I only fly electric planes, things can get expensive in a hurry when you add the cost of the batteries, motor, controller, etc. Cost is important to me. Also, since I am still learning, there is always the possibility of losing the plane, so I do not want to put too much money at risk.

Right now, my dream plane would be an Integral, which can be bought for about $1040, unpainted, or about $1500, painted. I think that the target should be set closer to the $1000 mark, since there is already a plane available in that price range. Some might consider it a little dated, but in the lower classes it is more than adequate. I would certainly be more than happy to own one. Also, keep in mind that once the plane is outfitted with everything it needs, the price tag will probably be closer to $2000.

Realistically, for me, my next plane will probably be a Sebart Wind 110. Pretty affordable at a little less than $600, but I will keep dreaming of the Integral.

Teo

As an aside, I would have loved to build a CA Epsilon .90, but the kit no longer seems to be available in the US.

A long time ago one of the car magazines did an article about the need for a $1000 new car. (I TOLD you it was a long time ago, lol). They came to the conclusion that there wasn't much of a market for that because you could get a pretty nice used car for that price.
I think a less-expensive entry level pattern plane might run in to the same problem. There are used pattern planes out there, in good condition, nearly fully equiped and even trimmed for $1000. That's the route I took when I decided to move up from Sportsman.
At the Sportsman level the learning curve is so steep that the airplane itself isn't as important.

This is so true. In Sportsman, and a lot of times, Intermediate, it's not the 2x2 plane that wins, it's the pilot that has control of the plane that wins. A .50 or 1.10 sized plane is perfect in these classes as long as you know how to fly.

Chip,
My preference would be having all the glass parts come in white that's good enough to use as a base color without having to spray white on top of white.

I'd prefer that all the foam parts come unsheeted with each panel coming in a separate shuck, not both panels cut out of the same shuck. That way, I can build them as light and straight as my skill level and pocket book allows.

Then I'd want molded in reference marks on the fuse that show where the designer intends for the wing and stab to be mounted.

Formers can be pre-cut or printed on paper as long as they're reasonably close to what they should be.

Finally, a minimal instruction sheet that tells me what the dihedral is supposed to be as well as suggested throws.

Assuming all of the above is of good quality and light enough to make weight, I'd be happy. There's nothing more frustrating than getting a plane from halfway around the world that either has components that are too heavy to make weight, are damaged, and/or crooked. I've experienced one or more of these flaws in the last 5 or 6 planes I've built from various manufacturers all over the world. In each case, I had to dispose of and replace something or other to either make weight or make it straight.

Verne Koester

Ok guys I hear where everyone is coming from on this and I think I need to kind of reword some things. These were not meant to be entry level planes . Jas is 100% correct the little 50 size arf's should be more then enough airplane to help a guy decide if getting into pattern is what he really wants to do.

Next these are ARF's complete, I am not sure how many kits of anything would sell that requires things like glueing and painting. Also they cannot be ARF's that will sell for $1000.00 because we cannot make a production plane that is almost equal performance and weight to the high end planes for that amount of money. At least not in Argentina or China. (My experience anyway)

What can be done is a plane that will meet the rules and the performance for about $1500.00 plus the shipping. I was happy because 4 guys at a contest that only had 21 registered thought that this might be a good compromise and they all ordered them immediately. The first guy wanted to find a design more suited for FAI today because he knows his plane was not designed for these patterns. Jacob wants to get a 2 meter plane and feels he has out grown his inspire. Steve is flying a proline and was looking for something that might be a little more modern design wise. They were all looking at 3000-4000 for what they wanted and it is just a big amount for a plane.

I thought maybe there were others out there as well and it seemed to me like a fairly inexspensive way to upgrade.

Entry level is not the correct wording but I really couldnt find something off the top of my head that fit. I guess Mid Level or something would be better.

Gotta go

Chip

Lower cost/Modern design?

Chip, If I had been at Arvin (was at Barcs this weekend) I would have been another that would have given a thumbs up on this idea. I fly advanced, don't really want to spend 3-4K, so something in the $1500 range is perfect, the only real alternative right in that price range now is the Integral, which I fly.

Dale

I think a well designed all balsa./liteply plane can be built in arc form for 700-800 bucks.

This would include built up plug in wings and a built up fixed stab.

If weight seemed to be the determining factor, one could "shrink" the plane to 72"X72" and shave off a few ounces here and there but honestly it can be done.

If we can take a wood kit such as the Black magic and Insight/Pentathlon series and use standard weight wood everywhere except on wing sheeting and built to 10.5 lbs painted, why can't it be done?

On one of my latest planes I noticed that the side sheeting was quite heavy and instead of tossing it, I traced the frame of the plane on the sheeting and milled the 3/32 sheeting to 1/32 from the wing tube back and removed a significant amount of weight, esp aft of the cg.

Cored foam wings and stabs would also help. Using a lightening core that runs from root to tip instead of honeycombing reduces labor and can be cut while making the wing cores initially.
To increase strength in the correct areas.. you trim the core that would be removed to glue back in. Doing this I was able to build wings rtf at 14oz easily.

i think the pattern community is long overdue for a competitive plane all the way to and thru masters sequences for under a grand in arf format and around 700 in arc format.

This plane would be viable for glow or electric as well.

Chuck Hochhalter
Builder of Organic Fiberous Compound Airframes

cheers.

as a side note, one place that cheap arfs traditionally fail is the canopy/chin cowl. With CA models, they have mastered a light strong canopy that can easily be made from a plug. Heck, you could modify a design to encorporate the existing canopy plugs that they have and reduce cost of production. Same with chin as well I suppose.

Extreme Flight sells a 78" Extra (540$ delivered) with as complete a hardware package with decent quality components as one would need. The Extra is not the latest design by any account. It also isn't a composite anything...all built up, very lightweight for its size, balsa and ply. The plane as it comes is probably no more than a Sportsman capable platform....wing is just too large and control surfaces much much too large to be an effective pattern plane

There is a market for built up, true 2x2 meter balsa and ply planes. Mike Hester's and Mark Hunt's planes are proving that. Personally, if I throw the wings and stabs out and build an accurate set from foam and balsa, I will make weight easily with this plane and have a competitive plane to boot. The point is that with the right kind of wing/stab set-up, EF can make this fuse into a true pattern plane. The cost should not be any higher than the 450$ price tag it currently sells for (+90$ shipping)

No reason why a purposely designed/built balsa/ply/foam model couldn't be competitive. I urge EF to go that route. Too many folks have for whatever reason decided that the all composite, painted in the mold, full of bling plane is WHAT THEY NEED...WRONG!!!

I also want to urge the flying leaders in this sport to rethink their approach to models being offered. 25 years ago we had superb kits of the popular winning designs that could be built. I hear the argument that people don't have time to build. Well, Hester and Hunt designs have sold how many planes in the past 3-4 years? Give the average modellers options and you 'd be surprised of the response

As far as entry level pattern is concerned, an area I think is very important (besides cost) is the ability to replace a damaged model quickly. Nothing slows a new pattern flier down more than having a crash and then searching for a replacement. If the entry level models are available quickly it would minimize the down time experienced after a crash. It might also prevent that new pattern pilot from having to switch to what the next 'available' plane might be and having to spend time familiarizing themselves with a different plane.

Woodie

A wood fuze probably is heavier than the fiberglass one. If the power system is electric (a trend?), the weight requirement is hard to meet with the wood type.

A kit version of Passport probably will sell very well because of the design. The reduced price will be compensated for by the quantity sold.

I myself am looking for a good 2X2 and do not want to worry about the mid-air of a $$$ airplane with other sports planes at my busy field. The power will be electric.

I'm in the boat right now. I've worn out my old pattern ship (hey 10 years isn't bad), it's just not capable of doing the P and F-11's capably, and so I've been on the hunt.

The fact is, anything that's remotely an upgrade is well over 2000 to buy, and proably another 500 to ship, which is more than I can afford, as I live in the world's most isolated capital city.

On that note, the old adage of "buy a used pattern ship and you're 8/10ths of the way there" may hold true in more densely populated areas of the world, but if you have a small pattern community in your town/state/country, you don't have a lot, sometimes no available aircraft for years at a time.

I'd welcome a cheaper, albeit heavier, version of a competition capable aircraft. I think you're on a winner.

Do you guys actually fly the F schedule over in Perth?[&:]

I've not been to a competition in Australia where the F schedule is flown yet. Wasn't flown at this year's Masters on the ANZAC weekend either...

Jason Shulman did a demo flight of the F schedule at last year's Masters but that's all it was, a demo...

Cheers
Jason.

There's no competition at the moment (afaik) , but it doesn't mean I'm not trying to fly it, albeit poorly. If you yell a schedule at me, I'll try to keep up!

The fact is I really can't get around the corners with the aircraft I have now. it's like trying to fly slope with a Westland Lysander, but that's a topic for another time.


My main point is; I'm sure I'm not alone, in the grander scheme of things. I'm sure there are guys out there either in the US or in other countries that would relish the chance to get their mits on a 98% capable aircraft, at a more justifiable price*. Either through a lack of available aircraft or a want to have something nearly as good as international echelon pattern aircraft.



* denotes justifiable to spouses, parents, significant others, bank managers etc etc.

You could be onto something here.There appears to be a hugh gapping hole in the pattern market: the space between the small .91 sized and the new (HUGE) full blown 1.70 (&e) sized models.There are a load of used, super friendly 1.40's out there... OS 2 strokes and the excellent, easy to use, realiable YS 1.40s.They're now, to small for todays comp' planes, yet to large for the small .91 so called entry models.What's needed is a great model geared to those simple, cheap(ish) and realiable engines. considerably bigger than the .91s... yet smaller than the 1.70s.It'ld make an excellent, real class act entry model and beyond. A decent size, and powered by a motor that many of the pro guys down at the field have had experience with... and even possible have laying around for sale.It would also give us hobby f3A guys, somethin' to new, a decent modern design that we can use without having to refinance the house, simply using the "old engines" we have laying around.Doesn't need to be NASA high tec, a straight forward good lookin' modern design, (canalyser-why not) that really does the job.I'd guess, you could make one so good, the pro's would have 'em as cheap knock-around models.

Of course, Extreme Flight have been announcing the 2 meter Vanquish for years now, and for years stating that it is "AVAILABLE SOON".
3D hobbyshop have also stated that they are working on something, planned for release this year.

But that is not really the point of this thread.
CA models already have the molds and tooling for the Passport, Visa etc. and want to utilise these to capture the biggest possible part of the market, including those customers that can't afford/justify the higher priced products, by offering a "Budget" version of these fine designs.

And that is all very good.

But as others have stated here, I don't think Chip is going far enough with the cost cutting. I do think that a large number of people are willing to do a bit of work themselves, including making/gluing formers etc., maybe even wing sheeting. (As far as I know, there are no formers glued in to the ZN line kits, but there will be quite a few Zigris models flying around the world this year. As delivered, they are just a big open, white fiberglass fuse.

Yes Chip, bring it on!
(What's the shipping to Norway?)
Magne

The wood fuse of the EF Extra is at least on par weightwise with composites, equipped the same.
There is extra weight in the stab because the model is intended to be used with electric powerplants and something needs to offset the batteries. Fin and rudder could be made lighter also. Wings are very large by pattern standard at around 1250 sq inches, yet each weighs in at 18 ozs rtf. Made smaller and lighter and of the correct design, it would work great as an inexpensive pattern set-up.

I certainly hope Chris Hinson takes a closer look at this and makes an alternative offering specific to pattern needs

Magne,

I know the point of the thread. I'd say to Hyde and Colombo, offer just the fuse. Make available wings or just foam cores, stabs or just foam cores, rudders or just foam cores, gear/pants ..... but don't necessarily included these unless the purchaser wants them. Charge accordingly; Give the guys flexibility