RE: Judging Question
 

As someone new to pattern with no direct experience on how this *might* be intepreted in practice, but having a spent a lot of my professional life determining what is meant by what is written, Ibelieve the existing rules do not adaquately address this issue. Here is why:

"A contestant accidentally threw in a roll between the end of a center maneuver and the beginning of his turnaround."

Here are the relevant rules Ifound:

<font size="2">

14.2:</p></font><font size="2"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman,Times New Roman">If a maneuver other than landing is done out of order it shall be scored zero (0). Judges may inform the contestant or helper that a maneuver has just been performed out of sequence. </font>

14.3:</p><font size="2" face="Times New Roman,Times New Roman">If an illegal pass (crossing a line perpendicular to and centered on the judges) is made, the maneuver which should have been executed shall be scored zero (0). </font>

14.4:</p><font size="2" face="Times New Roman,Times New Roman">After a contestant performs a wrong maneuver or makes an illegal pass, he/she shall then be judged on the remaining maneuvers in the schedule, provided they are executed in </font></font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman,Times New Roman">proper sequence, and in proper upwind/downwind orientation.</font>
<font size="2">

</font>From what the rules state, and ONLYfrom what the rules state:

14.2 applies ONLYIF a roll is defined as one of the maneuvers in the sequence and was in fact performed out of sequence.
14.3 DOESNOTAPPLYbecause there was no illegal pass.Amaneuver was performed (indeterminate if it was or was not part of the sequence)AFTERcompleting the define sequence centermaneuver and prior to the turn-around maneuver
14.4 is questionable and quite frankly uninterpretable. Why:it cites the term"wrong maneuver", and that term does not exist in either of 14.2 or 14.3. In fact, it exists NOWHEREELSEin the rules. Therefore, there is no correct interpreattion of what constitutes a "wrong maneuver"

Isuggest the rules committee issue an interim interpretation until the rules can be formally updated.
In doing so Iwould also suggest that the terms "out of sequence manuever" and "undefined manuever"be defined and used to express the required downgrade actions. An out of sequence maneiver is one that is part of the pattern being flown,but flown out of seqeuence. An undefined maneuver is one that is not part of the pattern being flown,but flown at any time during the time during which the flight is being judged (or something like that).

RE: Judging Question
 

The Regs are self explanatory. Please read the paragraph on TA maneuvers. Please don't make "interpretations" on this issue. The correct one is presented in the Regs and is the one I presented above

RE: Judging Question
 

Matt,

What about the most basic rule "wing level" and 1/15 rule. Clearly there was enough deviation from keeping wing level.

VB

RE: Judging Question
 

Here's an interesting question. AMA only.

If a competitor completes his 6th round and the CD weighs his airplane and it's above the max limit.

What is the penalty?

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

15 yards and loss of down?
:)

RE: Judging Question
 

Forgive me for posting as I do not fly pattern yet....
but have been very invloved in IMAC...

but this is the line from the AMA rules for RC Aerobatics:
Section 4
and the rule:

So, sounds like it is up to the CD to DQ the pilot

RE: Judging Question
 

Vince,

The 1/15 is one of the most basic downgrade rules in Pattern, that is true. Whether there was deviation from wings level or not, is not clear. And where in the flight are you talking about? I am not sure what you mean.

RE: Judging Question
 

Matt,

I am assuming also that between maneuvers in the schedule the plane has to fly parallel to runway with wings level. Clearly that did not happen.

Vince

RE: Judging Question
 

What is the penalty?

Loss of the enitre conest?

Last round flown?

Pattern has 4 rules for airplanes.

5k limit + 115 for adv/Int

Noise limit

Size limit

Voltage limit

Noise has a 5-10% score deduction per flight if noise is broken.

Voltage limit has a loss of round

Yet there is nothing spelled out for 2x2 or weight penalty infraction.

Here's what the rulebook says.....................



Wherever practical, all aircraft should be weighed prior to the start of the contest. If weight is being enforced then all planes competing in that class must be weighed before the same round (round 1 or otherwise) for a baseline. Only two attempts at making weight will be allowed on the day specified for weigh-in. If no calibration system is available for the scales, a tolerance of 50 grams will be allowed for possible inaccuracies in the measurement instrument. Random checks may be conducted at any time during the contest. An aircraft that has been damaged and repaired during the contest, after the initial weigh-in has been made, is subject to being reweighed. Repaired models failing the weight and/or size limits shall be disqualified for competition but recorded scores with the legal aircraft will stand.



Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

Yes... that is all in section 4...
and the first line of section 4 is:

I read that as it is up to the CD to DQ the pilot from the contest....

but the part about "could result" sure leaves some ambiguity.....

RE: Judging Question
 

There's a 5-10% score deduction for noise

There's a single flight zero for over voltage.

Why if found over weight on one flight is the pilot DQ'd from the entire contest.

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

Perhaps because it would indicate that something had been changed on the model subsequent to the initial weigh-in?

I have heard or read that some pilots who fly glow have put extra-large fuel tanks in their models so they can add fuel as ballast for windy conditions. Since the models are weighed without fuel, this would seem to make sense.

RE: Judging Question
 

I remember the first time I got fooled by someone throwing in a half roll at the beginning of a maneuver (exited the previous maneuver in the wrong attitude). I was pretty mad I got fooled, LOL. Think that was 2 years ago, first time judging a contest. I also remember last year, first time I realized I was messed up and continued rolling through a maneuver as if I was supposed to...one judge caught it but other didn't - felt pretty good!

I was told the 1pt for every 15deg rule, and it makes sense that a half roll will wipe the score down to zero.

The way I interpret this: Pilot exited maneuver properly and drew the finishing line - gets credit for that maneuver regardless of whether or not he thought he made a mistake. Correction happened at entry to next maneuver - gets zeroed.

Looking forward to next judging clinic, my first in D4 (if I can ever make to a flying field! Sadly not flying much yet.)

RE: Judging Question
 

If the weigh-in occurs immediately after the 6th round of a 6-round contest it would seem to me only the 6th round could be zeroed because there is no proof of what the aircraft weighed in the previous rounds.

RE: Judging Question
 

Wow, I was wondering when this one was going to come out. I knew it was, but wasn't sure when. Anyway, I know the issue is at the NATS. No one weighs anything at local contests. I will give you the reasoning behind how it is done at the NATS. It is 100% LOGISTICS. Currently, and as far as I know, this is how it will be done this year. All the Masters and FAI guys are weighed the night before the finals. Intermediate and Advanced guys in contention are weighed either the next to last day, or the last day. This is done by guys who are actually flying in the contest, but volunteer to help with the scales and such. The scales are made available all week to competitors to verify the weight of their planes, and if you are overweight, you are DQ'd from the contest. People on this thread apparently want every plane, processed every flight, but I will ask them, are YOU going to be the one to do it. For that to happen, there will have to be paid people, who can not fly in other classes because of time limitations to do this on each site each day. Also, a tent will have to be setup to take every plane to, to verify weight without the wind issues. If you guys are happy paying 300-400 dollars for your entry fee, I'm sure it can be accommodated. Currently, the only planes that get processed are planes that belong to pilots how have a chance to place in any class. There is NO way logistically to do this before each round. I realize, it is done at the Worlds, but look at the worlds fee, and the number of dedicated people who are there just helping. There is no way the NSRCA, or AMA could sustain that without passing the cost along to the competitors. I realize the argument can be made that the pilot can change anything in other rounds and be over weight, and that is true. There is really nothing stopping someone from changing something after being weighed, but there is only so much that can REALISTICALLY be done. If the scales are provided throughout the week for contestants to verify their weight, and are told how it works prior to the contest, then I'm not sure what else can easily be done. There is no way to wait to the finals and just zero that round, because then you would HAVE to weigh every plane, every flight, and its hard enough getting people to help out at the NATS now.

This type of measuring works well in other disciplines. In pylon, only the top planes have their motors torn down and looked at after the contest...Why??? Well, because if you cheat and finish 32, no one really cares. The same is true in pattern. It is to decide the national championship, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to process every single plane.

What amazes me, is the number of people who want to complain about the rules and how things run, but yet, NONE are NSRCA board members, or on most of the committees. If people want to make a difference, or see things change, then run for office, rather than sitting at home on the internet complaining about it. I will openly admit, that the last year of being an NSRCA VP and understanding how difficult and time consuming that is, and then reading people complain about how things work, has really worn on me.

I understand how the rules are stated, the issue becomes enforcing them. If guys are willing to pay 3-4 times their NATS entry fee to justify paying the additional help, I'm sure it can be done, but until that time, there is only so much that can be accomplished. There is NO reason to change the rules, just because you can't enforce them 100% of the time. All you will do then is drive people away. Many VERY good people in the pattern community have already been driven away by the constant bickering of people, and for years, it had mostly gone away, but it is definitely coming back. If you have a complaint, fine, but then have a solution as well and don't make that solution, lets get rid of the rules. Currently, every plane that is in contention to take home a trophy gets weighed, and processed at some point, and people are explained how it works before hand.

If you want more than that, then be willing to stand up and volunteer to do the work. A lot of people give up their vacations in the summer to come help out at the NATS and make it as good an experience as they can on a VERY limited budget. We need to start thanking those people rather than complaining about how it works, unless you want to be the person to take their place.

Arch

RE: Judging Question
 

Amen
VB

RE: Judging Question
 

Again, I have not competed in Pattern as of yet... but as mentioned, am quite involved in IMAC, so I'm trying to learn....

but I would see it as this
Seems pretty straight forward.
But again, this is just going by limited knowledge.




Arch, as an IMAC board member, Regional Director, Sequence Committee member, and judging instructor... I 100% understand your post.

RE: Judging Question
 

It would seem to me, that if the rules do not define the penalty and the CD has discretion to do so then the pilot is DQ's because of the issue. It clearly states NO model shall be more than 2X2, and that if weight is being enforced, all planes will be weighed during the same round (paraphrasing). With the sentence starting with NO, then that would lead me to believe that the penalty is disqualification. The other issues, clearly state the specific penalty. Also, PRIOR to the NATS, the CD CLEARLY states the penalty at the meeting.

Arch

RE: Judging Question
 

The NATS report from Rusty Fried(NATSCD) on the home page of nsrca.us clearly states the penalty for not meeting the weight/size requirements. I'm sure this will be reiterated in the pilot's meeting as well.


<span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 14px;">"If your aircraft doesn&rsquo;t meet the requirements for your class on a flight line check, you will be disqualified from the NATs so make <u>sure</u> your aircraft meets the rules for weight and dimension. The best way to ensure this doesn&rsquo;t happen to you is to take advantage of the voluntary inspection. Don&rsquo;t forget that Intermediate and Advanced have an allowance of 115 grams over the usual 5000.</span></span>"


John

RE: Judging Question
 

Those downgrades are guides, according to the rules. The rule actually states that "the downgrade assigned should be proportinal to the percentage of the maneuver that is out of the area. "

RE: Judging Question
 

Arch,

I agree with the logistics as being the big issue and agree the way things are done currently is the best way.


I just fail to understand why when we have 4 rules to govern pattern planes only two have spelled out penalties. The others are at the discretion of the CD. Weight can change between the first and last round, even borrowing a friends airplane to complete the contest could result in a disqualification. Seams harsh to me.

I'm just voicing my opinion that the rule should be in writing as is the noise and voltage rule.

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

Tim
We are obviously going to disagree. I dont think every rule should have the same weight. The way it is written now justifies not weighing planes at every contest. The rule seems very clear to me. If you want it written differently then submit a rules proposal.

Arch

RE: Judging Question
 

Arch,

Based on your long-winded response I think you assumed that everyone thinks all aircraft should be weighed immediately after every flight. What I said was you have no evidence that the aircraft was over-weight on any flights but the 6th flight in this hypothetical scenario, and therefore only the one round should be zeroed.

I really don't care about the logistics of the Nats, and wasn't commenting on anything Nats-related (from what I read, neither was anyone else). What I care about is what you can prove about the weight of someone's airplane at this hypothetical contest. Maybe the airplane was damaged on landing in the 5th round and the repair made him overweight for the 6th. If the rules stated that ANY failure to make weight would disqualify all rounds, then fine, but they don't. The rules state: "Wherever practical, all aircraft should be weighed prior to the start of the contest. If weight is being enforced then all planes competing in that class must be weighed before the same round (round 1 or otherwise) for a baseline." (Emphasis added) Logistics aside, weight should be checked PRIOR to any flying being done, and probably one more time at some point in the contest. Again, I couldn't care less about the logistics of the Nats.

The only time the rule book mentions weighing after the contest has started and the penalty associated with it is here: "Random checks may be conducted at any time during the contest. An aircraft that has been damaged and repaired during the contest, after the initial weigh-in has been made, is subject to being reweighed. Repaired models failing the weight and/or size limits shall be disqualified for competition but recorded scores with the legal aircraft will stand." Now, unfortunately for the purposes of this argument the rule book does not say what happens upon failure to meet weight mid-contest in a "random check" but one can infer that the intent was to have it be the same as an aircraft that has been repaired since it followed immediately afterwards.

Simply put: you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT penalize a pilot for something you have no evidence of. If the decision is made to not weigh anyone until the very end, then you can only disqualify forward, not retroactively. If the choice is made to not weigh-in until a particular point in the contest, then the CD has taken it upon himself to assume that all aircraft met specifications at the start of the contest.

RE: Judging Question
 

I normally stay quiet during these discussions but this one is interesting. If I say the sky is blue, an argument will start over what shade it is.

During the 20+ years I served on the AMA R/C Aerobatics Contest Board, I learned that:

Very, very, very, very, very few people ever take the time to submit a rule proposal.
Very, very few ever read the proposals during the review and voting period and only a small percentage of those ever offer a comment.
Nearly everybody complains about the rules when they are published.

I feel for Arch! I've been there too!

Tom Miller

RE: Judging Question
 

Tim,
As an NSRCA board member, I'd like to just say a few things.  We work VERY hard to make as many people happy as possible.  You and I both know it is impossible to make everyone happy which is what several have basically said but especially Mr. Miller.

I believe the reason why some rules are left to the CD's discretion is because at the local contest level, we want to promote pattern not detract from it.  I believe that if we followed the rules to the dotted "i", local contests would be few and far between.  I also believe that this is exactly why we allow Sportsman to fly any AMA legal aircraft.  At Jetero, they let a guy fly a giant 42% SBACH and it was absolutely gorgeous both in looks and flight.  We need to promote this sport and our group instead of detract from it.  Let me make this very clear, Tim, you definitely promote our sport.  You and I agree on many posts and I have never seen a time where Arch and I disagree (he just says it before me).  I just believe at the local level, things need to be at least a little more laid back and not so critical or none of us are going to get better, have fun, or get more people to participate.  If the local contests were so big that we were limiting entries or only getting in 3 rounds in two days and you had 20 people in every class, then ok, we need to figure something else out.  CD's have the ability to make the decision based on what he/she thinks is best for the contest as a whole and how to continue promoting his/her event.  That's why some things are specifically laid out and others are not in my opinion.

Please understand the reason for me chiming in is not to criticize anyone's comments, especially Tim's, but to just explain why some rules are specific and some are not in my opinion.

Scott<br type="_moz"/>