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Electric Vs Engine.
Hi,
The reason to start this thread is my simple question to you all with regards to fly F3A FAI class which is really better Electric or Glow. Hope to get many more answers here. I personally have flow small electric planes but never F3A size plane. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Only you can answer which is better for yourself; either choice is very capable. As for which is more popular, please see the Contestant Equipment List posted at nsrca.us/index.php/nats2012
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
The Summer Olympics are on and an impressive record was set. I recall reading in an interview recently that he said he once practiced, was in the pool, everyday for a 5 year stretch! I was inspired by that and believe that the top pilots who win at the FAI level also practice everyday, or nearly daily. Perhaps the best motor is the one that is reliable to fly the schedule 6 times a day, 6 days a week? Just imagine trying to squeeze in a few flights after work with a motor that does not perform consistently, how is that going to work? Any time lost to tuning or trimming detracts from the practice and time cannot be gotten back. Consistent performance becomes basic at that level of effort, IC or electric. It's a man and machine thing and both have to work consistently to achieve that level of performance. The guys who get glow to that level of consistent performance amaze me. <div>
</div><div>That said, there have been hundreds of times that I have been at a flying field and completed 4 or more electric flights while a glow motor was either starting up or having mixtures set. This is not the case at the top, but clearly a challenge for many aspiring pilots who are losing flight time to tuning. We will all be tuning our set-ups as we progress in pattern skills, but I think the balance of time spent flying rather than tuning or trimming is also key.</div> |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: danamania The Summer Olympics are on and an impressive record was set. I recall reading in an interview recently that he said he once practiced, was in the pool, everyday for a 5 year stretch! I was inspired by that and believe that the top pilots who win at the FAI level also practice everyday, or nearly daily. Perhaps the best motor is the one that is reliable to fly the schedule 6 times a day, 6 days a week? Just imagine trying to squeeze in a few flights after work with a motor that does not perform consistently, how is that going to work? Any time lost to tuning or trimming detracts from the practice and time cannot be gotten back. Consistent performance becomes basic at that level of effort, IC or electric. It's a man and machine thing and both have to work consistently to achieve that level of performance. The guys who get glow to that level of consistent performance amaze me.<div> </div><div>That said, there have been hundreds of times that I have been at a flying field and completed 4 or more electric flights while a glow motor was either starting up or having mixtures set. This is not the case at the top, but clearly a challenge for many aspiring pilots who are losing flight time to tuning. We will all be tuning our set-ups as we progress in pattern skills, but I think the balance of time spent flying rather than tuning or trimming is also key.</div> |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: highfly3D Hi, The reason to start this thread is my simple question to you all with regards to fly F3A FAI class which is really better Electric or Glow. Hope to get many more answers here. I personally have flow small electric planes but never F3A size plane. Or you can go with YS first, and then go electric.:D |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Most common mistake I see that people are doing with Glow (YS) is they don't know how to leave the thing alone. It does not take a 170 or 175 peeked to the N'th degree to get through these patterns.
Get them set and leave them alone.. A properly tuned YS should get 8 to 12 cases of fuel before needing a rebuild. Gary |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
It all depends, for example some electrics are having problems if it is hot or windy, that happened in the Nats and on the Europeans(ongoing) on a windy day, one of the spanish pilots ran out of battery missing the las two manouvers on one P round, most will think he does not know how to fly, but he is in the semi finals, so can't be bad, but the important detail is any electric is good enough to fly any schedulle, it is just a matter of battery capacity for the intended flight agains the airplane weight to be legal. As any airplane over 11Lbs can't be considered competitive.
I am very happy with both electric an YS, but preffer YS, extremely reliable engine and there is nothing that compares to the power of the 175 in my opninion, but there is a opinion for everyone, including those who do not compete. It will be interesting to see what happens today and tomorrow in the EC, I am sure for South Africa there will be new batteries as they are struggling now in certain conditions, and not knowing if a pilot can finish the new Unknowns in a hot/windy day cannot be good, but again, it depends on many factors, and I ran out ouf batteries only once, and not shure why yet(but I was setting the airplane), but so far, three flame outs and one single mechanical problem in five years is pretty good for my YS's. Another example is CPLR said F3A is to be flown with IC engines, as well as Mayr is doing the change, heard of some top pilots who think about going YS again, but time will tell. Regards |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
You guys still run 30% with the 175's?
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
I agree with apiera and Gary. They BOTH work. They both work well, but they both have their differences. What you can't do is compare a cheap electric setup to a YS or a cheap glow setup to a top end electric. To do either right, it will cost you. The key to a YS is what Gary said. Get it right and don't touch it. Sometimes it may sound slightly different, but leave it alone. Once it warms up it will be fine. If something major changes, don't chase the needles. It is trying to tell you something.
Bottom line is they both work well, but just like anything else designed for performance, they will both have their problems. Arch |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
You can run 30%, but with 23% oil, you should not use it with low oil, but the 175 is designed to be used with 25%, but the oil content is 18%, so in my opinion both work the same as there is really not much difference between them.
One good thing on the 175 is that is so ridiculously powerfull you can fly with even less nitro, I think the engine will outperform almost all other engines with 15% nitro. This lowers the operating cost and it has the newest upgrades in the pump and it is the easiest to set so far. Regards |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
would it be possible to fly the YS with only 15% nitro?? just asking..
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Yes, Actually from 0 to 25% Nitro and from 10 (not as per the manual as the engine will not last the same) to 23% synthetic oil. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: highfly3D would it be possible to fly the YS with only 15% nitro?? just asking.. Adrian |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Me and my dad have identical biplanes, one is electric and the other ys... When its calm, my 4150gram electric biplane is amazing. Its powered my a neu inrunner (cant remmember the specs) and Iuse hobby king 5000batteries. When it gets windier, my dads ys 175cdi powered biplane is a breeze to fly. Its alsovery goodwhen its calm. So my conclusion is, is that ys is better, especially the new 175, which has 150 flights so far and is incredibly reliable. In calm conditions, the electric biplane is just 1% better. The elctric biplane was just an experiment, but when we make our composite biplane for next year I'll have mine run a ys.I'm missing the ys growl when I'm flying my electric...</p> |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
:D:D
It never seizes to amaze me that all the electric blokes are trying every way they can to convert everyone to electric power............why is it so It just so happens that in my club we have two young girls that fly ....... and yes both electric.I asked one of them one day why she didnt use glow and her reply was that she didnt understand the complexity of an internal combustion engine and that the fuel didnt agree with her hand cream and nail polish. I guess now days the young seek instant glorification with minimum effort hence the electric mentality. Personally I find it a lot more satisfying getting my 4 stroke to run like a sawing machine......which it does......yes it does take a bit of effort but it is what makes this hobby so enjoyable.Lets not forget why we got into this hobby......we all like to tinker in our workshops. I fly Airbus 320 for living and trust me there is nothing more exciting than getting out to the flying field...... starting that 4 stroke and trying to fly a perfect loop regards:D Mavros |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
I'd wager the vast majority of guys flying electric have a ys background. Me, I could care less which someone runs.
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Electric power is the reason I returned to the hobby as adult. Given the amount that I have spent in the past 3 years, EP must be good for the hobby!<div>
</div><div>I started flying contests last season, a few IMAC basic (didn't suit me), and a few pattern meets. This year I decided to stick just to Pattern. EVERY contest I have been to in these past 2 years has had at least one IC deadstick per contest, and at least two of those this season alone resulted in extensive damage to the model (vs. no electric deadsticks). These were not newcomers to the sport, like me, but experienced, seasoned pattern flyers who are competitive. One fellow I know has made the decision to come over to the dark side and try electric. I guess that is an easier move to make when the glow bird is grounded for rebuild. Over the course of these same 8 contests to date, I have not met or heard of a single pilot talking about going back to YS. True this is anecdote - and a sample of convenience with no statistical power, no doubt - but my observation from within my parts of D1 is that the move FROM YS to electric is still occuring, albeit at a glacial pace. So much for this limited data LOL!</div><div> </div><div>Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.</div> |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: danamania div><div> </div><div>Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.</div> I must say I've been having a ball with my gassies. The latest, the OS33GT, is the best of the lot easily performing as well on the same props as the YS170 and 175 do. Except, it's cheap petrol which it sips rather than guzzle it down. I fly with an 8oz tank in my plane and get 32 Masters maneuvers out of a tankful, nearly two whole schedules per flight. In addition, simple starts and practically no maintenance, signatures both of present day gasoline power Here's the rub...I don't fly as well as I used so folks see it and don't really take it seriously because of my flying stinking up the place. But this is a serious powerplant for Pattern planes and deserves more than just passing consideration. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: MTK ORIGINAL: danamania div><div> </div><div>Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.</div> I must say I've been having a ball with my gassies. The latest, the OS33GT, is the best of the lot easily performing as well on the same props as the YS170 and 175 do. Except, it's cheap petrol which it sips rather than guzzle it down. I fly with an 8oz tank in my plane and get 32 Masters maneuvers out of a tankful, nearly two whole schedules per flight. In addition, simple starts and practically no maintenance, signatures both of present day gasoline power Here's the rub...I don't fly as well as I used so folks see it and don't really take it seriously because of my flying stinking up the place. But this is a serious powerplant for Pattern planes and deserves more than just passing consideration. The inverse of the 'rub' is as relevant. By this I mean if AJ had used it to win your Nat's it would be taken very seriously. It takes a big effort to go an untraveled road. There are innovators, some of who do it just to see what's what, and there are followers. How often is CPLR wheeled out as the final and or the ultimate affirmation that YS is best. I hope hope he doesn't desert his flock any time soon. Brian Brian |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
My reasoning for flying electric is simple. Firstly, I have an electric field 10 minutes from my house. To get to an IC friendly field, I have at least a 40 minute drive. Additionally, I don't have to clean up the mess. Lack of vibration means I'm beating up my airframe and servos less even when using Merle Hyde's amazing mounts. Simplicity of operation (ease of use, and less support equipment). Generally I can take the airplane, transmitter, and battery packs to the field and not need anything else. Reliability is hard to match. I know people have had excellent results with YS, but I feel electrics are much easier to understand and operate. Cost is also a factor. Nitro is never coming down in price again. It's expensive to manufacture and isn't environmentally friendly, which only raises prices due to HazMat fees, transport costs, etc. Batteries will only get cheaper in the long run. And quite honestly, I don't like the sound of the engines anymore. I MUCH prefer the quiet hum of electrics.
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
During the summer months when there is light after work, I can challenge myself to get out to the airfield for a few practice flights. I have been doing this every day, to every other weekday for the last two months straight. The "convenience" of electric makes this possible for me. The practice make it possible to compete AND progress (or at least maintain newly learned skills long enough to stick). The extra practice time is needed to learn the Intermediate schedule while continuing to rehearse the Sportsman one I can fly in a contest today (and those 2 darn loops LOL). I have nothing against IC, but the convenience of electric is an instrumental part of the whole pattern competition effort that is hard to separate out at this point. Last night I got in 3 flights between a DLE dead stick and the arrival of another gasser & sunset. Not pattern planes true, but if it took any more time & effort, practicing after work would not be practical. We might not disparage convenience, or relegate that to the fairer pilots, if convenience is viewed as a competitive advantage. No reason to come over to the dark side really, just the way we roll after work. Cheers!
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: serious power Hi Matt, The inverse of the 'rub' is as relevant. By this I mean if AJ had used it to win your Nat's it would be taken very seriously. It takes a big effort to go an untraveled road. There are innovators, some of who do it just to see what's what, and there are followers. How often is CPLR wheeled out as the final and or the ultimate affirmation that YS is best. I hope hope he doesn't desert his flock any time soon. Brian Brian |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Matt,
I followed the old thread on the Syssa 180, where you were adapting that engine to pattern. Understand that Syssa is coming out with an improved version that addresses some of the issues, relative to pattern, that were identified. That aside, how does the 33 GT perform as a pattern engine? Thanks John |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: F-4 Matt, I followed the old thread on the Syssa 180, where you were adapting that engine to pattern. Understand that Syssa is coming out with an improved version that addresses some of the issues, relative to pattern, that were identified. That aside, how does the 33 GT perform as a pattern engine? Thanks John The only thing missing is the rear exhaust porting which I hope to see soon. But I'd bet OS will jack the price up too, just as DLE did with their 35cc RA Edit: I have also used the DLE55 for pattern and this is, by far, the best powerplant I have ever used or tried in a pattern plane. But it also has 60% greater displacement and 20% greater weight (at least my lightened version has that weight). It should not be confused with and be considered in the 30cc class of powerplants tho |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Thanks, Matt. Appreciate your comments.
John |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: danamania Electric power is the reason I returned to the hobby as adult. Given the amount that I have spent in the past 3 years, EP must be good for the hobby!<div> </div><div>I started flying contests last season, a few IMAC basic (didn't suit me), and a few pattern meets. This year I decided to stick just to Pattern. EVERY contest I have been to in these past 2 years has had at least one IC deadstick per contest, and at least two of those this season alone resulted in extensive damage to the model (vs. no electric deadsticks). These were not newcomers to the sport, like me, but experienced, seasoned pattern flyers who are competitive. One fellow I know has made the decision to come over to the dark side and try electric. I guess that is an easier move to make when the glow bird is grounded for rebuild. Over the course of these same 8 contests to date, I have not met or heard of a single pilot talking about going back to YS. True this is anecdote - and a sample of convenience with no statistical power, no doubt - but my observation from within my parts of D1 is that the move FROM YS to electric is still occuring, albeit at a glacial pace. So much for this limited data LOL!</div><div> </div><div>Now Matt (MTK) has a gasser or two he flies pattern with, his own designs, and has bought a Vanquish to convert to gas. This interests me much more as I have a stock electric one. As far as IC goes, could it be that gas is the future, not nitro? Anyway, I am not yet inclined to haul a gasser in my used Volvo wagon, but as it ages and starts to smell like old car, who knows right? A slimer? Not likely, I just don't enjoy the mess, smell, noise, etc.</div><div> </div><div>Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started. Sometimes I am even done for the day before a glow bird gets in the air. True, most of these are NOT YS, but this repeated experience at the flying field reinforces for me, at my level of experience, that the time is better spent as stick time in the air on electricity, rather than throttle time on the ground messing with glow fuel (after all , I am a flyer not a mechanic). All just my opinion and observations of course, to each his/her cherished own in this great hobby we share.</div> My experience from watching people down at the field with gassers is that they basically almost never dead stick, if you look at properly set up name brand engines I would say never dead stick at all. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Hello
Danamania wrote :"Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started ..." My own experience on field : CDI engine start easily. With my 5 liter fuel I can stay the day on the field and can do 8 flights of 18 mn to 20 mn. Friends of mine when finished their 3 or 4, "7 mn electric flights", they cannot fly because no charged batteries. So they ask me to lend my plane to fly with. Claude |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Bonjour Claude,
ORIGINAL: papaone Danamania wrote :"Oh, and I usually get at least 2-4 flights in while the glow guys are getting set-up and started ..." At the contest I entered this past weekend there were no YS deadsticks which was good. What was not good was a friend and competitor flying YS had to abort a flight as the belly pan on his plane came loose from vibrations and made the plane unstable. When he landed, he found that he had not properly secured the belly pan and so this was not due to the vibrations from the YS at all. OTHO many more parts, moving parts, and vibration working things loose on any IC powered aircraft compared to electric power: this can add to the challenges on contest day at the cost of a win, no? My friend already purchased two, 2m electrics for next season and will keep his favorite YS powered model for sentimental reasons. What I have learned is that one needs to be an excellent mechanic as well as an excellent pilot to be competitive with YS powered pattern planes, and one must have the time to perform detailed maintenance as well as practice the schedules, no?<br type="_moz" /> |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Hi,
I was at our National Championships this weekend. The leading pilot was flying a YS CDI. During an F flight he got a dead stick. On landing he found his throttle servo was toast. He replaced the throttle servo and went to fly the next round of the comp. On throttle up the plane went crazy, luckily it was being held at the time. The culprit was found to be a broken ignition cap causing interference. Luckily even though he scrubbed 2 rounds he managed to win the title despite all his issues. He spent at least an hour on his hands and knees over his YS. I personally think the thing about Electric v Engine for me is that I am never worried about my electric starting or more importantly stopping. If you set it up correctly and manage your battery correctly and monitor how they are behaving then you rarely have an issue. I just never had that feeling when I flew IC Just my observations as a "former" YS pilot . Niall |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Hello Niall,
What was the final classification for South Africa if I may ask? Regards Alejandro |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: apereira Hello Niall, What was the final classification for South Africa if I may ask? Regards Alejandro South Africa ?? Thats next year isn't it. Unfortunately electrics do not let me see into the future :) Niall |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Niall,
I think he question was: is your National Championship also the team selection for next years WC in SA - if so what was the result. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: SAB Niall, I think he question was: is your National Championship also the team selection for next years WC in SA - if so what was the result. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Pattern is a Flying endeavor. It doesn't require that anyone have magical mechanical capability or ability to build their own stuff. In fact the rules allow assistance for any mechanical matters and serious teams (one pilot and one assistant, or, in the case of World teams, each pilot has his own assistant) often have an expert mechanic on hand. The rules also specifically prohibit flying assistance......
Electrics enable the assistant (mechanic) to become simply a caller. If the assistant can also serve as a maintainer of all equipment and systems, all the better. One would be hard pressed to find any team however that doesn't have as serious an assistant as the pilot in all matters of maintaining the pilot's ability to compete with minimal effort. |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Hi Matt,
For the majority of people it is a sole en-devour. This is true for most 'team' members also. Only countries like the US and Japan send real mechanics. Without successful individuals most countries would struggle to put up a team. How much electric can benefit this remains to be seen. I think is is visible in our little country at this stage. Brian |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Brian,
That's a good point. Although individual flying teams are allowed (one pilot one caller) by the rules, not everyone can use the allowance to full advantage. But some, maybe even many, can! |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
In fact, Pilot/Caller teams are not recognized by the FAI in the F3A event. And the AMA does not pay for the caller/mechanic of a team pilot.
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RE: Electric Vs Engine.
Thank you SAB, that was the question,
I got the results on Google already |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
ORIGINAL: apereira Thank you SAB, that was the question, I got the results on Google already Can you post a link please . Brian |
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
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