RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Thanks Tony that's interesting, so with a little break in between flights, with 2 packs you could fly forever.
Steve

Flying time
 

Steve: I only flew 10 minute flights in Poland. I did fly a flight for 12 minutes once there while doing some of the unknown maneuvers. I believe flying 2 patterns is not a problem, and very little concern in the near future.

How about conversion to electric
 

Maybe Jason, Troy or Tony can answer this. It may have already been asked, but forgive me if it has...

I have Sean M's backup Angel Shadow that came in around 10lbs rtf. It has a DZ with Hatori and JR Digital's throughout. Can this plane be CONVERTED to the new electric Hacker motors/batteries or should I start from scratch. (Maybe the batteries can hide in the pipe tunnel?) As you know, the AS is quite expensive and I'd hate to give up this great flying plane just to convert to electric. However, I'm fascinated with the new technology and would really like to try electric pattern.

PS I'm not much of a builder, but can "assemble" much!:D

John Johnson, Lubbock, TX

RE: How about conversion to electric
 

Its EASIER to convert from glow to electric if you do it durring initial construction. It also turns out lighter.

You can convert a model that has ben previously flown with a glow engine installed... You'll have a bit of trouble getting the cutting tools in to do the lightening work. the batteries don't necessarilly have to be bunched in one pack... you can series wire multiple packs of the same rated cells with heavy guage wire.

The pipe tunnel location for the pack may be an excelent idea... as it should be relatively easy to direct cooling air over the batteries. (there's air inlet holes in the cowl... and an outlet hole where the pipe exited already ;) ) Just be sure the batteries themselves don't block off the airflow...

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

I'm really not familiar with the Angel's Shadow construction, but my opinion is that it is harder to do a light conversion with a model that has a belly pan. With an electric, there is no need for that, and in fact it makes it a requirement to install the batteries by removing the pan, sort of a nuisance. It's much easier to simply remove the canopy hatch and install them through that. In fact, in the Partner my canopy hatch is held down with a BVM hatch latch, making it really easy.

I have a PL Lazulite kit, and if I build it for electric I will glue the pan on and cut out the divider. Have to come up with some neat arrangement to lower the LG mount, also. With the AS conversion, you will need much longer LG legs to clear that 22" prop.

I'm sure some will do conversions of existing glow models, but IMO you won't see the real benefits until you build an electric specific model. If I were you I'd enjoy that nice Angel's Shadow as it is, and maybe think about a new model for electric. I'm hoping the coming Piedmont Splendor will be suitable.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

I've heard the Splendor will be an open pipe tunnel design similar to the Focus.. I hope not.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

As far as weight goes.. it's too bad the weight limit isn't setup for a fueled aircraft at maybe 12 pounds. The electric clearly has the advantage here as there is no weight change through the flight, no lean runs, blown plugs, etc.

I believe YS and OS should be very nervous by these developments. When an electric system comes in UNDER the price of a YS 1.60DZ, lookout. It's not too far off I think.

Electrified Angels Shadow
 

I too have an AS (OS) and am finishing one up for a friend (YS). I don't think it will be easy to convert, mostly because there is hardly any room to work on the firewall to convert it. Also, the batteries in the bottom of the fuse will be a BIG pain to get to through the chin, and I don't think there is any room to get them in through the canopy. If you've got one that light on glow, I'd leave it....

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Just an update,

I now have 45 flights on the model. The power system has been flawless. I am still learning about support equipment, mainly the size of the source battery for charging at the field. It takes a BIG one. I bought a 130 amp/hour deep cycle 12 volt lead/acid battery, and in 3 charges of the model's packs it's down. So then I go fishing for cars in the parking lot that have strong batteries! Got to be careful, easy to drain them to where you can't start the car. But this is just small points to learn.

My Orbit chargers seem to be working great. I really like the rugged construction, and while they may be a little slow to fully charge the pack, in 40 minutes or so the pack is charged enough to fly. I will get another Orbit Pro, so I'll have two capable of 8 amp charge rate.

The motor/controller have been perfect. It's hard to describe just how easy flying this is. Just install the charged pack, point the model down the taxiway, turn it on, move the throttle trim up to where the controller starts the motor, and your off. Need to delay the take-off? Just move the trim down to shut-off the motor. Turn it back on when you can go. After the flight, taxi back, turn off the radio, remove the batteries to charge and your done. No kneeling in front to start. No mixture adjustment. No cleaning the model. Etc., etc. I don't know how it gets any simpler.

I could not be happier with the flight performance to date. I really think for a 2 meter pattern model it is as nearly perfect as I have ever seen. Smooth, predictable power all the time. No flame-outs, no poor mixture settings, just consistent power output. Only time will tell just what issues the batteries may have, but so far it has been great.

The Partner is an exceptional design. My hat's off to Quique for the design, and to PL for an outstanding product. It is as good a pattern model as I have ever been hooked up with. In fact, it's really better. It's hard for me to distinguish between what the power system is adding to this and what is the model's design, but this package is exceptional.

Now one of the best points. I know many may say I have always been too picky about my servos. But for every glow model I have had since I quit using .60's, in 30-40 flights the aileron servo pots will have worn enough for me to feel. I've seen it too many times. So far, with 45 flights on the Partner, the servos are still good as new. OK, maybe that will sound more impressive when I have 200, 300, or 400 flights on it, but the trend so far is positive.

So far this has been nothing but a glowing report. What is the downside? So far, the only one I can see is cost. Getting everything you need to fly this size electric is not cheap. Set aside the motor/controller, as it is about the same as a top pattern motor/pipe/mount combo. But you're going to spend some real dollars on batteries, chargers, source batteries, the chargers for them, temperature sensors, IOW, electric infrastructure. Now if you really look at all the infrastructure you may own to fly glow models, it's not really a whole lot different. But it is a big bite all at once.

I really don't think that the electric will be the same cost as glow. I just think in the long run, it will be more expensive. Not a lot more expensive, but I don't think it will be equal for quite some time. I look at it as the cost of what I perceive as all the advantages. Just another thing to absorb to play the game.

All in all, I am very satisfied. It has really been a lot of fun. Can't wait to get started on the Lazulite.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Hi, TonyF

Congratulation for the success of your E-Partner.
Can you share with us your experience on the field charging such as appropriate size of batteries, charging sequences and any routine that you have developed to save time.

Thanks in advance

LoTOM

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Tony: Are you still considering trying different props to perhaps increase speed, or are you now used to and satisfied with the high thrust performance and lower speed using the 22" prop?

Mike M

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

LoTom,

I have two Orbit chargers, one a Luxury which has a 6 amp max charging current. The other is a Pro, which can charge at 8 amps. After a flight, I hook the two packs up to the Orbits set at 6 amp charge current. I'm using a 130 amp 12 volt deep-cycle marine battery for the source power. I really need a second one of those.

In about 30-40 minutes the packs are charged enough to fly again. I cuurently have two packs, so I'm flying while the other is charging.

Mike M,

I tried a 21-14 yesterday. It flew OK, a little faster in level flight. But the vertical, while still very good, was not as solid feeling as with the 22-12. Also, the downline braking was not as good. Right now I'm happier with the 22-12. I flew in some decent crosswind yesterday and the 22-12 set-up still worked very well.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Hi Tony,

This is a great thread. I've really enjoyed reading it. I am interested in your throttle usage when flying your electric plane through your sequence. More specifically how much throttle for horizontal lines, up lines and down lines.

See the picture below for my new electric powered 2 meter plane. I have about 30 flights on it now. I am using the same Hacker / Thunderpower setup your are using. While it's not a true pattern plane, I want to used it to fly some contests this year at the basic level.

Thanks in advance.

Matt

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Hi All,
This last weekend Tony graciously let me fly his E-Partner. I wanted make a short post regarding my experience with it because probably not a lot of people have exposure to this type of plane yet. The plane is silky smooth. Within a few maneuvers, I was getting used to it. The plane just seemed locked-on during pushes, pulls, and level flight. A couple phrases or analgies started to come to mind: 1. flying it felt like "waterskiing on perfectly smooth, glass water". 2. a few more minutes into the flight and the phrase, "its almost like cheating" came to mind. Very nice Tony, Thanks.
Jim W.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

I now have 62 flights on the model, and have had a chance to try some different props.

I tried an APC 24-12E prop. I didn't measure the current draw, but it is definitely quite a bit more. The temps on the controller and motor went up a bit. Performance was pretty good, with what I think is a bit better vertical, and ungodly downline braking. In fact, the downline braking is really a bit too much. I found myself adding power to increase the downline speed. It may be a good set-up if you want to fly a very slow, close pattern in calm conditions.

I then tried cutting this prop down some by clipping 3/4" off the tips and reshaping. The temps went down a bit, but while flying today in some very windy conditions, where I'm really using a lot more power, the controller over-temped and shut down. No damage, it has a temperature protection system in that shuts off the power. After gliding in, I turned off the R/C, turned it back on, and the motor worked perfectly.

If I'm going to run this sort of prop I'll need to do some re-arranging and ducting to get better cooling flow over the motor and controller. But quite honestly, the original 22-12E really flies the model well. Those watching the plane have a hard time telling what prop I have on it, the differences are really small. And the 22-12E runs the system at good, easy temps.

I've had more of a chance to fly in some windy, turbulent conditions, and I have to say the electric is giving up nothing in that situation. In fact, it may have an advantage, with really good speed control.

Another test I ran was current use on the R/C system. Using Hangar 9's current meter plugged between the battery and RX, we measured the draw on the Partner and a few glow models. Troy Newman's YS 1.60/Hyde mount Smaragd, measured 80 mah with the engine off, around 250 mah with the engine at idle, and 550-600 with the engine at full power. Troy, if you're reading this, please correct me if I got those numbers off. My Partner measured 80 mah motor off, 90 mah at idle, and 220-260 mah at full throttle. This is a real sign of the lower vibration. I think the load with the electric is more from the slipstream of the prop then vibration.

I'm going to make a prediction. In 5 years there will be more electrics flown at the Nats then glow. It is just too nice.

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

For source batteries for your chargers you might consider 2ea 6v golf cart batteries. Motorhomes went to these a long time ago because they give better duration than equivilant 12v batteries. I purchased 2 golf cart batteries that each weigh about 77 lbs. so lifting them individually is not a problem. I also purchased a nice marine battery box that houses both batteries together. I just leave these in the back of my Van most of the time, but have transferred them to other vehicles at times.

I haven't got lipoly's yet, but have been charging 32x2600 NiMH packs on my Schulze charger off the above batteries. Haven't run out of power yet, but probably haven't recharged more than 4 or 5 times at the field on any given day. Planning to get some of the next generation TP packs when they're released.

Norm

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

How much do the golf cart batterries cost?

What about a small generator? I saw one of these the size of a small beer cooler and it was very quiet.

These can be pricey too........

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2467251780

Add e b a y.c o m where the asterisks are in the link above and it will work (remove the spaces).

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Another source for golf cart batteries is Costco. I was there a few days ago and noticed they are carrying them along with regular car batteries.

Sam

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Actuals were 250ma at engine idle and 440ma at full power. Hyde AR mount.

The Jerry Budd's was the 550-600ma on the 2 stroke.

So much for the 2 strokes being softer on the plane. If current draw is any sign of vibration being transmitted. Definitely the frequencies are different...but regardless the servos in my YS 160DZ powered plane were working less. Not as little as the electric but still in a good range....

No motor running current draw on my model was 110-120ma....I'm carrying and extra servo for the throttle.

Guess thats the difference.


TN

RE: Golf cart batteries
 

Do a Google search on deep cycle batteries and look at comparison graphs and data on the different types. As to using small generators, I have one but wouldn't want to hear it run in the background all the time. I use mine at weekend fly-ins to recharge my batteries in the evening after a day of flying.

Norm

Generator
 

I run a small Honda 1000 watt generator and the noise just disappears. It's extremely quiet, light and reliable. I've owned mine for over 2 yrs charging 30 cell planes and now Lipos. It weighs 28lbs and is a lot more convenient than dealing with wet cell batteries. People are always shocked at how quiet the unit is. I've never had a complaint at an electric funfly and you certainly won't hear it at a glow field. Plus it's nice to have when the power goes out at home.

-- Kyle

RE: RE: RE: RE: Electrified Partner ...plus
 

Troy isnt Jerry Bud running a mixture servo plus the throttle servo, so he has one more servo than you, that might account for the difference in current draw at high RPM also.

RE: Generator
 

Kmashima,

The maximum current output of an Honda generator is about 8 amp. Could it handle the charging of large capacity LiPo batteries?

Thanks in advance?

LoTOM

RE: Generator
 

It's 1000 watts at 110v AC but I run 3 - 25 amp DC power supplies. I can charge 3 - 5s4p packs at 8 amps with no problems or 4 packs at slightly less amps. There's really no better option for easy, large battery pack charging. Particularly if you hang out at the field for 5 or 6 hours or need to attend an all day event.

-- Kyle

RE: Generator
 

In response to a question in another thread, I thought I'd give an update on my electric Partner.

I now have 126 flights on the model. It is flying great and I continue to be very pleased with the whole thing. I have had some learning curve issues and I'll go over them now.

Astro Flite makes a little device called a Whattmeter. You plug it in between the motor controller and a battery pack and it will tell you the volts, amps, watts and amp/hours you are consuming. It's a very useful device, but I never measured the Partner until just recently. This was a mistake as I will describe.

At around 50 flights I tried flying with an APC 24-12E prop. This is quite a bit larger prop then the 22-12E I had been flying with. I new it would pull more amps, but I never did install the Whattmeter and measure things. I did notice that the motor temps were getting higher, as I measured that with a little IR thermometer I got at Radio Shack. I had just assumed the higher temps were due mostly to the higher outside air temps we were having, since winter was ending. After about 6 or 7 flights with this bigger prop, during a flight the controller shut-off and I had to deadstick in. The controller has a protection circuit that will shut it off if the temps get too high. So I put the 22-12 prop back on and continued to fly.

My temps were still running a bit high, but they were still within what seemed to be OK numbers, but during flight 68, the controller fried itself. It burnt up completely, with smoke coming out of the model during the glide in. Hacker sent me another controller to install, but again I didn't measure the current consumption with the Whattmeter. The controller I was using was the Master 77, which is rated at 77 amps continuous. Remember that # for later.

Right after flight 107, when practicing on the Friday before the Riverside contest, the second controller burnt up. It happened on the ground right after I started the motor. This time Hacker express shipped me one of the new 90 amp controllers. I installed that in the model, it worked great, and I flew the contest. The power during all these problems was still great. Excellent performance at all times. But I did notice the higher temps of the motor and batteries.

So after the contest I decided to install the meter and measure the system. It was pulling 89 amps! No wonder I was blowing controllers. This set-up should have been pulling 65-67 amps at full power. I installed a new motor and the current draw went down to the expected 65 amps. Flying the model with the new motor showed much cooler temps on everything and still the excellent performance.

Turns out running that big 24-12 cause some high current draws with resulting high temps that partially demagnetized the motor. In this state, the motor will still put out good power, it will just pull a lot more current out of the batteries. This is what burnt up the two Master 77 controllers.

Lesson learned, use the Whattmeter from time to time to check the system performance. Use it when the system is new, and then use it whenever you make a change, like a different prop.

Controllers burning up is a bad thing. After the first time the controller went, all the servos in the model began to act up, then fail. Seems that when the controller went ballisitic, it sent a voltage spike through the throttle lead into the R/C system that damaged the amps in the servos. I had to replace all of them within 5 flights. So monitor that current draw and keep it at a safe level. And I would recommend the new 90 amp controller. It has a much better design and is now barely warm after a flight.

With this lesson learned, I am still very happy with this whole set-up. I now have the new Thunderpower 10c cells in the plane with a 10s3p pack and now the model is just under 11 pounds. It flies extremely well and I couldn't be happier. The no vibration, no oil, ease of operation has really made pattern flying a lot more fun for me. I will stay with electric.

Hope this helps!