RE: Pl Products
 

Mike,

Your sort of posts are one of the reasons I don't post here all that often. I don't really care to subject myself to your attacking, inflammatory style. You may call it whatever you want to, make a bunch of excuses for it, but it does nothing to solve anything, it only keeps the fires burning and pushes people away. But here are my last responses on this subject, after this have a ball.

You're statement,
In my opinion, they are garbage. As a package. I'm not faulting the quality of the glass work as a piece in itself, but there's much more to it. They have faults, and poor back up should you need it. That's not a good thing for competetive people. Yeah the quality of what you get is good, but $1600+ worth? No. Not hardly. If someone over here were making these things and the price was more reasonable, and you could GET parts when you needed them, that would be swell. But so far, it ain't happenin. IT IS A PROBLEM FOR US REGULAR PEOPLE.

My response,
You say they are garbage, then in the same paragraph you say the quality is good. Which one is it? You say they're not worth the money, then state that nothing equivalent is made here. Assuming of course that if a top quality, state of the art design was produced in the USA it would sell for less. Big, flawed assumption. Simply stated, the kits are worth it to whomever will buy them. Your opinion is exactly that, your opinion. You've made it over and over again. As for the REGULAR PEOPLE, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I paid the same for my PL kits as anyone else would.

You're statement,
As for "can't get a wood plane that light" that's hogwash. Use heavy wood, get a heavy plane. Use light wood, get a light plane. If you structure it correctly, it works. You're playing with electrics, that's a different ball game, you can afford to give up a lot of structure for weight. Shall I prove it can be done??

My response,
Yes, prove it. I heard Quique's Partners weigh 9.5 pounds. You build a wood one exactly the same size at that weight and I'll concede.

You're statement,
I'm glad your's and Troy's planes are holding out fine. Every one around here isn't. I have to make a new set of wings for a Hydeaway now, because the wing tube has wallowed out inside the wing and the support has broken through the skin. And that's with about 500 flights of masters. And this is the second in a row this has happened to. The sockets installed at the factory are too thin, and the supports are insufficient.

My response,
Last time I checked the Hydeaway's are ZN kits. But you lumped PL in with this sort of problem. I have seen too many PL models fly for many hundreds of flights with no problems. There is no epidemic of problems with their kits.

You're statement,
I'm fully aware of FAI being a different game. But not everybody plays it, it's not the be-all-end-all of pattern. How many people in the US ever actually fly F-05 in competition? Now apply that as a percentage to those that don't. Point.

My response,
Yea, and how many times is the unknown flown? They didn't even fly it at the 2003 Nats. But F3A is still the event with the best pilots and the most difficult programs. It demands the most from the equipment and the pilots. So therefore designs developed to compete at a top level in F3A will tend to be the state-of-the-art and cutting edge. Are state-of-the-art, cutting edge planes needed for everyone flying pattern? Absolutely not, in fact many would be better off without that. But many do desire them.

You're statement,
In 2003, Don won the Nats with a Focus. He beat a lot of ZN and PL planes to do it. Last I checked, that Focus wasn't made by PL or ZN, and it was wood. And it was FAI.

As for the worlds, well there's a lot more going on there than just flying, and you of all people should know that Tony. The Nats too, for that matter.

My response,
Don is a great pilot who had a great week at the Nats that year. But ask him what he will be flying this year. I don't think it will be a wooden Focus.

Have fun!

RE: Pl Products
 

Here's my ball :D BS. You must have a completely different definition of the word "attack" than I do. I've obviously upset you simply because I disagree with you, and you obviously have problems with the way I express myself. Tough turkeys. I thought we were discussing European kits and thier quality and service, not personal stuff about my posting style. I disagree strongly, are you not used to that?

I'll try to make this as crystal clear as I can. The quality of the PIECES, the GLASS WORK that you HOLD IN YOUR HAND when you open the box is good. Not so darned good it's worth $1600, but good. As a whole total package, what you get for $1600, is GARBAGE. It's light at the expense of structural integrity in various ares, the engineering is mediocre, and some of the material selection is questionable, at best. You said the kits are worth whatever people will pay for them. Didn't I spell that out in one of my very first posts on this subject on the first page? Yep. And therein lies the problem. It CAN be made for less over here, but it won't be. And I could care less because I don't want one. Yes I have stated this over and over, As for regular people, I was referring to those of us that do not fly pattern on a world level. Did you think I was going to bring up the "s" word? Troy flashbacks? ;) Nope.

Piece of cake. 9 flat is a bigger challenge, but 9.5 is VERY easy. For instance the fuse I'm working on currently is about the same size as a Partner, give or take a small fraction, and yet because of the method I chose to construct it, it's already 8 ounces lighter than the T2K fuses I previously built. The wing is much smaller too, so again it's lighter still. My last one came in at 9lbs 14ozs before all the fluff and doo dads. You're telling me I can't shave 6 ounces off a plane. How large of a bet are you willing to make? That would be fun :D

Really? Then why did the wing on Tony Stillman's Excellence do exactly the same thing? In fact his wing snapped and he lost the whole thing because of it. Last time I checked, who made the Excellence?

Then riddle me this batman: Why do the Japanese do so well at the worlds flying wood planes? That's a question I'd love for a euro kit cultist to answer. As for FAI, there's nothing in P-05 that is elemently different, airframe wise, than any other class. Yet.

No it'll be a Brio, because.....well we know why don't we? But don't try to say it's because it's not wood. That may have something to do with it, dunno never asked him, but I'm sure the primary factors involved were much more than the material teh airframe was made of.

Now I have to go flying before I bust. If "I'm" the reason you don't post here more, too bad. If you can't handle disagreement, don't get in an arguement.

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

Amen David, and thanks.

And now I'm outie, because much more and this thread is locked anyway. Time to go burn some fuel, the IMPORTANT stuff.

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

OK, perhaps I am overly sensitive. I just get tired of volume overriding sense. Comes from 30 years of pattern competition at a high level and seeing what works and what don’t. But since you’ve left so many holes in your argument, I can’t help myself.

You said,
As a whole total package, what you get for $1600, is GARBAGE. It's light at the expense of structural integrity in various ares, the engineering is mediocre, and some of the material selection is questionable, at best.

My reply,
Strictly your opinion, one not echoed by the vast majority of those who have bought, built and flown them. And it is certainly not my opinion. I don’t think I’ve ever seen better kits available, both in design and execution. And the price is reasonable, maybe not for you, but for many others.

You said,
How large of a bet are you willing to make? That would be fun.

My reply,
$250. Must be the same volume fuselage as a Partner, same wing and stab size, and no "stripped down" airframe. Complete with all the normal stuff, i.e. switch, reasonable size battery, normal servos, wheel pants, etc. Weighed on the scale at the US Nats and flown in Masters or F3A through all the rounds without a structural failure. Take me up on it?

You said,
Really? Then why did the wing on Tony Stillman's Excellence do exactly the same thing? In fact his wing snapped and he lost the whole thing because of it. Last time I checked, who made the Excellence?

My reply,
OK, bring up an isolated incident that occurred 4 years ago. As I have said, there is no epidemic of problems with these kits.

You said,
Then riddle me this batman: Why do the Japanese do so well at the worlds flying wood planes? That's a question I'd love for a euro kit cultist to answer. As for FAI, there's nothing in P-05 that is elemently different, airframe wise, than any other class. Yet.

My reply,
Ever check the price on one of those Japanese marvels? They make $8K look reasonable. And IMO P-05 is much more demanding then 2004 Masters, and even more demanding then 2005 Masters. I think I know because I’ve flown both last year.

You said,
No it'll be a Brio, because.....well we know why don't we? But don't try to say it's because it's not wood. That may have something to do with it, dunno never asked him, but I'm sure the primary factors involved were much more than the material teh airframe was made of.

My reply,
I’ve heard it is because Don thinks it flies better then his Focus/Temptation. I don’t know of any other reason. I’d have to talk to Don to know for sure. Maybe it is because it is a state-of-the-art, large fuselage design that could not be mass-produced at a reasonable price in wood.

Don’t see any reason to lock the thread. Just a sensible discussion, right?

RE: Pl Products
 

I have experiences that match some of the above and knowledge around the Brio/Don that I will share. (No picking - OK?)

The problem with a shell-type plane is not so much how good or bad they are, but how long they will last. My Last PL fuse did not get through a season. The plane was professionally built but soon showed signs of powdering and failures around the corners. The white foam liner did not seem good enough to support the thin skin or handle vibration over a sustained period of time. I gave up on it.

Later fuselages that came my way, like the Temptation, had polyurethane-foam lining and much better glass-work. The Impact and Brio show this type of construction. It handles CA well and makes a nice stiff fuselage. You need less formers etc.

The Focus (I’ve had two - one of each generation and worked on a few more), began a bit heavy. Dave Guerin wings made it competitive for Don in 2003. The Focus-2 was lighter and many made 10 lb versions. A bunch more were below 10-1/2 lb. The Partner flew well against all of the above and I don't know much about how good they were as kits but a lot were built.

Don flew the Brio after the first day of a competition at BARKS NC. He liked it so much that he competed with it the next day. Unfortunately it went in due to radio failure. Don still liked it a bunch and will probably fly one this year - my guess!

Quique was very happy with the new plane and should give us a good BRIO showing this year at the Nat's.

In summary, the construction materials will dictate how long a kit will last. Suppliers are often on the leading or "B"leading edge so stuff does not always work. They have changed a lot in only a few years. Of course balsa/ply/foam still works :-)

I'm off to work on a plane that came from the mold, finished on the outside and empty in the inside....

Regards,

Eric.

RE: Pl Products
 

Mike, I see you've found a new sparring partner ;>

There is at least one option for pilots looking for a composite European-style airplane inside North America (not quite Stateside, I concede, but shipping Canada->USA is modestly priced and fast): NBEngineering.net's Mantis . White fuselage with sheeted wing, stab, and rudder for $700; fully built and painted, ready for radio equipment and engine with mount for $2000.

Adam Glatt
Sponsored NBE pilot

RE: Pl Products
 

I'm always finding new sparring partners Adam :D Err rather, they find me. They all seem to have a few things in common though, oddly enough. But I do digress.....I haven't seen a Mantis close up, but the package and price look a LOT more reasonable to me than $2000....or $8000, which is what began this tangent. To sum up, that's more like it.

Tony, $250? Are you serious? Since the new Fiesta runs about $8000, how bout that? That would make it worth my time. $250 won't even buy the servos. But it has to be a very public bet, and we both need some form of garauntee the other will pay up. That's a lot of work for me, being a new plane off the board. But I have absolutely no doubt I can make a plane that size 9.5 or LESS.

Tony's was only the first one I knew of, and one that people might recognize. I never said it was epidemic, but it happens. For that much money, it shouldn't happen at ALL. Disagree?

As for the japanese planes, the point was the construction methods and it's competetiveness, not the price. Wood is wood, you simply have to pick the pieces carefully and have some skill at assembly. THAT is why there aren't many 2 meter wood kits out there. But back to the issue of quality, which was the whole point, the Japanese planes are wood and competetive, and people rave about thier quality. Disagree?

I fail to see the holes in my arguement, and you are presently failing to point them out clearly. Except for "I'm a 30 year pattern flying FAI type guy and so I know". That's not exactly a point by point example. Perhaps you are overly sensative, I have no idea there. But then maybe I have good points (except for the one on my head). You haven't exactly countered anything I have said with anything of substance. But then we are dealing with impression, worth and quality, none of which can be sharply defined, except in the eye of the beholder. Your eyes see something different than my own.

Err one last thing, but one I'd like clarification on. What exactly...the exact manuever or sequence of manuevers, please...in P-05 is more demanding of the airframe than masters? You would know, so tell me. But be specific...what does a plane in P-05 need to be able to do that one that flies masters cannot? or is it just a presentation thing, and therefore completely subjective?

As far as getting the thread locked, as long as we discuss the topic and not whether I'm being a bad monkey again, it won't be. Stay on topic please.

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

By the way, thanks for the comments Eric, it does shed some light and underscores some things. And I agree.

Also by the way, didn't the wing on QQ's Excellence fail also, about the same time as Tony S's? I seem to recall that, but my memory isn't my strong suit. But there have been more than one, and if it's due to structural failure, then for the price it's not acceptable. If they fixed that, then great. I know the ZNs still have that problem, but only because of personal exposure to ZNs recently. For that kind of money, I'd expect more....you may not.

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

Mike,

I've made my points, I've shown the flaws in your case. You won't accept that, and that's OK. Time for me to move on.
At this point I'm reminded of an old saying, please don't take it too literally.

Never try to teach a pig to dance. You won't like the results, and you'll just aggravate the pig.

Have a great day!

RE: Pl Products
 

I'm still looking for them, but ok, bye [8D]

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

Nice edit, Tony!

But I can't dance. It ain't happenin. Ask the Aruba guys.

-Mike

RE: Pl Products
 

I translated the text in the message and he's finished to the best that I can get out of it. Patrick claims he has been having health problems and that he has a hard time with getting the help needed. I feel the mans pain.
The following is a message from Patrick L owner of PLProd:

First of all PL PROD was not put in bankruptcy but it is of my own
initiative that I filed for bankruptcy, what in France is an act of management and not a personal bankruptcy.

Much among you will understand that it is humanly difficult to
announce this kind of decision by Internet, with knowknowing that moreover it was impossible to to me to do it day
when liquidation was marked with the court since the discontinuance of
business was imminent whereas I hoped to have an agreement of the
judge to be able to finish my deliveries in the course of customers
whose installment had been boxed.

The reasons of my decision are not like it was known as in the forum a
lack of order quite to the contrary. But with my problems of health which last since more than one year, I have no possibility to work like before and I had to engage of the
personnel to face my many orders.

Unfortunately, the same problems which were the cause of the legal rectification in
2000, were again posed; employees not qualified to form, wages and exuberant social contributions compared to provided work, various prud' man for certain employees who believed any knowledge...
and obviously in France the employer is always wrong, all this generates enormous court expenses.

Like he was said by a member of the forum, it is true that a great number of SME or SME are only delocalized
abroad and to be to relieve of the social contributions which are too
much heavy in France.

Moreover why not consider such a solution for the future!!!!!

I knew well that the vultures would be with the mounting and I
announce to crafty one who think, I quote them: "to be made gold testicles" and which in their dream reserve parts, or "foreigners with their full pocket" or those still which think that
the company is not worth anything, and well for some it has a very great value and for all those which
would like to come to make deals, they will may find it beneficial to have very solid finances because
they will have vis-a-vis with them somebody which has them to him and
moreover one hard motivation like a "rock".

Personally my only wish currently is to make return a maximum of money
at the time of the sale so that the syndic can deaden the debts to the
maximum.

As opposed to what Mr. PALERMO announced following his visit in my
residence where is located the company, the buildings are not emptied, all stock and the machines remained in place as at the day of the
pronunciation of liquidation. And will remain it under my personal guard without the syndic did not
consider it useful to put at it sealed or to remove the material. What shows a whole confidence on behalf of the syndic towards me.

I also expected to see some unloading some ones, to see whether there were nothing with grappiller and indeed I saw
some coming some, of which M. PALERMO and his/her son. I quote them bus me I do not hide like them behind pseudo on the
forums to hold to with it of the defamatory and erroneous remarks.

Such as: To say that my wife supposedly said to him that it refused to return
her cheque to him.

In connection with this given cheque on November 6 and to box that on
December 1, I consider that there was not of order since it is the payment of the
installment which confirms the latter. However not being able to be taken into account since the company did
not exist any more at the date of November 25 this one became by this
null and void fact. This cheque will be sent dice tomorrow by the post office in
recommended A.R with a letter which will accompany it I join copy to you.

Frankly, what will I have make of a cheque of 330? with the order of PL
PROD!!!!

I am not a swindler,
I also prevent, all those which are to adapt the photographs of Clara MORGANE on my
site PL PROD without authorization, that these photographs are the property of Patrick LEMONNIER
personally, what did they cost me 8000? for the day of installation with
authorization of exclusive diffusion on stores where they appeared and
on my site. However with all these, I join the article of the penal code to you which relates to them: ATTACK A LIFE PRIVEE BY RECORDING AND DIFFUSION Of the IMAGE Of A
PERSON WITHOUT HER ASSENT ARTICLE 226-1 AND 226-2 OF CODE PENAL. I highly invite them to withdraw these photographs of their site which
I already recorded as proof if I do not have excuses into public on
this forum like that was made to dirty me. If not Clara MORGANE will be made a pleasure of requiring important
damages of them.

Act quickly because I am not patient kind in this field.

In addition my personal businesses look at me and I never neither was
windy myself about it nor hidden and these last do not have absolutely
anything to see with the company PL PROD which never did not produce
or diffused a film in this field.

It is not a "SCOOP" to speak about it!

That each one does its housework in front of its door before being
occupied of that of the neighbor.

PL PROD was always more one passion that a profitability (I am not
enrichiesur the account of the company quite to the contrary, I invested myself as much physically than financially) I think of
having done what is necessary to advance the world of the model
amongst other things reduces the F3A and the F3M including the
electric innovation in F3A.

It should be known that to make model reduced for the high level
competition is a very delicate trade, very difficult and fragile especially if one wants to make "HAUTE
COUTURE".

My great satisfaction currently is of knowing that a great number of
my models are copied throughout the whole World and by many
international companies. Whereas a few years ago I took that for an affront, now I am proud.

With my opinion the progression will be much slower if there are no
more my models to copy.

Will know that Patrick LEMONNIER did not say his last word, that one should not sell the skin of the bear before having it to kill
and I am still quite alive and the head full with ideas for the
future.



I thank the regulator for this forum which knew after a fashion to
make reign the order about the insults towards Clara MORGANE and I
think that that should not have been easy.



I thank, also, those which took my defense on this forum as those which remained
quiet vis-a-vis with these commérages thus showing the contempt that
they bring vis-a-vis to such remarks and I know that you are numerous.



I think of having been honest and courteous and I find damage to be
obliged to justify itself on a forum in this way there and I hope that
in the future those which will have some things to say to me or to
wonder will do it directly on my personal e-mail
[email protected]

I make all reserves on the action pursuant which I will take to
these slanderings.


<End of Translation>
loin de lÃ* !!!

RE: Pl Products
 

Mike,

I am going to sign off this thread also and spare the readership further noise. I don't really have anything else to add or remove. I firmly stand by my message, however I regret using the word roach to describe your planes. I am not saying that I did not mean it. I did and do, but it was insulting, derogatory, and mean spirited to actually reveal that level of detail of how I feel. It was not the gentleman's thing to do. I am sorry for that remark.

I don't think that I am ill-informed; rather I am in sharp disagreement with you on several of your views. I do think that you are filling a sub-market in the niche market of Pattern, and I respect that.

I would like to address all pattern suppliers in the following: I respect and appreciate all pattern suppliers, and I feel that there is much more give than take on your part. Please continue to strive for high quality and better processes, bringing better products to our market as you have over the years. Take what you need in profits to continue to ensure your craft remains viable, and that pattern remains healthy.

Sincerely,

David

RE: Pl Products
 

Been talking to some people and it's happened before and they got through, just wondering why it took nearly a week to get here. I just hope they won't be too long in coming back, I was after a Lazulite.

RE: Pl Products
 

Yes I remember when they were in trouble beofre and they pulled through.

RE: Pl Products
 

I dont know about the horror stories with PL, but we have ordered some 25 kits from ZN over the past few years here in Canada. Basically just group orders for a few guys kind of thing, all direct from France. Not one plane was damaged, all the orders were shipped on time, I think the longest wait was 2-3 months but that was for 11 kits. We have had Synergy's, Evolis, Enigma's all sent over.

I have 1500+ flights on my Enigma that I placed 11th with at this years Nats, she still goes strong and shows no signs of letting go any time soon.

RE: Pl Products
 

Guys,

Here is an e-mail reply that Patrick sent to me today in reply to a question I posed to him about the closing of PL.


Hello Mr Russell Honea

Sadden of this problem yes the company(society) pl prod and close but we are going to honor all the commands(orders) gift(donation) pl prod received a deposit by a buyer(rescuer) and I would be as engineering manager to reassure your customers we are going soon to be able to take your order
Thank you to still take one can of patience sums us in plain reorganization to worry you not we are going soon to be able to answer has your demand you can count on us for 2005 with a great novelty which is going to upset world you can inform about it your forum
Has very soon

Patrick Lemonnier

Russell Honea
www.patternproz.com

RE: Pl Products
 

from the gist of it, it looks as if he is optomistic he will be back!!!