RE: Pattern is dead
 

I agree with pretty much everybody here especially Divesplat, who is a close friend of mine. I have a few things to add that I don't think have been mentioned earlier.

#1 I seriously think that pattern is in a transition of equipment from nitro to electric. If you disagree, just look at the trends annually since the famous "Jason flight" at World's. It stunned the world then and it still is today! Maybe people are holding out to get new equipment until the dust settles.

#2 What I really liked in IMAC was the ooh and aah of the equipment. It seemed everybody came with an even larger plane, Suburban, trailer, tent, etc to each contest. It was like a contest to see who could be "best-ed". Equipment for IMAC can be found in any ARF manufacturer catalog or at your local hobby shop for the lower classes. Pattern planes are kind of difficult to find from the "cottage" industries who produce the kits for us. Also, I REALLY enjoyed the unknowns on Sunday morning. It levelled the playing field and made it very interesting.

#3 I've always compared the differences between pattern and IMAC with a couple of humorous analogies that are not meant to be taken serioulsy --> Pattern is ballet, IMAC is WWE :D and Pattern is Formula One and IMAC is NASCAR. Both very popular, just different.

#4 Lastly, it seems to me that we don't have time for anything in this world anymore. Both of my kids have gone off to college and graduated. Now, it's time for me to concentrate on my job, retirement fund, house, etc. (Things I've neglected for years while paying attention to the kids) I am hopefully going to start flying pattern again with my new Angel's Shadow which has been languishing in my hangar for 8 months!

Keep this discussion going. I find it very interesting.

John S. Johnson
Lubbock, TX

PS The beast in my Avatar takes alot of time and $$ to keep current!

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I have been flying pattern since about 1994 and I do not see patterm coming to a end here in the Southeast. I still go to about the same number of contests and see about the same number of people. I see new faces come and go and I see some faces all the time. I enjoy other parts of our hobby - but pattern is what keeps me in the hobby "Pattern Rules". Blly

RE: Pattern is dead
 

^^ I agree with this guy's point of view, whoever he is.

That wouldn't be a problem if I didn't need someone to come to the field with me DAD. :D

Tommy, the intermediate pattern was getting boring for me because I had flown it so much and the only things I really had left to fix were things that I could work on on more challenging patterns. Like my dad said I don't think it has anything to do with turn around or pre turn around, but rather with the advent of IMAC and split in the competitive community. Some guys want a more relaxed atmosphere where they can BS with their friends and "laugh about zeros".

What it all boils down to is that I prefer pattern, so it doesn't really matter what everyone else is doing. Do what you like doing most.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

It's been said more than once that folks like to go to IMAC meets because of the relaxed atmoshere, BS'sing with friends, and laughing about zeros....

I must be doing something wrong, me and my pattern buddies are pretty relaxed, we sit around and BS, and laugh about zeros (we also laugh at the guys who take this stuff WAY too seriously :D )...That's why I go to contests, I'll never be a consistent winner no matter what class I fly, just can't practice enough, but I'll damn sure keep going to contests as often as possible, I enjoy competing and beign with friends that share a common interest...

Richard

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Richard:

How can you possibly enjoy pattern without practicing 25 hrs a week?:D Then there is me who is so sick I enjoy it without flying at all.

Mike

RE: Pattern is dead
 

my first involvement in pattern was less than freindly. A well known pattern flyer would show up at the field, get out his 2M bird and set up. When he was ready for his practice flight every one would land so he could have the air to himself. He didn't want to be dursturbed before, during or after by some guy asking stupid questions ie questions one asks having never seen a pattern flight. Now the IMAC flyer with his big 35-40% plane looked around for some one to help hold his bird while he fired the engine and did the runup, flew his 10-12 min landed with a grin and would answer any stupid question that he had answered 20 times before from any one that walked up to admire his bird. what was the difference here, to me the pattern flyer was doing serious work trying to be perfect, while the IMAC flyer was having fun throwing the plane around the sky. I know the IMAC flyer has helped may guys set up their 40-60-1/4 scale to 40%er while the pattern flyer still does not want to be disturbed. I know this is not the case of most pattern flyers but if I was treated this way how many others were also in both cases. Just my 2 Pesos

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Lucky chap!
Here it's more like snatch a couple of minutes when 3 helis aren't trying to cut you off at the waist!
But at least it teaches you to judge the flight by looking---there's no way you can hear the engine!
And sorry if it sounds cynical, but most questions seem to be related to "how can I do that?" or "how can I make my plane fly like that?", and attempts at honest answers either sound like insults, or the perceived effort involved is deemed too much or just plain ignored.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Taildrager, it's unfortunate that you had a bad first experience, but I'm sure you know there are jerks in every group. Name any group you've been involved with. Now think... I'm sure there were some people you liked but there's always the jerk (some groups have many).

The reason I'm competitive in pattern is because one of the pattern guys at my local club befriended me when I first joined the club and encouraged me in pattern. My first contest experience was full of guys I didn't know encouraging and helping me in any way they could. I was astounded at the access and kindness of “guys in the know”. Don Ramsey, Chairman of the NSRCA Judging Committee, stood there with just the two of us and gave commentary on a flight. Holy Smoke, what sports can you walk up to the National Judging Chairman as a complete newbie and have a one on one conversation?

If you like pattern fly and encourage the members of your club to give it a whirl. Anyone that does will find exactly what I found at their first contest experience. If you’re not interested find something you love and enjoy life!

Keith B

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I totally concured with what Keith was saying, there are always nice guys, and not so nice guys in every group.

I still remember when I first started flying pattern 10 years ago here in District 7, Derek Koopowitz, Roy Speights, Don Atwood and Herb Kerlun (both past D-7 VP) all went out of their way to coach me and help me setting up my planes. Because of their generosity, friendliness, and enthusiasm, I ended up recruiting a few members from my club to give pattern a try. As a matter of fact, I recently recruited the president of our club - a 50 something retiree to fly pattern.

I do agree we tends to be a bit more serious when it comes time to practice, and I do like to concentrate during my flight time. However, I always try to make myself available in between flights to help other members on settting up planes, tuning engines and answering questions.

Just remember, no matter how good you are, this is only a hobby. Therefore, share it, promote it, and enjoy it.

Adrian

RE: Pattern is dead
 

The reply I got from a long faced fellow competitor, when I tried that one was :"No it's not, it's War"

RE: Pattern is dead
 

one of the problems ( for me antway) is that since no one at our field has the slightest interest in pattern flying, I can only get information by travelling quite a few miles ( km here in Canada) to a field where there may be a pattern type flying. I have to get answers from people I have never met before. When asked what model I fly and I reply an electric what ever, the stock answer is...don't waste your time, it won't work....Or I'm told come to a competition and enter, you'll find out real fast what you need. Just the advice a newbie needs...come alone to a contest where you basically know no one, bring your model ( which by the way won't be adequate) , enter, and we'll try really hard not to laugh at you .
No thanks........

I make my pitiful efforts at doing the " routine" at my home field ( which by the way is my back yard) and am just stubborn enough to get it done hopefully well enough that I am confident enough to attend a " competition" just because .....

I must say though that we had a Pattern primer at my place last month, and the guys who donated their time were very helpful...... and encouraging enough that I will attend the next contest, maybe not to compete, but hopefully I can learn from it. ....and finally I know one or two of the fellows names now, so hopefully I won't be totally on my own.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

That's why we all gether here to share information.

Adrian

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Many good points in this thread. I've been flying pattern since 1972 and have seen the effects of changes in rules (minor) and demographics. It's a shame that many folks are forced from pattern by family and economic issues - when the bottom fell from the Houston economy in the '80's we lost a huge chunk of participation as folks moved to where they could make a living. Many of these folks still flew pattern - but our base was reduced dramatically, hopefully their participation elsewhere improved pattern there. The "hot bed" of pattern has always moved around the country as a result of these type issues. But it does just take a spark in any area to rekindle the flame. If you're the only one with pattern interest in an area - demonstrate our game to others, some will come on board and the flame will spread.

The main thing to recognize is that pattern is not a "life or death" activity - it's much, much more important than that!

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Considering the rich history of pattern flying and the fantastic designs that came out of the 60s, 70s and 80s, it is very disappointing when the leaders think they have a great idea, take the lead and few follow. One could get the impression that pattern aircraft are morphing into oblivion.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

The goal of any organization has to be spelled out in plain words then the organization has to decide what path to achieve that goal. I just visited the NSRCA site and read the bylaws.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The goals of the NSRCA should, in my opinion, be the goal of all pattern fliers in the USA. The goal seems to be lacking in vision and scope. As a SIG the NSRCA should lead the way and does a fairly good job of it. If we want to "Grow Pattern" in the USA we need to decide on a better goal and then set out a plan to achieve this goal, once we all get to rowing the boat towards the single goal it can happen. Problem as I see it is we're not "rowing" in the same direction with no clear cut goal in mind. Some think the AMA pattern is a building block so the USA can field a team for the worlds, ok I can buy that, but I think we need to pay more attention to the grass roots level of possible pattern flier and the guys that have no desire to ever try out for "The Team". It will take time and hard work on the part of the NSRCA officers as well as the typical pattern flier. Will it happen over night? certianly not but it can be done. Are we up to the challenge? I hope and believe so.


PS Join the NSRCA, it's supposed to be our collective voice. Come to think of it I've not seen a new K factor in a few months hmmmmm.............. my membership might have run out and I missed it, now where's my check book??????? Ok I found mine have you found your's yet?

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I'm with Earl.:D

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Pattern in my neck of the woods has grown since I started. This will be my fourth year flying the AMA sequences. I toyed with the idea of flying pattern for a couple of years, but it took another club member to literally threaten me (in a good way) before I entered a contest. The rest is history. Point being, I believe it takes a one-on-one grass roots movement at the local level to build interest. All of us who fly pattern are ambassadors to the sport. How we behave and interact with other pilots at the field reflects on the sport and our ability to recruit new pilots.

I know a lot of us pattern folk, probably myself included, are a slightly odd group. As we all know, a $3K plane and $2K radio is nice, but not required to be competitive. When pumping up other pilots to try pattern, I feel it is important to explain that they can enjoy, participate and even be competitive in the lower classes with their existing gear (generally.) Locally, we use a SPA contest to give new pilots a taste of pattern. It's not an official SPA contest; we just use their sequences. Very laid back, any plane welcome in any class, be it a trainer, giant scale, or 2M ship. We work hard to be sure the new pilots have good callers, are relaxed, and have fun.

What I enjoy most about pattern is it gives my flying a purpose and it improves my overall skills. Not that I exactly need a reason to fly, but having a reason pushes me to try to better myself, which ultimately feels good when you finally nail something. I strongly believe that just practicing sequences has greatly improved my flying. Even my goof off flights are more fun because they are more precise and controlled.

I do wish the patterns were a bit more exciting, such as the IMAC sequences. But the difficulty is there in the AMA sequences. Not so much any one component, but the sequence as a whole. As for the SPA patterns… I hate them in general. That Figure "M" thing can bite me and what's up with three outside loops? But I still enjoy a good SPA contest. The competition, lunch, meeting friends from other fields, maybe lunch again. :)

Pattern is Dead? Not to me. I know it isn't as popular as the glory days, but that was well before my time (I'm 39, started flying in '98.)

I considered IMAC, and had a 35% Carden. But the contests are far away for me last time I looked into it. One in Kansas City (4 hours away), the next closest in Aurora, Colorado (8 hours away.) I gave up on IMAC due to no local interest and far away contests. Sold both my 35% ships.

With pattern, until this year, there were two AMA contests within 45 minutes of my house (Omaha contest was canceled this year, but not due to lack of interest.) For SPA, there are another 4 contests all within 90 minutes of my house. This is six pattern contests all within 90 minutes of my house… and this is BFE Nebraska! Not picking on Denver as I love the city and my mother lived in the area for years; but the Denver metro area has MORE population than my entire state. Where are your pattern pilots? They have to be there somewhere… maybe they just don't know yet that they are a pattern pilot so someone needs to enlighten them. :)

RE: Pattern is dead
 

There are a lot of reasons why pattern flying is declining, take our club for an example. We have about 100 members, out of which I would say only 35 to 40 of them actual flies if that many. And out of that number, only 20 to 25 of them flies on a regular basis, and most of them are between the ages of 45 to 55. Their main goal is to go out to the field on the weekends to socialize with fellow members, put in a few flights in between and will be more than happy to take their planes home in one piece. As far as competition goes, not their cup of tea. Also, to most of them, these are their prime years in money making so they can ensure a comfortable living for their family in the future, going to contest on the weekends does not appeal to them.

As much as cost is an issue, I don't think its the main deterrent. There were a few at our club who expressed slight interest, and some of them used to race full size sail boats, or have participated in other competitive sports in their younger age. We constantly remind them that they can use their current airplane to participate at the Sportsman level, they all came back with the same answer - been there, done that.

Another issue is, although we have new members every year, but none of them are in their 20s. Kids nowadays have way too many avenue for channelling their interest, and most of them wants instant gratification. Unfortunately, spending time practicing to better their flying skill is not one of them. Once in great while, you'll see a father and son joining the club. But, as soon as the father lost interest, the son disappears as well.

However, eventhough we are battling an uphill battle, don't despair. Keep making yourself availabe to your local club member, even if you can just recruit one new pattern pilot a year, you have accomplish a lot.

Adrian

RE: Pattern is dead
 

It seems everytime this discussion comes up everybody jumps in, some get real defensive, some
don't, about why we think pattern is great or not so great. Obviously the ones who fly pattern , me
included, think it's great or we wouldn't be doing it. I like it fine I just think the maneuvers could be
made more interesting for outside onlookers. When a lot of people watch us practicing they don't have
a clue what we're trying to accomplish. Straight lines and equal radius turns mean nothing to the casual
observer but when they watch a 3-D airplane or big 30% Edge flopping all over the sky , they get the
WOW effect. We probably should be trying to make pattern flying something the newcomer "wants"
to do.
Some people like to compare pattern to figure skating, maybe we should do what figure skating did to
attract more people. Mandatory school figures at one time accounted for half the score in skating but
no one wanted to watch them because they were so boring. The skaters and coaches said they were the
hardest part of the competition but all any one wanted to see were the triple loops etc. What did skating do ?
They got rid of the school figures and concentrated on what everyone wanted to see, the exciting stuff.
Seems to have worked for them, maybe we should try it.

I don't think pattern needs any drastic changes, maybe just something to spark a little interest to someone
sitting on the fence, we just need to push them the right way !!!

tommy s

PS: JohnW

I always liked that figure M !!

RE: Pattern is dead
 

.
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Make all of the pilots wear short skirts and twirl around alot??
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RE: Pattern is dead
 

Keith !!!

We want to attract new pilots-----not scare them off !!! :D


tommy s

RE: Pattern is dead
 

if it will score more points I will do it

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Im a new guy to pattern, just getting started.

You have to understand my background, pop was a pattern flyer WAY back.... like 1964 back. Im surrounded by pilots with some sort of pattern background at one time or another.. Tony Stillman, Steve Rojecki, etc.

The only reason I'm getting into pattern is because I want the competition, and there are very limited choices for what I really like to do which is indoor freestyle....so I figured Id learn pattern. Besides, the precision skills Ill learn in pattern will help me in the other events.

But I have to agree with the early posters.....BORING sportsman sequences. Even though they are boring, they are designed to teach you how to fly with precision. Its the kinda old adage..."whats good for you doesnt always taste good". Sportsman sequence tastes like ****, but learning it correctly is good for you.

Let me give you an example. Most pilots can fly a loop. Its easy, just increase power, and pull back on the stick, Right...well that maybe ok for some folks, but thats not a "real" loop. A "real" loop is one that is perfectly round, and smooth. Ask a sport pilot to make two consecutive loops one right after the other, and to make both of them the same. 90% of the time they cant pull it off. Enter the sportsman sequence. A pattern sequence designed to take the beginning pilot, and teach him how to fly correctly. Sure its boring as hell, but its there to teach you not make you drool with excitement.
We all want to go throw down with a sweet F3A flight, but it just isnt going to happen your first time.

Problem # 1 -
The younger guys pick up a foamy, within a few months, they've got it hovering, and it looks so much more impressive than a big ol loop, that they dont show any interest in pattern. Its only the guys that actually take the time to try precision flight that actually realize its benefits. I quickly realized after my first freestyle competition that if I wanted any hope of ever gaining a top 10 finish, I had to learn precision. Just flying wild wing-snapping maneuvers is never going to get you a top place finish.

Problem #2 - Spectator involvement - have you ever gone to a pattern contest sat behind the fence just to watch. Its like watching grass grow. Hit the snooze button and wake me when its over. New guys watch from the sidelines, after watching about 7 flights, they either pack up and leave, fall asleep, or start wondering around looking for something to do.

Problem #3 - Cost. HOLY WRIGHT FLYER this is expensive. Get ready to empty the bank acct. Just the motor alone will set you back a good weeks paycheck. You'll need your tax return for the plane to put it in. Entry level sportsman class is capable of being flown by just about any plane, but if you want to be competitive, your still gonna need a fairly decent plane. Then you are going to go through gallons and gallons of fuel in practice sessions.

Problem #4 - Time - I once had a pattern pilot tell me if you want to win you have to fly EVERYDAY. You have to be completely devoted 100%, and fly all the time to stay competitive. Its hard enough to get people to come to the field once a month to fly, much less everyday. You've got to really be hooked on this hobby to put that much effort into it. So the beginner practices a few times, and goes to compete in a competition. He gets his butt handed to him because the guy next to him has burned enough nitro to burn a hole in the ozone layer, and he loses interest.

So how do we solve this problem. Hmmm

Start adding more visually appealing maneuvers to the existing patterns? F3Ai/F3P is already incorporating some of these maneuvers. The last maneuver in the F3Ai sequence is a single torque roll. Perhaps add different attitude flight maneuvers. At current the more difficult patterns...most of it is just changed from up right maneuvers to inverted maneuvers, and adding points into the rolls. What about KE. A simple KE pass in the sportsman class would improve the WOW factor, and dont kid yourself. Most of the sportsman class flyers could pull it off. At current, we dont see KE flight till the Masters class. WHY? There's lots of WOW in KE flight. Im sorry, but by the time you get to masters, you should be able to do a KE pass, with a negative snap in the middle back to KE. Do this at your field, and watch jaws drop. What happened to rolling circles? Ive seen kids with foamies doing rolling circles in the backyard, yet we dont see this maneuver in any of the AMA classes. Of course you still have to fly these with precision, but I think adding maneuvers that push the skills, will just end up making is better pilots in the long run.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Here's what Loudenslager had to say about the loop.
http://www.airventuremuseum.org/virt...vations/shark/
Click on the link below his picture.
JLK

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Part of the problem is you guys are all on the inside wondering
why no one wants to come in. Let me give you a bit of perspective
from the outside as a non pattern flyer.

My flight instructor was a pattern guy (who flies nothing but helis now)
that instilled an interest in pattern in me as I learned to fly.
Once I became proficient at general sport flying I wanted
to try pattern. So I built a Bridi Super Kaos.

I know its an old outdated design but it was a pattern plane
that I could afford and I had no delusions of actually winning anything.
I just wanted to give it a try and I figured there would be a lot
of similar planes in the novice/sportsman class.

So I practiced a lot with my Kaos and while I was doing pretty
good there was a lot of room for improvement. Going to an
actual contest and talking to and seeing otherr flyers should help
move me along.

So I went to a semi local contest here in Illinois.
To my dismay I discovered that everyone there
had mega$ 2M fiberglass ships even in the novice
class. So it would be me and my 40 size Kaos against
mega$ 2m ships. I never got my plane out of the car.
I stayed around for a while and watched a few others
fly. I finally got bored and went home. End of my pattern
career.

The initial start up cost is a big factor. Just too costly
for the average person. I understand the need and desire
for the best of the best for the top classes but isnt that
a bit much for the novice/sportsman class? Isnt the novice
class supposed to be entry level and flown with simple
inexpensive planes? That was my understanding but
the reality was much different.

Mike Hammer