Pattern is dead
 

Hi. I'm an old pattern flyer from the 70's 80's and 90's . I have 2 kids I've just about got thru college and was thinking about getting back to pattern again. But why? I'm in the Denver area and their lucky to get 6 guys at at contest. I remember when we used to get 40 plus at every contest around here. We just have to much to choose from in our hobby anymore.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Contact the guys at the Senior Patter Association. They will have some ideas about how to get pattern going again. They (SPA) have a mailing list you can join. You can ask the questions there and will get a lot of helpful replies. Maybe even find out there are more pattern fliers in CO than you think. Visit the Classic Pattern forum which is a subcategory of the pattern forum.

John VB

RE: Pattern is dead
 

We all face declining numbers at contests. OK, someone will write how their area is booming.. but let's be honest, it's declining - and has been for years. For the most part, we have the same faces and the same winners at every contest. Planes continue to get more expensive - if you want to pay for them. Electric is expensive to enter. Suggested solutions seem to range from flying less expensive equipment to free entrance fees to Sportsman flyers. This is not the main problem, it's the interest in pattern that is declining. It's been suggested many times that perhaps it's the competition that people are worried about but IMAC seems to be growing. Why? More fun? Their planes are expensive.. their radio's are the same as ours. One thing for sure, we don't know what to do, and you are correct, it is going away. Is the handwriting on the wall?

sc

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I've flown pattern for years and will continue to do so but to be honest the pattern sequences
suck. We wanted to be just like the rest of the world so we would have a chance at the world
championships but the sequences are not very interesting. The reason IMAC is growing is the
airplanes and the maneuvers are more FUN !!!
I think anyone who flew the old AMA pattern and who would give you an honest opinion would
tell you it was a lot more fun back then, but it's not going to change back so why fight it, it's all
about money now, the manufacturers are surely not going to quit building all this stuff we need
now to be competitive and go back in time, so who knows what the answer is ?

tommy s

RE: Pattern is dead
 

The numbers are low here too.
But IMAC is not overburdened with numbers here either. I think that may be because of noise and space limitations here though.
But the young up-and-comers here, and there are some very talented ones, all fly more or less ARF 3D stuff.
Why? IMO because it's more immediately accessible in airframes requiring less knowledge/skill in assembly, the manouevres are more "flash", and although they require a great deal of finger skill to do well, there's very little discipline involved.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

unfortunately many people today have no idea how much better a lightly loaded pattern airplane flies than ANY scale aerobatics imac airplane. (by the way I've flown them all including the various sizes of comp arf airplanes and the 35% and 40% cardens) So they build a 35% imac airplane for the same money that it takes to build a modern pattern airplane and they end up with alot larger airplane. pattern flyings' death occured when they got rid of the displacement rule. The cost of the 1.4-1.7 engines and exhaust systems is insane. I have a basement full of .60 size airplanes airplanes and engines that I used to win alot of contests with, now it's all worthless junk. I'm sure jeide has a large inventory of the same stuff. (jeide won the 1987 nats in masters) I haven't seen him fly in a while but while we were both going to the contests in and around Denver he was unbeatable and and spectacular to watch. I wonder if the guys we used to fly with would go for a contest using the old ama masters rules, .60 2 stroke or 1.2 four stroke engine. Any interest?

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Hey Jim.

Just got back from the Albuquerque contest. Had tons of fun.

In Colorado contact either Jeff Carrish or Larry Falsetto. The Crosswinds contest is 4 weeks away, I think.

What happened in Co is a series of bad luck catastrophes. My first contest in Alb had 36 or so pilots. I was wickedly impressed with 12 Masters pilots. This was 10 years ago. The next year, a significant drop in upper classes began. Sean McMurtry moved from OKC so within several years the OKC contingent dropped to 2-3 guys when it had been 8-10. In Co, one club lost its field, another had to do something to the field to make it flyable, and very quickly, the guys that had competed for years went away. Then Troy Newman moved away. He had been a catalyst to keep pilots flying pattern. On and On. Alb contest has really really suffered. Some of the pilots have tried IMAC. Some liked it some didn't.

I disagree the sequences are as responsible as some suggest (sorry Tommy) The reason I say this is when Pattern was booming 10 years ago in your area, the Sportsman sequence (now named Intermediate) had 4 breaks in the sequence, had 3 loops (which everyone hates) had 3 rolls continously, had a double stall turn (everyone hated that one also) Advanced wasn't very exciting either and Novice (now Sportsman) most people laughed at, being too easy they said. however, this series of sequences BUILT SKILLS, and I will say the skills have served me well. I have seen a number of both IMAC and Pattern guys who move up to soon and simply don't have the learned skills. I started flying in the early 90's but find the current sequences fun, and looking at next years, are much better than the old sequences. On the flip side Snaps are present in the lowest IMAC class with Spins in the Sportsman class. IMAC changes the sequences every year, and Pattern had a snaffu with only changing the Masters sequence(which may affect my opinion) I think they should have changed all classes but that is another story.

$$ is a huge factor. In the early 90's, a kit was $400 and all up finished cost of a plane was probably $1500. We didn't use $100 servos, the engines were cheaper and could be used in anything you wanted (YS DZ is almost pattern specific) I agree with that point.

In the 70-80's, there were very few options for the competitive spirit so just the sheer increase in opportunities, Heli, Jets, IMAC, 3D and freestyle, now small indoor electrics are partially responsible.

From a societal viewpoint, it is extremely clear to me, people from Jr High, to High School to young adulthood don't want to practice hardly anymore. If it doesn't come naturally, most won't take the time to work on it. This automatically rules out Pattern. Have seen this numerous times where a talented pilot will try a manuever 3 times and if he can't get it right, he gets mad and starts doing something else. I have seen this happen in competitive Racketball, pre-teen baseball, swimming, and the list goes on and on. Computers, couch potatoes, competitive events w/o a score or the notion that everyone are winners and shame on the person who states the truth. This point goes on and on also. Ever wonder why "going postal" happens, or massive school shootings occur. If we can't be the winner we don't want to play, or we want to blame someone else, or I'll get my revenge. Letting 2 boys with boxing gloves go into a room and one walk out is not a bad thing IMO (and I was always the little guy.)

Pattern is not dead, although it is absent in Co. If there was a catalyst to draw new pilots to try Pattern, that could change. I have tried very hard to recruit pilots, within my abilities, with very very little success. There are a ton of misperceptions, that simply don't seem to go away. So, I continue to practice and go to the contests I can, and have fun.

Truth be told 30 pilots is about the most you can get to fly in a 6 round contest now a days. More than that and the contest only runs 5 rounds or you're so dog tired after being in the sun for 14 hrs you don't care. 20-25 is IMO the best size for Pattern at this point.

The last issue is club participation. Many CD's have very little club support, so the contests have to run almost by themselves. there can be a number of reasons for this. Other contests have lots of club support and what a blessing when it occurs. Lots of opinions on all this.

These are just my opinions. I can try to get you Jeff or Larry's phone #'s if interested. PM or E-mail me.

My big thing is HAVE FUN, in what ever RC fun that is.

Ed

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Not to be a smartass Jim, but a great way to start boosting numbers would be for you to start flying it again. We have seen a great increase here in D2, however I would get in touch with Rusty Dose, I think his e-mail is [email protected]. He is the new treasurer and he's very energetic and has a fire within him to get membership numbers back up. I would talk to him and bounce ideas off of his head, as well as listen to what he has to say. Other than that, just get out there and try and promote it. There are several new guys that are flying out here that also fly giant scale and they have absolutely fallen in love with pattern. So it's not impossible to convert GS guys, or even to get them to consider it, you just have to do it. I really do hope that you can start attracting people back into this great sport. It sure is a lot more fun to actually have people to fly against that are serious; believe it or not it is a great way to make friends. Take care.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Ryan, I live in NW Greensboro. I'm getting back into r/c after having been away for some years. Is there much pattern activity in the Triad? I'm really interested in it, but I'm relatively new to the area and not sure where to look. I stopped by the meet at WSRC this past Saturday and watched for awhile. Any info would be great.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

What's wrong with just wanting to fly a modern pattern ship and not competing ? Through careful shopping and building on your own , it doesn't have to be financially prohibitive. It's plenty satisfying to me to practice a sequence and try to improve upon it , even if the results achieved aren't at a winning level. Competition , trophies , recognition , and weekends away from home no longer interest or suit some of us. Please don't take this as a knock against active competitors . To each , his own , but I hope that pattern grows and thrives because, as we all know , the ships are still the best ride out there.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I'm the same way right now. I enjoy flying the maneuvers and building pattern planes. I have been to 2 SPA contests to watch and it is exciting. I'm mostly not sure I would enjoy hitting the road most weekends to compete right now. We have 2 former Nats winners at our club, and their influence is good on all of us. Maybe I'll actually enter a competition one day.....

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I'm currently building an older pattern plane for my own enjoyment as it's probably too fast for the style of competition flying done today. I'm building it mainly because I think it's a beautiful design and it's so much fun building:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4017336/tm.htm

I've thought about taking critical measurements off of something new like a Venus II and using very simple construction methods (ala Kaos) drawing up a plane that would be quick, easy and cheap to build but still retain a lot of the contemporary flying qualities. The cowl would be the only time-intensive area, although Tower sells the fg Venus II cowl for $24, and the canopy for $9.50.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

HI Guys,

Excellent thoughts posted. This year I've been flying IMAC and pattern in south FLorida - which is to say that due to the schedules and some family stuff, have attended 4 IMAC contests and only 1 Pattern. Regarding participation in Pattern, I don't know what the real answer is going to be in terms of regrowing out numbers. We usually discuss things in terms of, "how do we these guys to come over to us." An interesting thing is slowing brewing here though: Another friend and I who have largely flown pattern, are now flying IMAC. While I'm enjoying getting to know the guys thoroughly, a few of them have expressed interest in flying pattern and practicing with us! In my opinion what may be happening is that while we (pattern types) typically need to learn the snapping maneuver - all the other fundamental stuff is in place. When we practice with the pure IMAC flyer, we are coaching on overall presentation as well as individual maneuvers, as well as WIND-CORRECTION. After a while, some of the strict IMAC guys are saying things like, "hey, lets practice together some more." "Lets take advantage of these pattern guys while their at the field." "Hey, whats a pattern contest like, I'm thinking of going to one." Or, "hey, whats a pattern contest like - I want to get my son involved in pattern to help his IMAC flying."

In the end, there may be just as many IMAC types that want to fly pattern once you expose them to it - even if it means flying scale aerobatics. If you love to fly model aerobatics, break down and go to the nearest events (IMAC or Pattern). These days, there are some VERY good 35% planes on the market which are a tad more expensive to get going than a pattern plane. As you learn to fly the IMAC sequences, I believe you will appreciate the plane for the sequences it was meant to fly, and re-appreciate your pattern plane its associated sequences. Both are a lot of fun! Once you see your aerobatic skill improving as you learn, it starts to matter less and less whether you are flying an IMAC or Pattern plane - the challenge is still there and that is what us pattern types love - right (besides endless discussion on round loops :)

Jim W.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I recently looked through a 20 plus year old model airplane mag, and was surprized to find most of this hobby is less expensive today that it was in the 80's, even from the 80's perspective. I think it is interresting that this hobby, for the most part is more affordable than then.(The exception would be the big gasser stuff and turbines.) The problem is the lack of patience and willingness by us gen x'ers and younger to do the work that it takes to put on a great contest and bring in spectators and participants.

The question is, "How can we gen x'ers put a fire under ourselves, take pride in our hobby, our clubs, our locations, and bring these things back strong? Jointly with club participation, we may find that, just because we may not be able to participate in the flying, we may enjoy ourselves just as much doing the "work."

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Hi. I thought this topic would get some blood pumping. One problem in Denver is that we are 500 miles from anywhere. It's hard for people to come here and for the locals to travel. I agree pattern planes are the best flying aircraft in this hobby. With all we have to chose from now in this hobby I don't think pattern will ever see the glory days it enjoyed in the past. Jim

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Sorry Tommy, but I don't agree at all.

For me, flying pattern is significantly more fun than flying IMAC. Pattern is more disciplined and demanding of the pilot IMO. I flew at my first IMAC contest this past weekend and although I thought the IMAC schedules looked like a whole lot more fun I found myself rather displeased with the level of competition. Pattern required you to hold a line, fly in a box, center your maneuvers, match radiuses, etc. These are ALL things that IMAC does not require a majority of the time and it just made it seem too much like I was going up to fly on a Sunday afternoon. IMAC was too centered around whether you hit your point on a snap/roll or not. Pattern requires more control over the airplane and a better understanding of the geometry of a maneuver. Fly unlimited then go fly F3A. For me, F3A presents a much bigger challenge and therefore is more fun. Other people's definition of fun may be different, but I just love to challenge myself to be the best that I can.

I won't lie though, the freestyle was pretty darn fun. Something different that kept me interested.

And remember, this is a 16 year old kid your talking to, not a 60 year old senior. Not all kids like to flop the sticks and fly 3D all the time.

Brett

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I never said it wasn't fun Brett, if it wasn't fun I wouldn't do it, but it's quite a bit
different now days and the decline seemed to start when turnaround came into being.
I know there are lots of different opinions about this, I'm just giving mine, and I don't
expect it to or want it to change back the way it was. I'm sure everyone who flew pattern
back in the "old" days will remember how large a turn out we would have at all the contests.
I remember one year with Max at the Southwest Championships in Dallas there were so
many contestants we flew four flight lines at once just so we could finish on time. During the
spring and summer months there seemed to be a contest somewhere in Texas every weekend
and sometimes would get TV and newspaper coverage. When the Fort Worth Thunderbirds
hosted a contest there were contestants from all over the country. You can't blame people who
flew back then for comparing it to the way it is now. There is no single reason for the decline ,
it's just everything, life in general, it's just the way it is.
I'm not one who wants to go back to the old 60 size rocket pattern ships, the new designs do fly
better, I would just like to see a little more imagination in the pattern sequences, might just make
it a little more interesting for the spectators. If I remember right you stated in this forum when you
were flying intermediate you were looking forward to moving to advanced because intermediate
was "so boring" !! If it's boring to us imagine what it's like to the spectator.

tommy s

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Hi guys , this is a great thread . Its a topis of discussion we have in Australia for
quite some time now and while i cannot offer an answear I can tell you of what
I went through .

The man who taught me to fly was an ex pattern guy from back in the late 70s
to early 80s . So as being given lessons I was guided towards pattern manovers
and that style of flying . After two solid years of pattern and a couple of promotions
I was at that point of needing a new top level 2 x2 , it was then I paused to consider
the future and also the past .

My first consideration was why did I start Pattern . That was easy , to learn how to fly.
The second question was am I having fun or is this just competition . Having come
from semi pro sport for 10 years the answear was clear , its just another comp .
I never did another pattern comp again , the fun was gone .

Yes I did move over to IMAC and yes I am having alot of fun . I do enjoy trying to
fly my plane as well as I can but I think its the relaxad aproach of IMAC events
I like the most . I still like to fly the 2 x 2 and I marvel just how easy the plane is
to do an IMAC pattern with but the tought of going back to a pattern comp does
not get me fired up at all .

I think pattern is not dead I just think it needs to have a long hard look at it self .


Suart D

RE: Pattern is dead
 

It's not dead - it's resting

-Sorry couldn't resist adding a little Monty Python

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Ilikebipes: I'm not sure what magazines you were looking at when you say the hobby is more affordable now than it was 20 years ago, 1986 futaba 8 channel pcm $500.00, 2006 futaba 9zap
$900.00 without any servos, 1986 y.s. .60 $148.16, 2006 y.s. 1.6 dz $680.00, 1986 j.r. 4031 servo $60.00, 2006 j.r. 8611 $100.00. Just a few examples, not including exhaust systems, airplane kits or anything else required. As I stated earlier, I believe the day that the rules changed and essentially every pattern airplane / engine in the country became obsolete, was the day pattern started to die. I'd be flying pattern today if I thought my Jekyll with a hanno special (which won 14 or 15 contests between 1991 and 1993) would be competitive.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

What did you earn in 1986 and what do you earn in 2006? As a percent of disposable income it's much cheaper for me today than then. Just wish I had the drive now as I did then. I probably had the first jekell with a 4 stroke in the country and it flew turn around just fine albiet fast compaired to today's ships. I built the jekell with the YS1.20 when they first came out and everyone was changing to long strokes still.

RE: Pattern is dead
 

It may not be resting......... in some areas, it may be teetering on the edge of "coma"........and be in a persistent vegatative state....Maybe like some of us old pre-turnaround farts.........

RE: Pattern is dead
 

Well, if you figure on an average inflation rate of 4%, then those 1986 prices are now 219% higher, so the Futaba radio is now $1095, etc. The engines have certainly gotten more expensive, but you can also buy an OS 1.60 for less than half the YS DZ and still get a very competitive aircraft. Everything else is cheaper in today's dollars than in 1986.

I suppose I might as well throw my $0.02 in, too. I am a non-competitive flyer who happens to love pattern planes and flying with more precision and effort at improvement than the duffer Sunday flier. I can't imagine ever competing due to other time constraints. I don't think that cost has much to do with the lack of participation. At many fields there are often large scale aerobatics planes flown that cost just as much or more than a top level 2M pattern plane and no one seems to complain about those prices. The perception has always been that pattern is expensive (and it is), it was so in the late 80's when I took up R/C and is still so today. I think the biggest reason for lack of participation has already been mentioned - the time investment required. It takes a lot of time flying and practicing the same maneuver over and over to get it really good. And that is pretty dull. And then there is the time involved in competing, with travel, weekends away, etc. Then look at IMAC and 3D/freestyle/artistic aerobatics. There is less discipline involved (I'm not slagging IMAC, it is hard to compete there as well) and everything is slipperier, looser and generally more entertaining and better entertainment for the time invested. I think society is generally busier than it was 20 years ago and people have to be more efficient and careful with their spare time. Which counts heavily against pattern.

Also, if you go out to your local field with a 2M pattern ship a few people will wonder over to take a look and then wander off, probably commenting on how expensive that gee-whiz pattern plane is. Now show up with a 40% Yak or Extra and see how many people come over for a look and talk. And when the subject of cost comes up, everyone is in awe of the mighty beast and doesn't walk away thinking "what a waste of money". This all makes IMAC and giant scale very attractive and pattern less so. And of course, it has been mentioned that there are now options that simply didn't exist 20 years ago, with helis, electrics, etc. splintering the groups up more.

I am not sure there is a solution to increasing the numbers, because anything that lowers the time investment also affects the competition level and effort required that make pattern what it is.


Mark

RE: Pattern is dead
 

I don't believe it is a matter of turn around or pre turn around. What has happened in the same time frame is the advent of IMAC, essentially splitting the competitive community in two. When a flyer gets to the point they want to compete he has a choice in precision aerobatics.

He can take the same plane he flys at the club fly-in, local big-bird, or a friend's club and with some setup and trimming can fly an IMAC schedule that doesn't require a specific purpose plane to be competitive.

His practice routine consists of rolls and snaps, rolling turns, etc, much more fun than trying to draw a square or a six-sided loop on center. When he goes to a contest, it is a much lighter atmosphere, with people joking about zero's on a maneuver, flying their planes after the last round and staying past dark just to talk with everybody. If he performs a well-executed spin, but is off center, he is rewarded with a good score, not hammered because he missed center.

I also found it interesting that the age group at the last IMAC contest was generally 20-40, the demographic that pattern seems to be missing, and, at least in theory, the age group with the most demands on their time.

Pattern is demanding in terms of practice time and specific purpose planes. It appeals to a small group of perfectionists. I wouldn't forecast any growth in pattern and perhaps pattern should be reserved for those who strive to be the best and have the time and resolve to pursue it.

P.S. Brett if your reading this, you need to be out practicing the six sided loop.:D

RE: Pattern is dead
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: mwick

I don't believe it is a matter of turn around or pre turn around. What has happened in the same time frame is the advent of IMAC, essentially splitting the competitive community in two. When a flyer gets to the point they want to compete he has a choice in precision aerobatics.
...........................................

I do believe the downward spiral of pattern started with turn around. We used to get 50+ fliers at our TWO contests here and when turn around started with "Expert TA" and "FAI" those classes were very small with a lot of contests only myself and Darrell Kampschror flying the Expert TA class. When we went to all turn around we could hardly get 25 fliers making running a contest, at best ,a break even deal for the club. There wasn't a gradual drop off ion fliers it was immediate. I also believe that IMAC splintered the group even farther as I still see some guys I flew pattern with for years have migrated to it. I see their names in the contest results. I think some guys droped pattern simply because they were not competitive and always placed towards the bottom of the pile. Pattern does demand a fair amount of time for practice and at least one flying buddy to help you pratice. For some, like myself, life got in the way with a family and a business to run. I now find myself with the money to do it in grand style now but lack the time required to "Fly with the big dogs". Do I still have the skills I once had? I hope so. But the thumbs are rusty and the drive to win "Iron" isn't there as it once was but I still enjoy flying these planes and the guys that fly them. I'll be around at a few contests this fall and expect to be full tilt boogy next year. In the early 90's we could go to 10-15 contests a year within 150 miles now that same 10 contests would take us all over the southeast. Still I'd rather fly with 20 guys that are really dedicated to the sport than 50 that are not.