Pattern practice help
 

I am practicing pattern flying. I am working on just the basic turnaround maneuvers, with concentration on coming out of the maneuver with wings level, at the right altitude and right throttle setting. My problem is with crosswind correction. It is obvious what to do during the straight and level flight portion (obvious, but not easy), but it is not clear to me how to correct for crosswind during the turnaround maneuver itself ( half loops). How do you make this correction during these half loop turnarounds? Are you using just rudder throughout the maneuver, during just part of the maneuver, or are you also throwing in some roll correction? Any help would be appreciated.

Pattern practice help
 

Look for Wayne Apostolico (sp) book cross wind flying. Lots of good info.

Pattern practice help
 

I am starting to notice that pattern flyers (at least those on RCU) like to talk about airplanes a lot but apparently don't like to talk about flying. We might as well rename this forum "pattern airplanes". Look through all of the threads and you will see what I mean. I know how to build or buy airplanes, I want to learn how to fly pattern! With that having been said, does anyone out there know how to correct for crosswind? Maybe starting a new forum called "How to fly pattern" would help. Seriously, I would like a little assistance from all of the "experts" out there. No one at my field flies anything precision, they are just all over the sky.

Pattern practice help
 

Richard,

What your asking is a question that has so many answers. So many different answers at that. If you will ask a specific question as to how to do a certain maneuver, someone like TroyN,
JAS, TonyF, DougC,other top pilots will surely help.

As far as crosswind correction, Rudder is always the key. You maintain heading in a crosswind by applying rudder throughout the schedule. Always being aware of the heading you established in your entry to the box, and maintaining it at all times. The hard part to explain is the steps to do this in. You use rudder alot, but you use it so that your plane seemingly is always flying straight and level. I call it sneaking the rudder in. I'm not good at sneaking mine in, but thats what you are looking for. Your example would be a good one or a 1/2 Cuban eight. Practicing in a crosswind, enter the 1/2 Cuban and use rudder across the back side to maintain your heading, coming out of it at the same entry height and on the same path(heading) you entered it. No closer to you, no further away.Making the plane looks as if it is not even flying in a crosswind.


See, I have totally made a mess out of trying to explain this, but I did give it a try.

Pattern practice help
 

GW did a hard job above.
Anthony's suggestion of the Crosswind flying book (I believe Don's hobby has them, but I never had a chance to buy one).

I am only in the Intermediate level and am definitely not an expert at all. I saw your posting right after it was posted, but wasn't brave enough to reply.

Also, it is beginning of contest season. The response time may get a little longer also. If I can, I would go out to fly rather than staying up all night looking at this computer screen for more than 8 hours a day!!

I also post reply to what I think I know. Otherwise, I mostly read.

Anyway.
here is what I try, but have not always been successful because of less time to practice and different conditions. My local flying field has cross wind almost every evening.

Suppose you are flying from right to left, upright.
Crosswind blowing from your back.
If you don't use rudder, your plane will gradually (depending on how strong the wind is) get pushed out if you keep the plane straight along the flight line.

So, the prevent the plane getting far out from the flight line, I keep slight left rudder. If you look at the plane from the top, its heading will be slightly inward.

it will be opposite when you fly back.

Not all plane fly same way because of different design and wind penetration characteristics.

My plane get pushed a lot because of large flat sides.
The surface area of vertical stab and rudder also make differences.

Speed of the plane also makes difference.

So, PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE!!! :mad:
With a COACH or a CALLER who can tell you if your plane is moving inward or outward.

When I concentrate on my plane, I often forget where my plane is heading. :stupid:

Was my explanation correct?

Please!! Correct me if I am wrong.

Hmmm, I always write too long. :D

Pattern practice help
 

GW/Patternflyer,
Thanks for the input. Let's see if I understand this correctly:
Flying left to right, wind at my back and holding right rudder to stay crabbed into the wind so that my ground track stays parallel to the runway. Now I pull to a 45 for my entry into a 1/2 reverse cuban 8, with rudder correction staying the same. Neutralize rudder, roll inverted, and put in a left rudder correction. Hold this left rudder through the rest of the maneuver and into the flight back parallel to the runway. Now flying right to left with left rudder, pull through a 5/8 loop to a 45 down holding the same rudder. Neutralize the rudder, roll upright and put in right rudder for the flight up wind. Next, for the two inside loops at show center looks like I would hold the same rudder correction all the way through. Ok? Am I understanding this correctly?

Pattern practice help
 

Your on the correct path now. Its not that you will always hold the same rudder throughout the maneuver, just the corrections needed to maintain heading. It may need to be held through the maneuver, or it may only need slight corrections at different intervals along the path. Thats where burning fuel makes these things second nature. You will almost feel what you need before your plane actually needs it. The more you know your plane, the more you will know what its going to need in certain circumstances to keep the flight level , on heading, pretty and graceful.

Pattern practice help
 

Richard,

If you pull with rudder applied, your flying path will most likely be incorrect.

Best way to realize who to look at a certain condition is using a small (stick or anything) plane to visualize the path and attitude of the plane.

As GW explained above, rudder is for correction only in this discussion.

1/2 Reverse Cuban Eight, Flying left to right, wind from back. >> Keep right rudder for straight flight line. This will steer your plane slightly to right (skidding attitude).

Now visualize your plane from top it will be like \ >> (the bottom of this back slash is the front of your plane although it is not that much).
If you pull elevator with rudder applied, where will your heading be?

Your heading will be inward causing more correction.
You need to release (or adjust) the rudder right before pulling, so that the plane pulls at the attitude of straight flying along the flight line without any tilting.

Once pulled, re-apply (or adjust) the rudder for wind correction to keep the path.

release rudder, 1/2 roll to invert, apply left rudder to stay on path.

release or adjust rudder to loop and stay on the flight path to finish the manuever.

I am not 100% correct here because releasing or adjusting rudder make differences.
You will have to familiarize yourself to many different conditions.

So, go out to field and burn fuel.

Pattern practice help
 

This is all god but if you have a plane that really weather vanes bad it can actually do just the opposite the plane can come in if the wind is to your back that's why you don't get any replies to this type of question it is very plane specific, the Prophecy that I fly as my 2nd back acts different than the Focus which is my backup to the Smaragd that is different than both. If this make any sense one plane I have to use the opposite rudder to correct.
Steve Maxwell

Pattern practice help
 

Excellent description Mr Park.
Your way with words is many times better than mine .

I never realized how hard this would be to explain till I tried to do it above. I also didn't realize all the inputs I may or may not make during a sequence ,given a certain set of circumstances, till I sat down and decided to give this topic a reply. Good thing my flying is a small bit better than my commentary on flying.

Pattern practice help
 

Good point Steve. Many variables to this stuff! More than we can explain.

Pattern practice help
 

Convince the judges to rotate the field 90 degrees so there is no crosswind :)

Pattern practice help
 

Ok, Who woke Marc up? :)

Pattern practice help
 

Steve's description is also correct. :p
I actually was writing that prior to my first reply to this thread, but it is not always happen and I feel that it depends on design. So, I re wrote the whole reply as basic.

Quote from my first posting. "Not all plane fly same way because of different design and wind penetration characteristics. "


GW,
Thank you very much for kind words. I try to hook more people to Pattern in my area just to have people to practice with and go to contests together. So far no success.

Just call me Ihncheol or just Park. More than half the people that I know call me "Park" because of hard pronounciation of my Korean first name. :D

Actually, I have to call you Mr. W. :)

RC Admin,
If you can convince the judges, you should also be able to convince the AMA for regulation change regarding NOT being able to fly over the pit area. ;)

With lots of cross wind, I had very little time to trim my plane correctly. :mad:

Pattern practice help
 

Hey Richard

The skills learned as a pattern pilot are very difficult to relay with the written word, without visual keys.

Rudder is one of the skills that even Advanced pilots are still battling with, and Masters pilots still make occ mistakes with.

As stated above, not every plane responds the same. My buddies Prophecy and my Olympian land completely differently in regard to rudder correction, so it is not helpful to give advice unless you can see what is happening in the air.

With all this said, call Don's Hobby Shop and order his 2 books, especially crosswind flying. This is an extremely well written book and explains many many aspects of precision flying.

A large number of pattern skills have to be mostly self-awareness kinda things. This doesn't make it hopeless. There are a number of techniques you can use.

1) First, fly level. When we look up at a plane from the ground we often times see the wings in a "canted" attitude. On a fairly calm day or with slight wind straight down the pipe make striaght level passes. At the ends smoothly pull up to vertical and see if the plane pulls to the left or right consistently. If so, then that wing tip is slightly lower than the other. This is key because it is a trick to adjust for a crosswind later. Once pulling striaght up to vertical(same is true for a loop, figure 8, immelman, etc)

2) Remember the rudder does different things when plane is right side up as opposed to inverted. First thing with rudder is does it affect the track of the plane in a bad way. Does the nose pitch up or down with rudder or does the plane try to roll with rudder. If either is true then we need to try to use a little mixing with rudder so the plane will still fly without pitch(up or down) or roll(ailerons) That is a whole nother subject. Once plane is trimmed well

3) When upright the rudder input moves the nose of the plane the same direction, just like taxiing on the ground. When inverted the rudder moves the tail of the plane the same direction. So if you need to help the plane crab to the right while right side up, to adjust for crosswind or heading adjustment, slowly add as little rudder as neeeded to get the plane to keep the line you are after. Some planes will crab on their own and actually keep a fairly straight line, others will get pushed off heading and some will need oposite rudder to keep their heading. The trick is to see the line in your mind and work to get the plane on that track.

4) to you question of an immelman, again every plane will react differently. On trick is to use ail to dip the wing slightly, that is on the wind direction side. The plane will track into the wind slightly and is very helpful to keep the same track.
If you are holding rudder to maintain a heading, the same rudder will be requred until you do a 1/2 roll. For instance, if you are holding right rudder in and you do a loop, you probably will be able to hold the right rudder throughout the entire loop. There wasn't any 1/2 roll to change the orientation of the plane so right rudder will accomplish the same thing throughout the loop, and the track before and after, assuming wings stayed perfectly level t/o the loop(difficult to do also) As the wings move from level your rudder inputs will need to be changed.

5) Try some crosswind stall turns. Once you pull vertical, you may have to give rudder to maintain a straight line up. Again some planes crab into the wind some may need opposite rudder. After the rotation of the stall, don't be afraid to use some rudder on the down line to keep the line straight. This is needed at times also. Ugly yes, but we are after the line the CG of the plane draws.

As you can see, it is very difficult to discuss this as this is getting very long. Practice practice practice and pay very close attention to the heading and track of the plane. Keep mental notes to what worked today, yesterday etc. Go to every contest you can and talk with everyone. Volunteer to scribe as you get a different perspective of the planes flying and why the judge gave a 9 or a 3. When appropriate ask the judge questions.

Learning these things can be frustrating by yourself, but they are possible. Self-aware learning has a way of being very fulfulling. Once you see what you want the plane to do, then strive to accomplish it, there is plenty of reason to get out to the field.

Hope this helps and sorry for being so long winded. By the way, this whole exercise applies to IMAC as well.

Ed

Pattern practice help
 

Ed,

Great explanation above.
I am not a certified NSRCA judge, but have a question regarding the #4 dipping the wing slightly.

Yes, I've tried that.
However, isn't that going to cause degrading per the rule book?

Pattern practice help
 

If the wing dip is visible, yes there should be a deduction.

The trick is to try and mask the wing dip so as not to be detectable, or minimally detectable.

If you dip the wing as you are pulling elev. and the dip is very slight it may go totally unnoticed. If you dip the wing prior to the pull, then it will be obvious. Same notion as the downline pull on a stall turn, if the wings aren't totally level on the downline, you will encure a smaller deduction if you adjust the wings as you exit, as opposed to making the change on the downline where everyone can see it.

Also, I/m talking about very small amounts of wing changes.

In Don's book he also brings up there are better places to do this where the plane is in a better position, or more difficult to discern by the judges. The pilot has a better feel for what is going on as he/she is controlling the plane. For instance, on a loop, on the backside as the plane goes from the back side down to ending level is the best time to do this.

Another idea to maintain heading in crosswind is to try and roll with the canopy into the wind. So practice 1/2 rolls, slow rolls, 2 of 4 pt rolls and 4 pt rolls rolling both directions, left and right. It does feel different.

Ed

Re: Pattern practice help
 

I have no real answer for you, but I tried this with two different planes last week and I found that neither rudder nor ailerons did me any good. The only things I could to to make it appear straight was a lot of power, and to do the correction before the manouver. (Meaning I can't do any corrections once I've stared a 1/2 reverse cuban 8, I set it up before the roll on the 45 deg. up leg and live with the way it comes out :( ) And I found that at less than half power, the nose would weir into the wind big time.

Pattern practice help
 

Thanks to all of you for the great input. I am practicing as much as I can and I will strive to get some observer/caller help. Hope I didn't hack anyone off with the bit of sarcasm that started this going, but I just wasn't making much progress in my flying and my first contest is only a month away. I was getting a little frustrated.

Pattern practice help
 

I coach/spotter is essential. As you focus on the manuver your spotter can see things you cant pay attention to as a beginner. I am in the same boat as you...starting out at precision aerobatics. Every Saterday night I call my Pattern/IMAC clubmates and schedule things so a few of us are at the field at the same time.

FYI, Spotting for more experienced fliers is just as valuable as getting coached. Especially if they call out what they are doing.

Pattern practice help
 

Hey guys,

An airplane with rudder applied will not hold a heading or a line. If you hold rudder across the box, you will fly an arc.
Billy

Here's what I do.
 

I make sure the plane flighs straight on a calm day with no computer trim, just mechanical trim.

Now when I fly I use the both methods of using the rudder and dipping one wingtip in to the wind. When I use the aileron I use enough so that it flighs straight but not so it is noticed from the judges. I use this method in mild to heavy winds.

Now when i fly with the rudder I apply just enouch to make it fly straight .The rudder method is better for light to mild winds with my airplane.

On uplines I use the rudder and depending maybe a little up or down elevator. When I do my stall turn Turn to the direction of wind. Now the real trick is adding opposite rudder right after the turn is made so that there is no heading change.
With loops I usually fly the airplane and use all four controls.

Remember the plane is supposed to fligh in a straight line meaning the plane can be headed into the wind.

One other thing that helped me was living in chicago. Every now and then on a windy day at the field, i'll look up and watch the airplanes landing in O'hare and see how the airplane acts.

I hope this clears up some things, but then again I'm only 15 and I'm right maybe once out of a thousand times. But seriously i hope this helps anyone out there.

Chris

Pattern practice help
 

Don Ramsey has an excellent coverage on rudder control here http://www.cox-internet.com/donramsey/FourthControl.htm You'll find a wealth of other pattern flying goodies too........

Pattern practice help
 

Hi Richardfast,

You are right, there is not much info on the "how" section of "flying." In fact, "how" to fly a good looking maneuver in any flight direction or with any amount of wind from any direction is nearly unexplainable. The pilot, the criteria for getting a "10" is pretty clear, but how to do it from flight to flight, or day to day is not clear. In order to do this, you need a certain skill set. The skills to perform the manuevers are the easiest to understand.

However, the MOST important skill IMHO is PERCEPTION. And, this skill takes the most time and practice to gain. It is also the first to leave you if you stop practicing. IMHO, these are the most important things to learn:

Again, PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION, PERCEPTION, PERCPTION!

1. PERCEPTION: Learn to the see the model correctly in any attitude. If you are "seeing" it deviated from what you KNOW is the proper attitude, you can LEARN to correct the error. This is an equal combination of usually WATCHING higher class flyers, practice with a coach, and practice grinding it out by yourself (and foul words if necessary). Perception of your model will also allow you to "see" mistakes before they happen. For instance, you have decided to leave a small dip in the wing prior to the start of the next maneuver. You do this so that the judges don't "see" you obviously fixing a small mistake. Thus, I "know" that to pull a radius that "looks" correct (given one wing is dipped), that I will need twice the usual oppisite rudder, and to breathe in the aileron fix 50% through the radius, simultaniously releasing some of the rudder. However, do not release all the rudder, or the tail might waggle (which creates a visual que to the judges that you have done "something" wrong they did not see before). I don't think you can write enough about how important perception is. One trick to give your vision a paradigm shift is to simply double your baseline height for a few sequences.

2. At each class, the next most important aspect of flying skill is (get ready to be bored) (drum-roll please) STRAIGHT, WINGS LEVEL FLIGHT. You absolutely cannot escape this fundamental! The winners of each class from Sportsman to FAI separate themselves not by how good the snap of one maneuver looks, but by the quality of the linking of maneuvers and the mastering of fundementals. What was once a good enough straight line to win the Advanced Nats, looks more like sport-flying at the Masters level. A honing of the fundamentals at each level will reward you tremendously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. The next most important skill is "entry and exit" of ANY maneuver. Entering the maneuver correctly gives you a "chance" to perform it correctly, exiting it correctly allows you to "link" the whole maneuver set together. In fact, as your PERCEPTION improves, you will continually find errors in how you enter and exit a maneuver. Once you "see" the error, you can "learn" to fix it on the spot.

Thus far:
1. Perception
2. Straight wings level flight
3. Maneuver entry and exit

Finally: As your perception improves, and you learn to get the plane to do what you want, you will start a very important transformation. You need to become "plane" centered instead of "tranmitter" centered. The judges don't care what your transmitter stick positions indicate the plane is doing. The only "que" to the judges is what your plane is doing. Thus, your "que" should be the plane as well. Release your preconcived notions, fears, or hessitations. To fly a straight line, it "might" require use of rudder, elevator, and aileron - thats OK. Flying a perfect loop with a cross wind will UNDOUBTEDLY require flying ALL THREE FLIGHT AXIS - and thats OK. The plane will not fall out of the sky or something if all of a sudden you find that you need lots of control input to get something to look nice. Transforming to a plane centered approach will allow you to be "ahead" of the plane. If you continually focus on the tranmitter, you will always be "behind" the plane.

One reason the real "Master-Grasshoppers" don't post much of the "how" to fly stuff, is that the more "plane-focused" you become, the more "natural" the flying becomes, and the "less" aware they are of making the actual corrections.

Without improving your perception, the maneuvers will always be a mystery and incosistent! This is one reason that attending contests is so important to "learning" how to fly pattern. And now young pattern grasshopper, you too are ready spread your wings and fly!
Jim Woodward
(my pattern wings are still a little wet. I too would like to hear how the big guys to it)

Pattern practice help
 

Hey Jim!

Truly excellent response there, (I think it's worth a print in the K-Factor! Would you mind submitting it?). It really struck a chord with me, because I know that perception is my number 1 (and 2 and 3) problem with my pattern flying. It was easier when I had my sister as my caller/coach, as she has a good set of eyes. But now I'm on my own, in a place where I'm the only one flying pattern (come to think of it, the only one flying precision aerobatics of any kind). And I'm frustrated because I'm very comfortable with the sticks, I have no real issues with corrections, it's just SEEING the plane right to know "which/how much/when" on the inputs. And I notice, that due to our field setup (awkward) I'm usually flying further out on the left than on the right, while trying to do my center maneuvers centered. That leaves me feeling too rushed coming in from the right (regardless of which way I'm flying the sequence, wind from left or wind from right). I'll admit, I'm kinda lost, so I was wondering if you had any words of wisdom to help me train myself to see things better? Thanks Jim.

Cheers,
Ken
NSRCA 2997