Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Hi,
I have been around R.C. for about seven years now and would be considered a scale and warbird buff who also likes to sport fly now and then. The first time I saw a pattern plane fly I noticed that the pilot "chopped" the throttle killing the engine just before the wheels touched. I have seen quite a number of pattern planes since then and have observed this to be a common thing for pattern pilots to do. I have always wondered what the purpose of killing the engine before touchdown is. I don't want to appear to be dumber than I really am so I have quietly asked a couple of the guys I fly with about this (they're not pattern guys either) and have been given answers like "They do it to keep from damaging the prop" or "Aw, they're just showing off". These answers don't make sense to me. I don't want to damage props either so I try my best not to land on them and I don't think it takes any special talent to cut the throttle trim while landing. I never hear pattern guys talk about this killing the engine thing so I think maybe they're sworn to secrecy like K.F.C. employees who have to promise never to divulge the Col's secret reciept. So, how about it guys? Is anyone willing to enlighten me or do I have to take up pattern flying to find out? I sure hope not 'cause I don't think I possess the dedication or disclipine I feel is required to be a good pattern pilot. Thanks in advance to all who are willing to share the answer.
Respectfully.
Steve

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

"Is anyone willing to enlighten me or do I have to take up pattern flying to find out?"
I'm terribly sorry, but I think you'll have to start flying pattern ;) I stop the engine mostly in order to get the plane to stop before the end of the field, that's all there's to it, for me at least. I'm sure someone else has more complex ideas of it though.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I saw someone do that a recently and asked. I was told it was to avoid possible damage to the crank shaft caused by a prop strike. It was a YS engine... perhaps it is an issue with YS engines.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I always figured it had to do with getting the plane to stop too. If they can fly precision aerobatics my guess is they can land with out banging a prop, at least no more than the rest of us.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I guess I'm the odd one!

My engine actually stays running most of the time, unless it idles too low. I believe this occurs because of people pulling their idle trim back to slow the airplane, you have to remember, pattern planes are very clean, even the newer ones with larger fuses and fixed gear, and they are very light too, making them have lower stall speed.

I am running a Webra 1.45 on my Hydeout and when I begin to set up to land, I pull the throttle trim back 4-5 clicks (I fly with the throttle trim centered) because the engine is making too much thrust to slow the plane down enough to land. Now with the engine not pulling as hard, I can grease on a full stall landing and be stopped in front of me.

I have noticed that 99% of the time with my friend's YS powered Smaragds, the engine will die right before the wheels touch.

I hope that I explained this OK. ;)

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

If I'm not mistaken, during competition the engine must be running at touch down. Right? Just what I thought I read somewhere

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Engine does not have to be running at touchdown! Speaking for myself I was trained by a pattern pilot...his reasoning was that it was one less thing to worry about for a student pilot trying to get the landing setup just right...and well taught habits tend to stick.
However, flying a Webra 1.45 I personally find much more control when I have the engine running at touchdown as the large prop acts as a brake. The few times I have had to land dead-stick I found that the plane floated on much further. And the Webra 145 is a lovely engine to land...back three or four clicks from the centre and the plane will come smoothly in on a very reliable engine tickover. Interesting that it appears to be the four-stroke guys who tend to kill the engine isn't it?

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Goes to show what I know. :rolleyes:

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I have a friend here who does that all the time. I keep telling him that if I wanted to have to carry the model back I would get out my free flight models! This is R/C after all, you're supposed to bring the model back to you!

Right Troy?

Practicing I never shut off the engine unless I have to. Saves time being able to taxi back, and I want to get my model off the runway as soon as I can.

Just Habit
 

Its not a crankshaft thing...Its not really a prop thing...even though in years past it might have been with me......

Its just habit......For me at least....I usually don't have a very good steerable tail wheel so it almost useless trying to drive back.....

But Yes as Tony says this is really RC as in you can have control on the ground....I don't place much priority on being able to taxi my model.....my opinion is who cares if you can taxi this isn't like its an RC car.....My fun is when its in the air......


Now in competition flights your caller or helper goes and picks up the model...Taxi time is wasted time in the event...So you don't taxi and there is no reason to keep it running after it touches down......



Troy

Grass fields and retracts
 

For years we flew planes with retracts on grass fields. They don't mix well. For the most part the retracts were very weak and fragile so it wasn't a good idea to be taxiing with them. At our field we never taxi for takeoff either. Someone always places the plane out on the field for takeoff. This helps to make sure the engine is cleared out and warmed up properly. With fixed gear things are due for a change. I'm really glad that this thread was started because now that you bring it up it does seem silly. The only thing missing now will be the loss of exercise from not having to run after everyones plane. Mike

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

When I was flying Pattern here in Texas, we shut the engine off on landing for two reasons. Number one, once you kill the engine, you're committed to landing, and the plane stays down. They do not remove points for the engine running or not. The landing itself is what was judged.

Second is, when you're flying competition, our group always carried out planes onto the runway for each other, and we always had someone to pick the plane up after landing, so taxi around was never a consideration. There were always too many people around for taxi, and the contest went much faster and smoother when you had someone to carry on and off. When 40 pilots were there to fly 5 or 6 rounds in two days, you had to move things along.

That's why I would kill the engine on landing. But only during competition. During practice, I would fly like anyone else.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Here's my .02 ---
I've been flying pattern about year now and just moved up to a larger plane ( Vortex ) with a YS120FZ.
A few things re: the previous posts-
- I don't think it's a crank shaft issue with YS's. They are pretty solid.
- I know at least on my plane, it is very clean, ie little drag. Combine that with a 15x11 prop, and even at idle you have significant pull. I kill mine when I am about six feet high and have just called "LANDING Beginning Now ". If I don't, yes I can fly it down to landing, but it will roll out off the opposite end of the runway.
- My aircraft does not steer well on the ground either, as someone previously mentioned.
- re: banging the prop - Well, they are $12-$16 a whack..... :) Haven't banged one in some time, thankfully. Usually happens in the pits with me as I lift up the tail.....

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I've done it for more than 25 years. Idle wasn't always that reliable back then. Now I hate 'driving my plane around - inverted engines suck up lots of crap into the carb and the prop. Also prevents stupid accidents (not that pattern fliers ever have them...). I can get my plane on and off the field faster. Tony, you may 'drive' your planes very efficiently, but have you ever been circling the runway waiting to land while somebody drives around trying to get lined up to take-off?
The last club I belonged to had a paved runway, but it was pretty narrow. A lot of guys would try to turn around and run out room. They'd either have to run out or they'd 'fall' off the edge of the runway usually killing the engine.
Of course I always kill the engine when making vertical 'landings' :-)
-Will B.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

For me it is the follwing:

1. The dead prop has the least amount of thrust shortening the roll-out.

2. Many field hosting the competitions are very small. I consider it safer when landing in close proximity to myself and the judges to kill the motor.

3. Once the field is made, no problem. Taxiing is nothing but unecessary wear on my Kevlar fuselage and I'd rather have my airplane carried by my caller.

3. An airplane sitting with motor shut down will never nose over or ground loop or have any other, however remotely possible idiotic freak occurence, happen to end the day.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I've seen a lot of excu - er - reasons. The valid ones in my mind are the field conditions. And at contests, fine. This may sound harsh, but if your engine won't idle slow enough to land, fix it or get a better engine. If your tailwheel won't let you steer properly, fix it. If your model noses over easily, change it. If it's too weak to simply taxi, build it stronger.

Some big negatives to shutting it off. If you hit a hard gust, you can't power out and save the model. If you shut off, you have limited your options in case something happens and you should go around. Like somebody taxiing out in front of you. Happens all the time.

Frankly, I more often have to wait to land because a pattern model was shut off and the owner has to go out and get it. This is radio control!!! Land and taxi back just like every other RC model.

Just an opinion guys. I do have good fields to fly out of.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

This is radio control flying, not taxiing. Pattern models are meant to fly pattterns, not have pleasant ground control characteristics.
Also, from what I have seen, the engines are usually ut about 4 feet from the ground, just before touch down. By then, your caller should have already checked if there is anything on the runway, and the pilot should have warned that he is landing.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

I can't say I've seen it very often, but here's 2 possible reasons why stopping the engine just before touch-down might be a good idea:-

1/ Pattern aircraft are as streamlined as possible to reduce drag when performing smooth slow aerobatics. This also has the effect of making it difficult to stop once landed, especially with the engine running, even if it's only idling. Stopping the engine shortens the run-out.

2. Since some aerobatics demand slowing the engine to idle (hammerheads, for instance) there is a high possibility that the engine might stop. Increasing the idle a bit will tend to avoid this, but item 1/ above then becomes even more difficult.

My 2d!

David C.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Wow, Tony.
Your reference to "excuses" is the reason for this response. It kinda fired me up.
OK Team JR, let's look at the facts.

For starters, how about responsiblilty after some one calls "LANDING" that the field is clear? How many sport flyers even BOTHER to call landing?
What about dead sticks? The fault is still the same. Plus, I practice alone at the field or at least have a caller with me if there are other flyers. How many sport flyers have someone behind them watching and communicating while they fly? Kind of presents a problem in dead sticks, etc, doesn't it?
Re big gusts / plane on the field - we dont shut it off 1/4 mile out. It's on the threshold. Or closer. Cant handle it? Shouldnt be flying. I deal with gusts all the time. It gets done. We do it when we know we can make the field and have it safely.
Tailwheel? Fields vary. I fly off 20ft wide by 300ft long asphalt. Try to turn a 2m pattern plane on that. Let's see YOU taxi out and back your $3000 Angels Shadow every time you fly ( for example only, I don't own one but wish I did )

How about Scale planes? Ever try to turn one in a short distance? Should we all just move to a field that suits our needs as flyers, or adapt to our given conditions? How much fun would that be?
Do you fly Masters in So. Cal? It's the only Tony F I can find on the NSRCA district 7 page.
Go team Futaba!
Respectfully disagreeing,

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Boy, I sure stirred the pot, didn't I!

Chris, as I said, if the field conditions dictate, fine, shut off if you must. And operations during a contest are another matter. But if the practice field is adequate, there really is no reason why a pattern flier cannot demonstrate sufficient control over their model to be able to land and taxi off the runway. And unless you're flying F3A, all flights start with a judged take-off and end with a judged landing. So good ground control should be a requirement of any design being flown in those classes.

I used the word excuses, tongue firmly in cheek, because many of the technical reasons some were using here for shutting off the engine, IMO, don't hold water. Pattern model are not really super sleek designs. In fact, current designs have added drag to help control the speed in flight. If the engine won't idle low enough to land, there really is something wrong with it. Every engine I have ever used in competition could be set-up to idle very well, certainly well enough to keep it running during the landing. Do I use a slightly higher idle in flight, yes. But I can alway lower it for the landing.

Anyway, you guys do whatever you feel you need to do. But I'll still think it's silly if I'm at big field and a pattern flier can't land the model without killing the engine. I guess I'm just "old school".

Tony, you are my inspiration!!!
 

I zeroed a take off yesterday because of a bad tail wheel (a five yeay old MK screaming for replacement). It cost me around five places. Dumb dumb dumb.

I called my shop this morning at 0600 to bring a tal wheel. Geez, that was easy!!! Wow, he sounded groggy. I think they like to sleep at 0600 Sunday. LOL.

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Tony-
Right on. That's the beauty of this - we all have our own opinions. One never knows what one will glean from someone else's.
I do understand what you are saying. It has just become such common practice to kill it that I don't even notice it as odd anymore. At least at my home field. It is a luxury to have a 400-600 foot x 60 runway at some of these competitions though!
Geez, Tony, if I rip out my retracts now because I'm practicing your "new maneuver"....... :)
Beginning Landing Now!!!!!

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Actually that's not quite true Mark. A rotating propeller in the dimensions we use on pattern airplanes running below 2000 rpm actually produces more drag than thrust.. and becomes a very good brake. You just need a good idle.

-Doug

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

WOW,
This certainly has been an interesting and enlightening discussion, at least for me. I had no idea that this thread would generate the amount of response that it has. I sincerly appreciate the input guys. Some of the reasons given make perfect sense given the condition's described, ie: short fields etc.but......... I have seen guys do this when they still have 500 ft. of pavement in front of them after the plane stops. Grass fields and retracts? mmmmmmmm.......NO. I have too much experience with retracts on grass fields to think thats a valid reason. I think the bottom line is a good number of guys don't REALLY know what the reason is, They just do it that way.......because it's tradition and that's O.K. by me 'cause I think tradition is a good thing (most of the time). I think TonyF says it best in posts #16 and #20. I'll try to keep this lite and suggest that it all started way back in the dawn of pattern history when some "pattern guru" had his engine set up just a tad lean and when he throttled back to land it died. And when asked why his engine died he responded that he had it set up to do that so as not to damage the prop...or, so it won't run off the end of the field or some such. Anyway, thanks again to all who tried to help me with this question and let me say that after all is said and done, the guys who fly pattern and fly it well deserve our utmost respect for the dedication and discipline that I KNOW is required to do what they do. I certainly could'nt do it.
Thanks again guys.
Steve


(P.S. I have to agree with TonyF 'cause.......I fly JR too. LOL)

Why do pattern guys do this?
 

Some people say why, some say why not.
However, I know why they do it, its actually quite simple.....


To annoy everyone else......D'uh......