Pattern Plane Progression
 

I was just wondering what your thoughts were on when and why to move into a 'better' pattern plane. What did your progression look like, and what would you do differently?

Most of you know I'm flying the Venus IIwith a YS 1.10. I'm sure the plane is much more capable than Iam (even though Ihave a 'strange' habit of blaming things on the plane =), and for a while Iwasn't thinking about more planes, but lately I've just been really curious to see what a 'better' plane would fly like, and how much easier to setup (if any) than the Venus.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Joe,

What class are you flying this year?

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I'm still flying Sportsman. I started flying RC last summer and have competed in (3?) meets so far. I just started trying some more advanced maneuvers and had a lot of fun doing them (square loops, figure M, humpty bump, and some outside loop stuff with inverted exits).

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

My first contest was with a PL Products Partner with a 1.60DZ.

Move up when your bank account can handle it, nobody is going to look down on you for flying a good setup in the lower classes. Don't equate having a top of the line airplane with winning against someone with a smaller airplane, but there are no rules as far as progression.

It's a hobby, do what you want to do!

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

&lt;meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">&lt;meta content="Word.Document" name="ProgId">&lt;meta content="Microsoft Word 10" name="Generator">&lt;meta content="Microsoft Word 10" name="Originator"><![if gte mso 9]><xml><w:worddocument><w:view></w:view><w:browserlevel></w:browserlevel></w:worddocument></xml><![endif]><style type="text/css"><! Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}@page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;}div.Section1 {page:Section1;}></style><![if gte mso 10]><style type="text/css"> Style Definitions */table.MsoNormalTable{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;mso-style-noshow:yes;mso-style-parent:"";mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;mso-para-margin:0in;mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}Good answer!!! Good answer !!</style><![endif]><p class="MsoNormal">&lt;meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" />&lt;meta content="Word.Document" name="ProgId" />&lt;meta content="Microsoft Word 10" name="Generator" />&lt;meta content="Microsoft Word 10" name="Originator" />&lt;link href="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\MARKCA~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\cli p_filelist.xml" rel="File-List" /><![if gte mso 9]><xml><w:WordDocument><w:View>Normal</w:View><w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom><w:Compatibility><w:BreakWrappedTables /><w:SnapToGridInCell /><w:WrapTextWithPunct /><w:UseAsianBreakRules /></w:Compatibility><w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetE xplorer4</w:BrowserLevel></w:WordDocument></xml><![endif]><style type="text/css"><! Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}@page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;}div.Section1 {page:Section1;}></style><![if gte mso 10]><style> Style Definitions */table.MsoNormalTable{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;mso-style-noshow:yes;mso-style-parent:"";mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;mso-para-margin:0in;mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}</style><![endif]><p class="MsoNormal">Good answer!!! Good answer !!</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal">Hay Ryan whats up???</p> <o:p>
</o:p></p></meta&gt;</meta&gt;</meta&gt;</meta&gt;

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

If your bank account can handle it, the next logical progression would be to something like a Focus Sport ($295 from Central Hobbies).  Your YS 110 will do well in it and it flies a lot closer to modern pattern planes than the Venus II.  If you decide to go that way, follow Troy's thread on setup and you should end up with a good competitive plane through Intermediate if not Advanced.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

This is one of the things Iwas hoping to talk about. Is a plane like the Focus Sport really that much better? What is it about planes that make them 'better'?

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I'm not sure I'm qualified to talk about WHY it flies differently, but I have flown both and I currently fly a Focus II.  The Focus Sport flies very much like the Focus II.  The Venus simply does not fly as sooth as the Focus.  The Focus has a much stiffer fuselage than the Venus which lends itself to more consistency.  It is also has a smaller wing area (780 sq inches vs 866 sq inches) which I would assume makes it a bit more stable in windy conditions.  Beyond that, I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

The Focus sport was designed as a full blown competitive pattern plane.  The Venus II is an ARF designed to sort of resemble a pattern plane.  The Focus has a much better wing design for flying different maneuvers.  The Focus Sport is based off of the Focus II, which is still a competitive plane up until about Masters.  The biggest difference is the wing and the moments on the plane.  The Focus Sport does fly CONSIDERABLY better than the Venus II.

Arch

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Iimagine the DS821s wouldn't really cut it??

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

There is no "better" or "best" plane. the Only is the plane fit for you.

Fit for your capability
Fit for your wallet
Fit for your .......http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...eeth_smile.gif

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Here is a link to a good/better/best servo scenario: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6434468

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

DS821's are excellent servos, and are suitable for everything except maybe rudder, where more power is good. Run them on 6 volts for more speed and power. I know of many fliers that use them successfully, even in some of the upper classes. they are very precise, plenty of power for ailerons and elevators, and fast enough on 6 volts. With the money you save, buy and burn more fuel to practice.

Jon

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Get a good 2 meter pattern ship with a wood fuse . Why not composite ? Because it can take less than perfect landings and other abuse . And it's easier to repair.Learn to build and always do your own repairs. You'll learn a great deal.
One more thing. Having the latest design isn't a must until you reach the top.My age and physical limitations have brought me to the threshold of the infamous Peter Principle , so I'm satisfied with what worked 3-5 years ago.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Hey Joe,

My son and I are both flying DS821's on ailerons and I do have a old focus using it for elevator too. These servo's are great in my opinion and I fly primarely Futaba. They are a carbonite geared servo so they don't wear like a metal geared servo and they are a little stronger than the nylon geared servos. At 6 volts they are at 88oz and a speed of .16. Don't be scared to use them and like Jon said you should use a servo on rudder that has more torque. Just my 2 cents.

Larry</p>

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I'll agree with larry on the 821s for the ailerons. They work. on a DEPS set up they'd be fine on the elevator as well. Too heavy for 2 servos in the stabs.

The rudder is the beast so all you can afford there.

Throttle: small but not micro. I have seen a lot of people use micros on the throttle and have seen more than a few fail. A mini doesn't fail and it lasts pretty much the life of the plane.

As for the plane itself: Well ok I'm biased but hear me out. Like you I started with a 40 sized plane, but realized before I ever went to my first contest that I wanted to 'do pattern". It wasn't an experiment, I wanted to do it and I knew it. So I scracth built a 2 meter wood Typhoon 2000, pretty huge and cutting edge plane at the time. I NEVER regretted it.

I hate to spend money twice. if pattern is something you know you want to do, go ahead and gear up for a good reliable 2 meter plane. Wood planes are awfully hard to beat especially for someone flying a lot and mving up through the classes. they will take years of abuse and are much easier to repair. Nowadays there are a couple of designs that give up NOTHING to the top of the line 2 meter composite imports. Except time and patience to build them. or a deep wallet to pay someone else to build it....

Where do you start to feel the need for a better plane? It's personal. I felt it in sportsman, but it wasn't so much my skills as just that I knew what I wanted. For most people you can have a good measure of success with anything that flies and rolls straight up until somehwere in advanced. if you become a well accomplished advanced pilot, you'll start to see and feel the shortcomings of a plane if it has them. You will know. It will hit you like a ton of bricks some day that you're fighting the plane. in most cases you can learn your set up better and address it that way as long as the design is solid. but if you're flying an older glitchy plane, and you're trying to crack the top of the advanced class, you'll feel it then.

in order to get a great plane you have to have either one of 2 things: time or money. There is no substitute for one or the other. You can get a fantastic plane right out of the box, but you better be ready to spend a few thousand dollars to get it. or you can get a kit, or even a scracth build, and save a good bit of money, especially in the long term, but it is a lot of work and you have to enjoy it.

Hope that helped, lots of good advice already.

-Mike

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

What Mike says is true, don't do it twice of you are really into it. Moving from small to bigger to biggests will cost more. If you really know that you want to fly pattern then get a nice plane. I tried so many planes in my RC hobby so far but realised I spent much more that my pal who jumped to a good but more expensive plane. He flies much better than me too.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Thanks guys, I appreciate what all of you have said.<div></div><div>The Focus Sport sounds great as it's inexpensive and I can use all the parts from my Venus. It will also fit easily in my small car and apartment.</div><div></div><div>In relation to what Mike and tIANci have shared, I have bought and sold a handful of planes because I was not thrilled with the way they fly. I even have another I am considering dumping if the price is right.</div><div></div><div>I really liked pattern when I first started trying it. I thought I was starting to have less fun with it by practicing all the time, until I started trying some new, more advanced maneuvers this week. I've have had more fun in the past two days than I can remember. My flights are not the prettiest in the world but the past two days I was deeply satisfied with the way my plane tracked through some 'higher K' maneuvers. Most of it was luck but I'll take that. There is nothing like the grace of a pattern plane tracking perfectly straight verticals, flying through equal radius loops, and centering the spins in all the lines. I had one or two really good ones yesterday and I thinnk I'm going to feel good about that for at least a week.</div><div></div><div>Having 1.5 more years of school, spending thousands on a 2M ship is probably not reasonable except for a good bargain on a used plane. I know there's at least a fully loaded Patriot/OS engine floating around out there for a good price =) I'm (fortunately or unfortunately) spoiled by YS engines and would love to stick with them.

Edit: just want to point out that Idon't think the Venus is holding me back whatsoever, and Idon't know that Inotice any of its deficits; I'm just curious. Iremember very clearly the day Iwent from a low-wing sport plane to the Venus and was absolutely in awe. Ihave a feeling by upgrading I'd experience something similar?</div>

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I know what you mean. I flew Sportsman for a year and a half and was getting bored with it. I moved up to Intermediate this year and I'm enjoying it a whole lot. Not to say the Sportsman routine is easy, but the maneuvers in and of themselves are boring (straight flight out for example). And where I was typically in the top 2 or 3 in Sportsman, I'm pulling out 4ths and 5ths now in Intermediate. Now just need topractice more. Didnt get much practice over the winter (read: NONE). Been good for 3 weeks now. Hopefully I can keep it up through the summer and be ready for the fall contests.

And yeah, when Ichanged from my older style pattern planes (Dr Jekyll II, Typhoon 2+2) to the Focus II, it was like night and day.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Joe,

The YS can drop in where an OS was without any rework. The first Partner I had had both an OS 1.40 and different YS's in it and other than a CG and pipe change, nothing else differed. If you want to look at that Patriot, you can drop a YS in there with no issues.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Guys, - Joe can't fit a 2-meter plane in his car. That sort of limits his choices. The Venus is fine. You CAN fly Masters with a Venus. Trust me. :) Sure, you wouldn't want to compete with it in Masters but Joe's only flying Sportsman right now. :)

Joe - spend money on fuel and start looking for a larger vehicle. When you get the transportation problem solved THEN look for a 2-meter ship. I don't know if a Focus Sport would make that much of a difference for you butI guess you could give it a try if you have some extra $$.

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Joe,
I've come full circle. Started with an OS91FS powered Runaround in sportsman, then built a 2M Arch Nemesis powered by a ST2300 (which, by the way, was probably my favorite plane), then an OS1.40 Focus (also an extremely nice flier), Then an OS1.40 Jupiter (which I built because I always thought they were beautiful airplanes, and flew until I moved to advanced. The Jupiter, while beautiful, would not snap for me reliably,). Then the same OS1.40 in a Temptation (which I still have), but this year I built a YS1.10 Focus Sport, mainly because it's just easier to deal with (I haven't smacked the rudder on the door frame getting it out of the basement yet!). I've decided that the 1.10 size planes fit my needs better than the 2m's and certainly in advanced, I don't think I'm giving up anything (especailly at my skill level).

I've got another large wing Runaround half built (along with Dick Hanson Zlin of the same size).

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I have been  thinking a lot about a trailer. I'm not going to be able to replace my car for two years. I think the next logical step for me is either a Focus Sport for which I already have everything I need to fly it, or a fully loaded pre-flown 2M ship. Either one would come at the end of this season after flying as much as possible.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

What kind of car do you have?  I'd be very surprised if you couldn't put at least a Focus Sport in virtually anything.  I was putting my Focus II in my Chevy Cavalier with no issues.  It currently fits just fine in my Honda Accord.  Just like another passenger.  The Focus planes have a 2 piece wing making it easier to transport.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

The Focus Sport would fit (Honda Civic 2dr). A 2M plane would be pushing it. A trailer would greatly reduce the bumps and bruises of getting in and out of the passenger door, and allow me to bring a backup plane to the field and to NATS when I finally make it.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Just two words of caution on trailers- THEY BOUNCE. Unless you have pancake flat roads , they can rattle a small plane and do damage. Yes, many of the IMAC boys use trailers, but since

their planes are much larger/ heavier, they tolerate the pounding and generally stay put with a restraining system.

Unless you have a family , consider removing the back seat if it is possible.

Leave the front seat in just in case you get lucky...

Ron Lockhart carries a 2 meter ship in a Toyota Scion. If your Civic is a 2 door hatchback; they're about the same size.If my memory serves me,he removes the spinner &amp;prop.Also, it's not really hard to do a removable rudder.

Good Luck !

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Ya.  I had to remove the wheel pants to fit the Focus II in my Cavalier.  You can usually make them fit with a little forethought.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Heck at the Andersonville contest a couple weeks back jason shulman came to the contest with a acura Integra. and was able to fit his Integral in there.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I think it depends on the want/must have factor, I had to have a plane with a pipe and retracts back in the early days, then when I got back into it a few years ago,  I got a 40 size then 90 size pattern plane, then had to have a 2 meter.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Yeah, it's kind of tricky! What do I want? Planes I can't afford and have no business flying - Pinnacle, Beryll, etc. Need? My Venus is pretty much all I need.

I wish there was a way to quantify the difference between the Focus Sport and the Venus.

My car is NOT a hatch back which makes it difficult. The space betweenthe top and bottom of the trunk where the trunk meets the back seat isthe limiting part. I think I could squeeze 78".

Maybe I'll just keep my eyes and ears open for the right used plane at the right time.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

How about building a box that can be attached to the roof of the car to haul the large parts?

Terry in LP

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

if theres a will you will find a way my friend

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Does the Focus Sport have an adjustable stab? Do most planes? Of if not do you just set everything up (engine&amp;wing) based on the stab...

I think I'd really like a plane that had some kind of incidence adjustability that didn't require surgery.

Actually Ithink that might be one of the biggest reasons I'm interested in another plane. Not that there's anything wrong with the way my Venus is flying but Ifeel limited to what Ican learn/experiment with as far as the way the plane is setup.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

I dont believe it does , I know the Focus 2 doesnt

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Neither the 'Focus 2 or the Sport come with adjustable stabs. The directions tell you what incidence to set the stabs, engine and the wings. The wings are the only thing adjustable in the Focus line.

Larry

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Ha ha, actually that sounds like a huge improvement over expoxying the stab in whatever hole got cut out in China and hoping it's right! Iguess a lot of what happens to the plane is determined in the build. It would be nice to take an entire winter and work slowly and surely on setting up a good plane.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Joe,

On all the Focus planes, its really easy.  You set the stab to zero, then you adjust the wing.  On planes you really one need one or the other adjustable.  Adjusting both can be an advantage, but if you get them off it can be a headache chasing them.  On my old Mantis with a one piece wing it only had an adjustable stab.  Worked great.

Arch

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Arch beat me to it.

When you adjust one, you influence the others. Even on an ARF you should check (and correct if needed) the incidences/thrust anglesduring the assembly.

Terry in LP

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

One small correction Arch.  Instructions on the Focus II call for a -.25 degree stab.

RE: Pattern Plane Progression
 

Are there any other good planes for a YS 1.10 in the $400-$700 range?