I cannot dispute this statement
 

Reprint from ethernet.

The VF3 has been thoroughly tested and changed and comes from a long, extensive line of designs from Mike Hester. This plane has been tested through the FAI 2011 sequences and shows NO weaknesses. In fact, it does some things that have to be seen or experienced first hand.

Q: So where does the plane excel?

A: The VF3 presents extremely well. It's VERY large (by today's standards) and has an extremely unique drag profile. The plane is very well balanced in it's areas and force distribution. One thing to be aware of is that the fuselage side area is almost as much as the wing itself. The plane rolls like nothing else. Slow rolls are like cheating. With enough speed, no rudder correction is needed. Knife edge loops require no stick correction until the final quarter, and even then only if it's a very tight loop. Large Pattern style knife edge loops can be done with rudder and throttle only.

Integrated rolling manuevers in the FAI sequences were of primary concern. We wanted to design a plane that makes flying the figure M with integrated roll on center (bottom) as easy as could possibly be. (for example). We have definitely achieved this.

One other thing we worked hard on is the way the plane handles in the wind. Especially the bumpy turbulent kind. This was achieved by going with somewhat thicker flying surfaces and thicker trailing edges, coupled with a very clean overall design. Look around the world today and you'll see how many other designers are taking this direction. It works! in fact it handles wind possibly better than anything else currently available. Previously unheard of in a plane of this size. Does this mean it's a piece of cake to fly in the wind for a beginner? Not really, you still have to wind correct. but it does take some getting used to, because it takes so little. A little correction goes a LONG way.

The downlines are as slow as you want them to be. We have found ourselves having to ADD power in downlines. This is a great benefit as the plane doesn't wallow and leave itself to the mercy of the wind, but drives through and penetrates while giving the pilot plenty of time to work the manuever. Be advised though, if you are used to flying a small, fast plane, this takes some getting used to.

What this means is that now you can use an inexpensive 2 stroke and not have to worry as much about finding a prop to slow the plane. Let the plane do the work!

Snaps are extremely clean. Breaks and exits are almost a given.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Another one will be built. This one shall have anhedral stab. Snaps in F11 are very good. Rolling loop manevuers are very good. Aircraft is optimized at the 160 to 175 meter distances. Favorable for the sequences we now face.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Don,

Do you have any links to pictures? Is there be an electric version?


Thanks,

JP

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Sunny ... if only Mike makes ARFs ... I can't build ... everyone speaks highly of his planes.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Yes there is an Electric version... I'm building one now...

Cheers
Jason.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I'm flying one... :D

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I'm proud to say I'm flying one as well. I love the airplane.

This plane also like this years masters sequence. it flys it nicely.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I totally agree with Don,....I have two VF3's one w/a YS170 with the anhedrals (10lbs exactly) and one EP without the anhedrals (10lbs.13 oz with weight to shed). I may at this point have 40 flights between the two of them and the planes are just AWESOME! I prefer the anhedral stabs as the inverted stuff is even better and less down elevator is required for pushing and it turns corners better,..IMOP. The plane is just a very true flying plane with no negatives. I fly the FAI schedules aswell and currently I have no mixing in my planes,....they are both about 98% mix free and the 2% I don't worry about right now.

If you don't fly or practice alot like myself here lately,...the VF3 is like putting your favorite pair of shoes on,...it's just easy to fly. I am looking for VF3 number 3,...probably in the EP flavor.

I have made the statement several times now,.."this plane has no expiration date",..it can fly anything and do it easily! There are some really great new designs out,...the VF3 is at the top with all of them. The one roll rolling loop from the top is one that convinced me,..the "M" is easy.


Anyhow,...my two cents on the subject,....:D Don,..your welcome to fly mine with the anhedrals, if you haven't flow one with them yet?



Best Regards,

Bill Holsten

Advantage Hobby/Custom Airframes of America/Dragon Fire Customs/Guardian America.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

WARNING THIS IS A JOKE






I did see it, nice plane.
Wings completey integrated in the fuselage only the stab is is still mportant!
Let the plane do the work and forget the prop

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Hummm,.........???? That's just wrong...........:eek:



Bill Holsten

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I was afraid of that, a few years too early with my post.

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

It's all good Sir,....I have a sense of humor.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I did try to make you happy but be aware, this is the future when there are no limits on the ratio's of the dimensions of the fuselages.


Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

cees, we don't agree on a lot but on this one we do. well said.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Hmm let's see....this thread started off with an observation, went to praise, and ended (so far) with bad jokes about modern F3A designs....yep, this is RCU allright [8D]

Thanks Don, Chris, Bill, etc, you guys know I do what I can. This thread was a bit of a suprise. After flying with Don last weekend and playing with the -11 sequences, I feel really good about where we are going forward. I'm always quizzing people and making wierd observations that most people don't notice....and always trying to get answers to questions people never seem to have an answer for. THAT is an endless quest and a real joy for me. The trick to fast progress is never being so sure of yourself that you think you have THE answer. if you have a question, test it and get the answer. I still have more than a few myself. I don't see that ever changing.

What I DO see is how much the demands of these new FAI schedules are going to test a design's mettle. hence why we wrung out the VF3 in the 11 sequences a couple years back. That's one of the reasons for the anhedral stabs and a few other small mods.

It's also the reason a person who builds shrines to 40 year old designs thinks it looks like a blimp. *ahem*. Cees, can you do me a favor: post a video of your immaculate Taurus performing the P and F11 sequences? I'll wait.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................

If you make it through the M alone, I'll be shocked.

Still waiting........................................... .................................................. .................................................. ....................

Have you crashed it yet? No?

Ok, I'll wait some more.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................

I wouldn't fly a Fokker DR7 in a F3D pylon event either. I didn't post a picture of a pencil with wings to represent your Taurus, have a little respect for my day job, k? I got the joke. It just isn't remotely original or even all that funny to anyone who frequents this particular forum. This forum is for people who compete in MODERN pattern. As in, the 21st century. There is a reason planes look the way they do now. They must "fly" in a knife edge attitude. I don't like the porcupine look of some other designs to accomplish this, and I think the VF3 is a very pretty airplane. But I'm biased ;)

Anyway thanks guys.

-Mike

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Mike,

I did write:

WARNING THIS IS A JOKE.

The real story is, there is more reality in this joke than you think.

Because you write about my thread.

There is also much more reality in my thread than you think and the story is true any fact, any detail.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7950207/tm.htm

Give me some time because that Taurus, Oldest Taurus on Earth is the plane of your own first world champion Ed Kazmirski and really did exist, only you are forced to forget and that’s hard to learn.

Earlier or later also your planes will be forgotten when people do not take care of that.

Our hero was Anthony Fokker, and your DR7 never exist, the DVII did, but when you want to try to beat me with that, my DVIII is nearly finished. I am waiting for you.
Remember, It could be, I also know a little bit more about these turbulent bumpy windy conditions you write about. At least I use my own solutions for that I live in the Netherlands.

Cees

Picture of Taurus removed

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

From the web:

http://isp.webopedia.com/TERM/T/troll.html

troll


(v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.

(2) To surf the Internet.

(3) To hang around a chat room reading the posts instead of contributing to the chat.

(n.) One who performs any of the above actions.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I found a nice picture of an older design....now both sides of the equation have been balanced

Can we get back on subject and ignore posts that have no basis on the subject at hand?

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Your welcome Mike,........thanks for the great design! I have a month to work my *SS off to get back to level I was flying at earlier in the year. It's a matter of pride to finish the year strong at the last contest in Nov. and put up my best performance before I switch to the 11's. It was good to see you and Melissa.

Again,.....many thanks!!:D


Best Regards,

Bill Holsten

Advantage Hobby/Custom Airframes of America/Dragon Fire Customs/Guardian America.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Gents,

I was triggered by the statement because when you need power for the down lines you really have a (development) problem in bumpy turbulent wind and that was the first input to feed my imagination.

I did look for the VF3, on internet, I did not know that plane and find this text:

With the VF3, this same advantage has been created with the use of glow engines. Speed control is phenomenal, snaps are effortless and remove all doubt with little to no line displacement at all. Very slow rolls and knife edge flight at very low flight speeds require very little rudder to maintain level flight. The tail shows very little "digging". Up and down line snaps and rolls are very axial with no wobbling.

I show you the pitot tube I use on my Top Flite Taurus. This is needed for real (air)speed control and data logging.
Reason of this post is, to show you I am not trolling and maybe on one moment you will think about me when somebody beats you in bumpy turbulent wind conditions.
Do not worry for that in the near future, I think I am the only one who uses this
If you want a short description (without the details) let me know and I will tell you.

Nice plane VF3, not exactly my style, I prefer my Taurus
Picture 2 and 3 removed
success

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Oh my GOD....

Dude attention all VF3 owners....we're hallucinating!!! These Vf3s are jumping all over the place in turbulence and we're getting beat because of it!!!!

Cees, you don't wanna do this with me. Really.....you don't want this. Ask anyone who owns one or has even seen one fly what the BEST attribute of this plane is. Get ready for a big suprise.

I got the joke, it's just an old joke that has been done to death by the "classic" pattern guys. It was funny 8 years ago. Now, not so much, it's just tired.

Your last post proved to me (and countless others probably) that you have absolutely no clue what we're doing or why. I didn't ask you to post that video of YOU flying through the -11 F3A sequences to be a smart ***** (totally anyway). I posted it because if you DO fly that pattern, with that plane, if you have as much mental capacity as you seem to have in other areas, you'll instantly realize how wrong you are. You'll prove it beyond any doubt. Then we'll have a common frame of reference. As of now we're not even talking about the same thing.

-Mike

PS Did I read that right, did you actually challenge me to some sort of flying contest? Your English is good so not sometime. I don't really care much about 100 year old planes BTW.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Ahhhhh,.....Mike don't get cought up in the "RUBBISH" you can't convince a person that has never flown the VF3 of it's awesome performance. Those of us that choose and desire to fly them,...fly them for a very good reason,......PERFORMANCE,...PERFORMANCE,...PERFORM ANCE!!!!!!

Not my argument,..excuse me for interjecting on the subject if I may.[8D]

Cees:The measure of a planes abilities is NOT measured by a humpy bump,....heck an Avistar trainer will do them and well I might add, but it won't fly the P or F-11 worth beans. It's notiable to say there are some very good designs out there old and new I have not flown. I don't need too,....the VF3 does it all and does it with grace. The BM VF3 excells in wind,...by looking at the size of it you would not initially think so,....it does!!:D

The increased complex sequences has forced the development in pattern aircraft to evolve to bigger,taller and wider designs to make them fly on thier sides better and maintain a more constant pace,....the days of a mach 2 pattern design is long gone. Your imagination will not serve you well on the subject of the VF3,..you have to fly one to believe it,....if not,...the speculation and insinuation of an imaginary problem is a mut'e point.;)

I have no doubt your Taurus flies well,...don't think you will see the Taurus flown in the world Championships in 2011. It's completely unfair to attack a design,..designer and the very talented pilots that "DESIRE" to fly them with no substantiated experience with the plane to back it up.


The Netherlands is a beautiful country,.....one of my favorites!


Best Regards,

Bill Holsten
FAI/F3A-USA

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Sorry . . I am ignorant. How does this work ?? (within the rules . . )

If it is to electronically control the engine revs for constant flight speed . . how will it maintain this constant speed in a vertical down line with the throttle off ? Doesn't gravity, air density and airframe drag control the speed in this condition ??

Controlling the "appearance" of constant speed flying F3A is relatively easy . . we have a throttle stick :D. It's the manoeuvres that give us trouble ;). As for the constant speed on vertical down lines . . I believe it is really about motor and prop choices, AND induced drag designed into the airframe. Mike might be able to help you with the airframe design here ;)

I guess it's kind of similar to Formula 1 car racing. They change the rules, and engineers design new cars to operate as efficiently as possible within the new rules . . in F3A, they create new manoeuvres and pattern/aerobatic schedules. Often, a plane used competitively for schedules in "days gone by" will not fly some manoeuvres in the new schedules as well as it should, requiring modifications to the airframe. The latest appearance of F3A planes is a DIRECT result of airframe design meeting the requirements of these newer schedules, with increasingly complex manoeuvres involving integrated rolls in loops and circles, Knife edge snaps, etc., etc. . . none of which were flown (as far as I know) when the Taurus was competing. Hence . . the Taurus will NOT compete in F3A today ! . . not a chance . . even WITH a Pitot Tube. Sorry, Cees.



Cheers, JB

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Jeff
In my own tread and the Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus thread, I did spend some time in several posts about this subject. Also combined with contra rotating propellers.

But first read this, about the way I experience your way of communicating with me, it is like:

Anthony Fokker uses one of his gun synchronizing systems to shoot through the surface of the rotating propeller. He did mount it on an old fighter to research
Now he is chatting with the American pilots after a joke about a blimp, after he is forced to show them the system so they believe he knows something about airplanes and wasn’t “trolling”.
He is surprised by the way they react, because they telling everyone now, he did want to prove he could beat their modern SPADs and Camels with his (100 years?) old plane.
He says, “No gents, invitation ignored, if that was my goal, then I did not show you anything, did not argue about anything and only you would have meet one of my pilots above the battlefield!”
They also do offer him help of their designer to build a better plane!!


. . I believe it is really about motor and prop choices,

Yes Jeff, so you do not destroy them with your own gun when you hit them.


Also interesting to read post 70:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9117840

The picture:removed
Second picture removed

And Jeff, do you want to know these posts in the other threads, because answerring your question n this thread would be off topic?

Cheers
Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

OK... I give in. <div>This thread has gone lost itself in a kinda Magic Mushroom type haze.
</div><div>I'm TOTALLY lost dude.</div><div>
</div>