I cannot dispute this statement
 

Reprint from ethernet.

The VF3 has been thoroughly tested and changed and comes from a long, extensive line of designs from Mike Hester. This plane has been tested through the FAI 2011 sequences and shows NO weaknesses. In fact, it does some things that have to be seen or experienced first hand.

Q: So where does the plane excel?

A: The VF3 presents extremely well. It's VERY large (by today's standards) and has an extremely unique drag profile. The plane is very well balanced in it's areas and force distribution. One thing to be aware of is that the fuselage side area is almost as much as the wing itself. The plane rolls like nothing else. Slow rolls are like cheating. With enough speed, no rudder correction is needed. Knife edge loops require no stick correction until the final quarter, and even then only if it's a very tight loop. Large Pattern style knife edge loops can be done with rudder and throttle only.

Integrated rolling manuevers in the FAI sequences were of primary concern. We wanted to design a plane that makes flying the figure M with integrated roll on center (bottom) as easy as could possibly be. (for example). We have definitely achieved this.

One other thing we worked hard on is the way the plane handles in the wind. Especially the bumpy turbulent kind. This was achieved by going with somewhat thicker flying surfaces and thicker trailing edges, coupled with a very clean overall design. Look around the world today and you'll see how many other designers are taking this direction. It works! in fact it handles wind possibly better than anything else currently available. Previously unheard of in a plane of this size. Does this mean it's a piece of cake to fly in the wind for a beginner? Not really, you still have to wind correct. but it does take some getting used to, because it takes so little. A little correction goes a LONG way.

The downlines are as slow as you want them to be. We have found ourselves having to ADD power in downlines. This is a great benefit as the plane doesn't wallow and leave itself to the mercy of the wind, but drives through and penetrates while giving the pilot plenty of time to work the manuever. Be advised though, if you are used to flying a small, fast plane, this takes some getting used to.

What this means is that now you can use an inexpensive 2 stroke and not have to worry as much about finding a prop to slow the plane. Let the plane do the work!

Snaps are extremely clean. Breaks and exits are almost a given.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Another one will be built. This one shall have anhedral stab. Snaps in F11 are very good. Rolling loop manevuers are very good. Aircraft is optimized at the 160 to 175 meter distances. Favorable for the sequences we now face.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Don,

Do you have any links to pictures? Is there be an electric version?


Thanks,

JP

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Sunny ... if only Mike makes ARFs ... I can't build ... everyone speaks highly of his planes.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Yes there is an Electric version... I'm building one now...

Cheers
Jason.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I'm flying one... :D

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I'm proud to say I'm flying one as well. I love the airplane.

This plane also like this years masters sequence. it flys it nicely.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I totally agree with Don,....I have two VF3's one w/a YS170 with the anhedrals (10lbs exactly) and one EP without the anhedrals (10lbs.13 oz with weight to shed). I may at this point have 40 flights between the two of them and the planes are just AWESOME! I prefer the anhedral stabs as the inverted stuff is even better and less down elevator is required for pushing and it turns corners better,..IMOP. The plane is just a very true flying plane with no negatives. I fly the FAI schedules aswell and currently I have no mixing in my planes,....they are both about 98% mix free and the 2% I don't worry about right now.

If you don't fly or practice alot like myself here lately,...the VF3 is like putting your favorite pair of shoes on,...it's just easy to fly. I am looking for VF3 number 3,...probably in the EP flavor.

I have made the statement several times now,.."this plane has no expiration date",..it can fly anything and do it easily! There are some really great new designs out,...the VF3 is at the top with all of them. The one roll rolling loop from the top is one that convinced me,..the "M" is easy.


Anyhow,...my two cents on the subject,....:D Don,..your welcome to fly mine with the anhedrals, if you haven't flow one with them yet?



Best Regards,

Bill Holsten

Advantage Hobby/Custom Airframes of America/Dragon Fire Customs/Guardian America.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

WARNING THIS IS A JOKE






I did see it, nice plane.
Wings completey integrated in the fuselage only the stab is is still mportant!
Let the plane do the work and forget the prop

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Hummm,.........???? That's just wrong...........:eek:



Bill Holsten

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I was afraid of that, a few years too early with my post.

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

It's all good Sir,....I have a sense of humor.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I did try to make you happy but be aware, this is the future when there are no limits on the ratio's of the dimensions of the fuselages.


Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

cees, we don't agree on a lot but on this one we do. well said.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Hmm let's see....this thread started off with an observation, went to praise, and ended (so far) with bad jokes about modern F3A designs....yep, this is RCU allright [8D]

Thanks Don, Chris, Bill, etc, you guys know I do what I can. This thread was a bit of a suprise. After flying with Don last weekend and playing with the -11 sequences, I feel really good about where we are going forward. I'm always quizzing people and making wierd observations that most people don't notice....and always trying to get answers to questions people never seem to have an answer for. THAT is an endless quest and a real joy for me. The trick to fast progress is never being so sure of yourself that you think you have THE answer. if you have a question, test it and get the answer. I still have more than a few myself. I don't see that ever changing.

What I DO see is how much the demands of these new FAI schedules are going to test a design's mettle. hence why we wrung out the VF3 in the 11 sequences a couple years back. That's one of the reasons for the anhedral stabs and a few other small mods.

It's also the reason a person who builds shrines to 40 year old designs thinks it looks like a blimp. *ahem*. Cees, can you do me a favor: post a video of your immaculate Taurus performing the P and F11 sequences? I'll wait.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ....................

If you make it through the M alone, I'll be shocked.

Still waiting........................................... .................................................. .................................................. ....................

Have you crashed it yet? No?

Ok, I'll wait some more.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................

I wouldn't fly a Fokker DR7 in a F3D pylon event either. I didn't post a picture of a pencil with wings to represent your Taurus, have a little respect for my day job, k? I got the joke. It just isn't remotely original or even all that funny to anyone who frequents this particular forum. This forum is for people who compete in MODERN pattern. As in, the 21st century. There is a reason planes look the way they do now. They must "fly" in a knife edge attitude. I don't like the porcupine look of some other designs to accomplish this, and I think the VF3 is a very pretty airplane. But I'm biased ;)

Anyway thanks guys.

-Mike

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Mike,

I did write:

WARNING THIS IS A JOKE.

The real story is, there is more reality in this joke than you think.

Because you write about my thread.

There is also much more reality in my thread than you think and the story is true any fact, any detail.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7950207/tm.htm

Give me some time because that Taurus, Oldest Taurus on Earth is the plane of your own first world champion Ed Kazmirski and really did exist, only you are forced to forget and that’s hard to learn.

Earlier or later also your planes will be forgotten when people do not take care of that.

Our hero was Anthony Fokker, and your DR7 never exist, the DVII did, but when you want to try to beat me with that, my DVIII is nearly finished. I am waiting for you.
Remember, It could be, I also know a little bit more about these turbulent bumpy windy conditions you write about. At least I use my own solutions for that I live in the Netherlands.

Cees

Picture of Taurus removed

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

From the web:

http://isp.webopedia.com/TERM/T/troll.html

troll


(v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.

(2) To surf the Internet.

(3) To hang around a chat room reading the posts instead of contributing to the chat.

(n.) One who performs any of the above actions.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I found a nice picture of an older design....now both sides of the equation have been balanced

Can we get back on subject and ignore posts that have no basis on the subject at hand?

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Your welcome Mike,........thanks for the great design! I have a month to work my *SS off to get back to level I was flying at earlier in the year. It's a matter of pride to finish the year strong at the last contest in Nov. and put up my best performance before I switch to the 11's. It was good to see you and Melissa.

Again,.....many thanks!!:D


Best Regards,

Bill Holsten

Advantage Hobby/Custom Airframes of America/Dragon Fire Customs/Guardian America.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Gents,

I was triggered by the statement because when you need power for the down lines you really have a (development) problem in bumpy turbulent wind and that was the first input to feed my imagination.

I did look for the VF3, on internet, I did not know that plane and find this text:

With the VF3, this same advantage has been created with the use of glow engines. Speed control is phenomenal, snaps are effortless and remove all doubt with little to no line displacement at all. Very slow rolls and knife edge flight at very low flight speeds require very little rudder to maintain level flight. The tail shows very little "digging". Up and down line snaps and rolls are very axial with no wobbling.

I show you the pitot tube I use on my Top Flite Taurus. This is needed for real (air)speed control and data logging.
Reason of this post is, to show you I am not trolling and maybe on one moment you will think about me when somebody beats you in bumpy turbulent wind conditions.
Do not worry for that in the near future, I think I am the only one who uses this
If you want a short description (without the details) let me know and I will tell you.

Nice plane VF3, not exactly my style, I prefer my Taurus
Picture 2 and 3 removed
success

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Oh my GOD....

Dude attention all VF3 owners....we're hallucinating!!! These Vf3s are jumping all over the place in turbulence and we're getting beat because of it!!!!

Cees, you don't wanna do this with me. Really.....you don't want this. Ask anyone who owns one or has even seen one fly what the BEST attribute of this plane is. Get ready for a big suprise.

I got the joke, it's just an old joke that has been done to death by the "classic" pattern guys. It was funny 8 years ago. Now, not so much, it's just tired.

Your last post proved to me (and countless others probably) that you have absolutely no clue what we're doing or why. I didn't ask you to post that video of YOU flying through the -11 F3A sequences to be a smart ***** (totally anyway). I posted it because if you DO fly that pattern, with that plane, if you have as much mental capacity as you seem to have in other areas, you'll instantly realize how wrong you are. You'll prove it beyond any doubt. Then we'll have a common frame of reference. As of now we're not even talking about the same thing.

-Mike

PS Did I read that right, did you actually challenge me to some sort of flying contest? Your English is good so not sometime. I don't really care much about 100 year old planes BTW.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Ahhhhh,.....Mike don't get cought up in the "RUBBISH" you can't convince a person that has never flown the VF3 of it's awesome performance. Those of us that choose and desire to fly them,...fly them for a very good reason,......PERFORMANCE,...PERFORMANCE,...PERFORM ANCE!!!!!!

Not my argument,..excuse me for interjecting on the subject if I may.[8D]

Cees:The measure of a planes abilities is NOT measured by a humpy bump,....heck an Avistar trainer will do them and well I might add, but it won't fly the P or F-11 worth beans. It's notiable to say there are some very good designs out there old and new I have not flown. I don't need too,....the VF3 does it all and does it with grace. The BM VF3 excells in wind,...by looking at the size of it you would not initially think so,....it does!!:D

The increased complex sequences has forced the development in pattern aircraft to evolve to bigger,taller and wider designs to make them fly on thier sides better and maintain a more constant pace,....the days of a mach 2 pattern design is long gone. Your imagination will not serve you well on the subject of the VF3,..you have to fly one to believe it,....if not,...the speculation and insinuation of an imaginary problem is a mut'e point.;)

I have no doubt your Taurus flies well,...don't think you will see the Taurus flown in the world Championships in 2011. It's completely unfair to attack a design,..designer and the very talented pilots that "DESIRE" to fly them with no substantiated experience with the plane to back it up.


The Netherlands is a beautiful country,.....one of my favorites!


Best Regards,

Bill Holsten
FAI/F3A-USA

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Sorry . . I am ignorant. How does this work ?? (within the rules . . )

If it is to electronically control the engine revs for constant flight speed . . how will it maintain this constant speed in a vertical down line with the throttle off ? Doesn't gravity, air density and airframe drag control the speed in this condition ??

Controlling the "appearance" of constant speed flying F3A is relatively easy . . we have a throttle stick :D. It's the manoeuvres that give us trouble ;). As for the constant speed on vertical down lines . . I believe it is really about motor and prop choices, AND induced drag designed into the airframe. Mike might be able to help you with the airframe design here ;)

I guess it's kind of similar to Formula 1 car racing. They change the rules, and engineers design new cars to operate as efficiently as possible within the new rules . . in F3A, they create new manoeuvres and pattern/aerobatic schedules. Often, a plane used competitively for schedules in "days gone by" will not fly some manoeuvres in the new schedules as well as it should, requiring modifications to the airframe. The latest appearance of F3A planes is a DIRECT result of airframe design meeting the requirements of these newer schedules, with increasingly complex manoeuvres involving integrated rolls in loops and circles, Knife edge snaps, etc., etc. . . none of which were flown (as far as I know) when the Taurus was competing. Hence . . the Taurus will NOT compete in F3A today ! . . not a chance . . even WITH a Pitot Tube. Sorry, Cees.



Cheers, JB

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Jeff
In my own tread and the Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus thread, I did spend some time in several posts about this subject. Also combined with contra rotating propellers.

But first read this, about the way I experience your way of communicating with me, it is like:

Anthony Fokker uses one of his gun synchronizing systems to shoot through the surface of the rotating propeller. He did mount it on an old fighter to research
Now he is chatting with the American pilots after a joke about a blimp, after he is forced to show them the system so they believe he knows something about airplanes and wasn’t “trolling”.
He is surprised by the way they react, because they telling everyone now, he did want to prove he could beat their modern SPADs and Camels with his (100 years?) old plane.
He says, “No gents, invitation ignored, if that was my goal, then I did not show you anything, did not argue about anything and only you would have meet one of my pilots above the battlefield!”
They also do offer him help of their designer to build a better plane!!


. . I believe it is really about motor and prop choices,

Yes Jeff, so you do not destroy them with your own gun when you hit them.


Also interesting to read post 70:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9117840

The picture:removed
Second picture removed

And Jeff, do you want to know these posts in the other threads, because answerring your question n this thread would be off topic?

Cheers
Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

OK... I give in. <div>This thread has gone lost itself in a kinda Magic Mushroom type haze.
</div><div>I'm TOTALLY lost dude.</div><div>
</div>

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

David, looking at the hit list for this thread and the handful of replies from mostly the same people, I'd say most of the other trolls are right there with ya! :D

I think this started out as another BM love fest and seems to have kinda got lost in it's own juices :), I must admit tho, It's been great trolling this thread witnessing fellow modellers *****in like school yard hero's, keep it up guy's, this is really entertaining!

FWIW, I really like both the looks and the "homebrew" aspect of the BM series of airframes, the level of input from it's designer is to be respected. Having said that, sometimes it's better to not say anything than to try and shout the loudest, if you get what I mean.......................................

Better go get me some more popcorn during the interval.......BRB

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I was thinking straight up LSD, MK Ultra......lots and lots of sugar cubes...

The colors!!!!!!

Argueing this with Cees is like argueing about purple leprechauns. I'll pass.

I appreciate the compliments on the plane, but after the blimp, this thread took a turn for the bizarre.

-M

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Ahh yes, the obligatory "I'm so above all of this but I'll remark anyway so people can see just how MUCH better I am" post. Took long enough ;)

If you aren't the subject of hateful remarks, you aren't doing much. Welcome to the real world! I love my life. Nothing makes me happier than knowing how many people HATE me and everything I stand for. The close second would have to be the (always predictable) posts about how entertaining the carnage is, and how the poster is soooooo far above it all it's suprising he's not bumping his head on sattelites. *ahem*?

FWIW, I stopped trying to shout a long time ago. Right about the same time I stopped giving a flying f*** what my toy airplane "image" was. Hence why I rarely post nowadays. The questions have been answered, the jury is IN. Nada to prove. Nothing left but a lot of love from the owners, and a lot of hate from elsewhere. if you think I somehow orchestrate these type of posts (I've heard that before), you have no idea how wrong you are. I know how it's going to end before it ever begins.

I can't, and won't stop people from posting how much they like the plane. It's not the worst problem to have, now is it? I'll keep on saying thank you and keep on getting hateful remarks. And responding however I feel at the moment. If you have never been on the recieving end of this crap, don't even try to think you have any answers. I tried them all, they don't work. I just laugh and say what I want. I'm very happy it entertains the uber high class (obviously inherently "better") people of this world. And keeps the haters up at night thinking of new ways to come at me :D

After all, I am OBVIOUSLY such a threat to the established order of toy planes that it warrants this much attention. [8D]

Wait a minute....isn't it about time for some of the usual suspects to start up some anonymous slander under an assumed name? I'm guessing that's next.

Or perhaps Mr Neutral is due to come in with "stop this we don't want to read crap like this" as the view count rises despite his assertions.....

Or maybe the conspiracy nut makes an appearance....the guy who just SWEARS I somehow orchestrated all of this from the very beginning (I am busy remodeling my secret underground volcano lair, so no time for that right now).

Another day on RCU. Love, hate, jealousy, compliments, know-it-alls, and plenty of popcorn.

I love my job [8D]

-Mikey

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Mike,
There of course is no any doubt about the quality of your plane, we all know. I only was triggered by that first post,
For who is interested, I did make an description in my thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9164004

Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth.


Success Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

No it wouldn't be off topic . . the topic of this thread is "I cannot dispute this statement". You have just made a NEW statement . . although, possibly disputable :D . .

Cheers, JB

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

....weird ? This is weird :
Make me a promise Mike ! : ¨Carry on for ever......Never stop or doubt for smaller opinions than your own. Make us the best design of the world. Go on and on."
I envy you for your skill and quest .....

Eggert

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

I think some of you need to be mindful of Mike’s experiences with the Troy Newman saga…. He alluded to it in one of his replies. Perhaps then you will understand why Mike is so passionate about defending his product and company.

Regards
Jason.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Can I come to your Volcano when ur done remodeling?????



gary

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

There was this plane called the Taurus. It was ahead of its time. I can't disbute this statement. We are now full circle.

I once drove up to a flying field in Knoxville, TN. Do as the Romans do. SPA international event wrapping up. I pulled out my 42% Extra 300 and started to fly through the Senior Super pattern. One of the pilots said, hey, you should try pattern. I thought that was a great complement. I told him, I may try flying pattern some day. So he called the maneuvers and I flew through them without delay. I then landed the Extra plane and they let me fly one of the Taurus (or such) planes in the Super Senior class maneuvers. No mixes on the radios, just 4 channels. This pilot would shoot anyone who dared enter mixes. It would destroy the nastagia. All the aerodynamics were made for speed, and as much speed as one could muster. It was fun and challenging to fly, no different than P-11 from the "think forward and move stick" perspective. There has been progression in pattern designs. Next major milestone was Hanno with the tuned muffler. We entered the Jet age with ballistics. Look at the EU-1, now that as an F-4 down to the nose inlets. Then came and idea of turnaround. That changed everything with regard to speed, and designs soon followed. Tony Frakowiak's Challenge. Now we looked at speed control, although Dave Brown flew very constant in AMA style a that time. 4 Cycle engines were introduced to swing larger props at slower airspeeds. The next major step was rolling loop and circle maneuvers. The FOCUS would get through but the trend was toward constant speed and radius. Larger fuselages and other devices followed, tips, cantalizers, and the such. You see Seba and the props, electrics and many variations, in the theme for displaying the best picture to the judges. Now with the P-11 and F-11 moving things out a bit past 150, with greater speed and the VF3 looks and flies attractive. I stumbled across some claims on this website called custom airframes. I read through them to disbute but could not. It's been a great trip down memory lane. Many Cheers, Don

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Don,

We are back on the basic, I want to fly 50 miles every hour.
Constant speed is what I need to win, and for that I need the power.
The most important fact of the control loop is the gain
not to generate drag, but for exact speed to maintain.


Thanks,

Cees

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

a lot to consider there Don. nicely said.

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

You are always welcome in the underground volcano lair!!!!!

I'll plead guilty to being a little sensitive. I am still pretty raw from that "other" experience. I survived while a lot of others didn't. And still to this day certain people won't wear a dragon on thier shirt or even put CAA or even "Black Magic" on thier plane. Some have distanced themselves from me due to the carnage associated with that (that one is blatantly obvious isn't it? Hint: look around). Divide and conquer, and it's effective.

I can only apologize to the guys that have to get it because I won't just be quiet and take it. I learned long ago that if I did, I'd be gone. And I'm not going away. But it does get old.

Cees, I don't think was intentionally trolling me personally. I believe that he really believes what he writes. I also believe he's so caught up in his own "thing" that he doesn't fully understand that what we're doing isn't the same thing he's doing. Don outlined that pretty well. The prop is only a VERY small part of the equation. The fuselage area and shape, balance of all the areas to make the plane "fly" in KE attitude, are all critical. Turbulence was one of the very first factors I worked on before the VF3 ever flew. So argueing it would be pointless, it's a "problem" that doesn't exist.

The only part that got under my skin was I have been away (and under the weather a bit)...I come back, see where I have been complimented, and yet again someone has dragged the whole thing into neverland. before I can even say a simple "thank you". Again. Then come the guys who just love to see me in pain for thier entertainment. Same old same old. I get to feeling like a porcupine with all the knives sticking out of me. I learned to feed off of it a long time ago as a survival mechanism. It's 6:00 am and I'm eating chemo like candy, and I have to deal with this BS yet again. It's getting old.

I won't make that promise. I've been 2 seconds from just walking away many times before, and I won't promise that one day the BS won't outweigh the reward. I usually have no problem focusing all of the friends I have (LOTS thankfully,) and the good stuff. But some days the BS is so tiresome it's not worth it. You try it....you wake up and realize some of the people you considered your best friends now won't even associate themselves with you because they are so afraid of getting something splashed on them too. That leaves me in one hell of a spot. I can stay quiet and go under, and it's all over. Or I can defend myself when I feel it necessary, and incur the wrath of sadistic *******s the world over. You choose.

I'm going back to bed. Thanks again for the compliments and words of support, and the rest of the jerks can fry in hell.

-M

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Cees, I am just a bit curious about how your system works.
Surely you realise that "constant speed" in F3A is relative to the ground and not measured airspeed?
So aiming for 50 mph constant speed in a 20 mph wind, you want to fly 70 mph upwind and 30 mph downwind.
How is your pitot tube helping?

Magne

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Post removed, was "off topic"

Magne,

You can find your answer in my own thread,
I cannot make a direct link yet, search for post 624 on this page.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_79...25/key_/tm.htm


Taurus Flyer

RE: I cannot dispute this statement
 

Hey go ahead Mike, take a pop why don't ya, It's ok, I have broad shoulders!

Interesting you missed out my genuine compliments in your little spat, ata boy ;)

Ya see Mike, I'm in business too and the early lesson I learned was that ya can't make a negative any better by adding negativity to it, you have to take the negative and turn it around to positive. Just read my signature, you'll soon understand!

Oh, and one more thing, I gave my soapbox away many years ago, my feet are much better whilst placed firmly on the ground :eek: