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Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I am just learning pattern flying. I have used an Ultra Sport 60, but want to move up. The Venus II or Focus Sport are the size airplanes that I am looking for. The main problem is that I enjoy building almost as much as flying. I would like to use an OS120AX or the 4 cycle OS120. Both of these seem to work well in this size airplane. Truthfully, I can't afford a YS engine nor the 30% nitro to run it. I do want a kit though, not an ARF. Suggestions???
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I was looking at the CA Models Epsilon. It comes in a few sizes. I've never flown one, but seems like a good choice for a first kit (also comes as ARF and ARC):
http://www.camodel.com.ar/modelos/airplanes.htm |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
If you really like to build, you might consider Jim Hiller's Option 120. Really flies well on a 120AX. He cleaned my clock (and everyone else in Dist *) in Advanced pattern with it. There are at least 3 guys I know that have recently built or are building them now.
The last contact info I had on him is [email protected] I'll try to get him tonight and get better contact info like a phone number. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
The Epsilon is a great airplane.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I E-mailed Jim Hillar..He doesn't make kits, just plans are available. The Epsilon 90 looks great, but try as hard as I can, I can't find a price for it. It almost seems like they just offer the 40 and 120 size. The more I read, the more it looks like the VenusII ARF is about the best choice. People say that is better built and tougher than the FocusII etc. It amases me that today an ARF is cheaper than a comparable kit and you can't find the good stuff in kit form. The Epsilon might be an exception if I can ever find the price. I do like a 2 piece wing with a tube though.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
In these days there is more modern planes than Epsilon that are made for beginner in F3A, cheap 4-8s electric plane are quite popular in these days. I love my small Vanquish from Extreme Flight. Also SebArt fill this gap with older AngleS and new MisWind50 and new Wind are great options. Why you want to build kit? In my opinion ARF'S are much better way to start, when you calculate glues, film, and some extra material you need ( not mentioning time you need to build plane) price is about same as good ARF. Other thing is if you like building more than flying.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I've been flying a kit built Epsilon 90 with an OS .91 FX for a year and a half and I really like it.
I purchased the kit from netboxhobby.com. At the time their site showed the kit as out of stock but I called and he added it to his next order. I had it in about a month or two. So you might give them a call and see if they can get one for you. Dave |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I had the Venus II and I liked it a lot. I didn't get the Focus Sport because I thought the Venus looked cooler, and I guess because the VII is a bit easier of an assembly.
However the Focus is an actual pattern design - it is a shrunken down 2M airplane. The Venus, as much as we all like it, is a sport plane from Great Planes. Most of GP planes are 'overbuilt' and on the heavy side. The Venus is built like a tank, probably to handle the abuse that us newer pilots give to airplanes. I found the big 1-piece wing a pain to carry around and install/uninstall. If I could get over the 'looks' thing, I would have liked to try the Focus, it's just more of a professional model. There are some very detailed build threads on the Focus. All this being said, I do not regret starting with the VII and I'd still be flying it if I weren't looking to get into electric flight - it is a lot of fun to fly. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I've been looking at the very same thing and have found there really aren't many options available for kit-builders. I've considered copying the Venus II and building one from scratch, making a few changes along the way (two piece wing placed a bit higher on the fuse, symmetrical & removeable stab). This could allow someone to build their own yet still use readily available cowls and canopies...
If I could get my hands on a VII that's damaged or worn-out I would certainly try and build one myself... There are new planes being built by dreadnaut and alex vociu in this size range so I'm very interested in seeing how they perform when completed. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Will he kit that new airplane? With regard to the VenusII mods, I think the same way, but the Focus Sport is about the same size as the Venus II and it has the 2 piece wing and airfoil stab. I have heard that it is a fragile airplane. It does have foam wings which I guess are OK. The ARC is close in price to the Venus II, but they want $50.00 for shipping. That's a lot for shipping a 4 lb. box. You can't beat Tower for low prices, rebate coupons, and free shipping. I don't know what to do. I thought the new OS95AX might be a nice engine for a little smaller plane than these 2, but I found out that they sell for $10.00 more than the 120AX. What's with that? I do know that the 120AX is an awesome, powerfull, and vibration free powerplant. It doesn't need Hyde mounts or nose rings either. I guess it burns a lot of fuel, but the fuel is 10%.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I think the 120AX does pretty good on fuel and runs great on 10%.
I would say that if you're worried about a fragile airframe, go with the Venus. Let that tank take the abuse until you can smooth things out. There is a pretty big difference in design between a Venus and professionally designed pattern plane. I just got a SebArt plane and while it's similar in size (and color) the quality and design is totally different. The Focus is more like a modern pattern plane, the Venus is a sport plane with little dihedral, tall fuse, and a long tail moment. Shipping companies charge you for shipping large parcels. $50 is high in comparison to Tower, but low in comparison to what you or I would pay to ship it. Piedmont or Central sell much less volume than Tower so they don't get the shipping deals. Not their fault. Tower's deals are hard to beat, but after flying the Venus for a year I've moved to a point where their products don't have much interest to me anymore. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Good thoughts...Thanks Joe..I think that when I am ready I will get a Focus Sport and use an OS 120AX in it. Does that sound like a good idea to you?
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
In case you hadn't seen it, there is a thread called "focus sport build" by Troy Newman. He did a terrific job detailing the build process...
search the pattern forum and you'll find it. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
If it sounds good to you, then it sounds good to me;) You can not go wrong with either plane. The Venus served me very well and I would have really liked to fly the Focus. There are some cool build threads on the Focus (Troy Newman?) which show you how to set the plane up like a full blown 2M ship.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I'm really enjoying the Focus Sport with a YS 1.10, having lost my Venus II w/OS 1.20 FS-E (non-pumped) in a mid-air last June.
It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't "wallow" like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around. That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why. But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
ORIGINAL: cmoulder I'm really enjoying the Focus Sport with a YS 1.10, having lost my Venus II w/OS 1.20 FS-E (non-pumped) in a mid-air last June. It's not really a fair comparison because the OS had lots less giddy-up than the YS, but overall I'd have to give the advantage to the Focus Sport because it flies more crisply and precisely. Rolls stop quickly, snap rolls don't ''wallow'' like they did with the Venus II, and the Focus Sport tracks much better in tight-radius pulling and pushing maneuvers such as shark's tooth and square loops. On those same kinds of maneuvers, the Venus II would kind of mush a bit before the stab would come around. That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. When reading through Troy Newman's build thread I wondered why he seemed to put such heroic effort into assembling an ARF, and having done it I now know why. But if you hang in there and work your way through the issues, you will be rewarded with a very nice flying model. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
haha, sounds just like the kit building experience he was looking for! great to hear input from someone who flew (ie OWNED) both. focus looks more sporty in the air but that's a pretty objective statement, though you seem to be backing that thought. Well, I must have gotten over it (or maybe I'm a glutton for punishment) because soon I will be assembling a Focus II with the Syssa 30cc gasser and ES pipe.:D None of this is to say that the Venus II is by any means a crappy plane. Far from it; I had several hundred flights on it and learned many new skills such as slow rolls, clean stall turns, knife edge, and so forth... and it was very low maintenance, because of the robust design that you mentioned earlier. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I am used to building and I have pretty good results. I am sure I could correct the Focus Sport well, but I wouldn't be happy with the idea of paying for an ARF and getting a bad kit. I have read and saved Troy Newman's complete build thread. That is awesome and is the reason that I would consider the Focus Sport. I am very familiar with the linkage setup that he is talking about. I just set up my new SIG Somethin' Extra like that. You can see my new "Flight Streak" aka Sumpthin Extra on the kit forum under "another somethin' extra build. It really flies nice. I even tried to fly it with gloves on in our 14 degree temps today. I had to pull my right glove off though. God this weather is inhuman!!
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Well, when you look at full-bore 2-meter planes that cost $2000-$4000 for the bare airframe, $299 for a Focus Sport (plus some elbow grease) isn't quite so painful.:eek:
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
That said, the Venus II was MUCH easier to assemble because it had none of the quality-control problems the Focus Sport has. With the Focus Sport you had better know how to build, because there are lots of things - mostly small and annoying but some big problems, such as the crooked wing tube - that will require substantial building skills to correct. Crooked wing tube? Seriously????? Wow, now that sux! I wonder if you got a bad one or if this is a trend. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I don't know how many of them are like this, but if you search RCU/web I think you will find mine was not the only one.
I'll post a couple of pics - and my fix - later when I get back to my home computer. Definitely not for the beginner, the faint of heart or the easily deterred.[&o] |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I got two of the Focus Sports. I've not found any quality issues to deal with. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and they really fly like a 2 meter plane. Just not as visible due to the size.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
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ORIGINAL: burtona I got two of the Focus Sports. I've not found any quality issues to deal with. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and they really fly like a 2 meter plane. Just not as visible due to the size. When I got home, there was a big box containing a Focus II, so I hold no grudge against Piedmont! After this I will bow out because I have nothing else to contribute toward the topic at hand, but the pics show the wing tube thing, and the fix. Self-explanatory, I think. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Those pictures do tell the story. Production errors are common with ARFs. That is why I prefer to build my own from a kit. You and I would never let that happen in the first place. You can also pick through the wood supplied in a kit to make sure it is straight and the correct density for the intended purpose. A quick trip to the LHS and you can substitute at will.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
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My first AMA pattern experience is coming up next month in Miami. I asked some pattern guy's for advice, what to buy, etc. The Focus Sport was my choice. I followed Troy Newman's build. I am not an engineer like he is. Little TMI, (too much info), but I learned from him.
Again, at the advice of some pattern guy's, I installed the YS110S, Hyde mount. First YS and first 4 stroke, another learning experience. This plane and engine are not necessarily the only good package available, it fit for me. If all goes well, I will duplicate this for a back up. I build also, but the quality and price of this FS, I don't think it can be built at the $350.00 price, which includes shipping. The covering is excellent. Wing adjuster's, new experience also. Ready to maiden it as soon as it quit's raining down here. Pant's get on after first flight's. Vince Hobe Sound, FL |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Vince, you're in for a treat because it really is a great-flying model. But when the muffler breaks off after about 20 flights, you'll want to get one of [link=http://www.pspec.com/details.asp?ProdID=51&category=4]these[/link], model # 4SE51, with the 30-deg elbow. Not nearly as quiet as the YS, but a lot more durable.
Troy's nose ring set-up that is grafted into the cowl is also a good idea, however I can't speak to its durability yet as I've got only about 15 flights after that modification. I know that particular Hyde mount is touted as not requiring a nose ring, but the general consensus is that it does. Does funky things to the thrust line without it. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
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Bob - Thanks for the suggestion, and I may get what you advised asap, take a look in a minute. I purchased the Hatori Pipe, for tunnel, etc., then decided not to do it. They made that mod also. I talked to the guy's at Piedmont, they suggested the NR, with the Hyde mount. I saw a nose ring set up on I think, "Ed's Pattern Page", from SPA site. I did that, not exact, but close. I have taken some ribbing about it, but running with the cowl off, spool up, it seems to work, and a little bracing on the side's may be in order. Picture enclosed. I was concerned about the NR connected to the cowl, maybe too much flex at the cowl front?
Keep you posted on initial flight's, etc. Vince |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Now that truly is a nose ring Vince. Wow, good work. I will use an OS120AX on my FS if and when I get one. I don't think the 2 cycle engines, (and that 120AX is a very smooth one), need soft mounts or nose rings, at least I have never seen those things on any engines except 4 cycle ones. Would any of you guys use a Hyde mount and the nose ring if you were using an OS120AX??
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
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Now THAT is a nose ring![8D]
Yes, I am very dubious about the cowl-mounted ring and how long it will be before engine vibrations shred the cowl. Likely I will end up with something like yours, using CF tubes and 1/8" 5-ply beech. Same thoughts here concerning the Hatori... considering the weight/complexity/cost/necessity... just ain't there. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
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Couple more picture's. Ply cut for fit, then glassed with 2 oz. cloth. CF tube's, sink 440 female's in firewall, aluminum 632 females on front of tube's, then aluminum males to fit from outer NR. Picture also, side mounted glow lighter, sullivan has the best I can find. Very tight fit, clearance around glow plug, no problem. Keeps hands from under the cowl.
Vince |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Wow, even better!.... I thought it was all aluminum from the first pic.
I'm filing this away for future reference. Likely I will need it. I like the remote glow, but I didn't put one on because of weight and because I thought the vibrations would flex the wire to death in short order. It'll be interesting to hear from you if it holds up. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
The only 4 stroke engine I have is a Saito 100 and it is in my Waco SRE. It does vibrate some. Do those YS engines vibrate that much? It seems that every thread I read about them speaks to the incredible amount of vibration.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Bob - Where are you at with the CG ? I am using 3421SA's on the elevator half's, 9411SA's on aileron's, and a Hi-Tec big torque, (plane out in shop now), on the rudder, DS821 on throttle. Using an SR Nicad 2250 mah 6V, just for insurance for rx battery pack. Mounted right below Tettra tank, not dead on center but I can shift. My thinking a little nose down when balancing for maiden flight. Maynard, this YS does shake a little on idle, smoothing out increased RPM. I guess the Hyde mount will make it shake more.
I am still messing with it, have it down to around 2500 on idle right now, using 20% CP Pro-Pattern. Started with 30% heli, too much smoke. Vince |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Has anyone put a Focus Sport up with an OS120AX? They all can't have YS 110s, can they?
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
I just realized that my original thread is turning into a Focus Sport thread. That's OK, because it seems to be the best answer so far in a "smaller pattern plane", even though it is an ARF or an ARC. It won't be a cheap build for a guy that is used to sport planes with $25.00 entry level digital servos. If I can get by with an OS 120AX instead of the YS 110 or the new 115, I can save several hundred bucks, and run on cheap 10% fuel. I figure the best servo package, (that Troy Neuman shows on his awesome and lengthly build thread), will cost about $485.00. When all the parts are added up, I will bet that this plane requires about a $1,500 investment. If you use a YS 4 stroke, a Hyde mount, and a nose ring, the total will be closer to $2,000. So the solid mounted OS 120AX will save about $500.00. I just wish someone would try that combo and let us know how it works.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Maynard, you should be able to find that combo. When you pull up the ''discussion area", the box at the top left, let's you plug in your subject choice. Just put in, "OS 120 AX Focus Sport", or any other combo related to it. It should bring any RCU post's on the subject forward. Here is one, check out this guy, below, look him up on the search.
randy10926 Posts: 168 Score: 100 Joined: 10/31/2002 Last Login: 12/14/2009 From: Manassas, VA, USA Status: offline Anyone set a Focus Sport up for a single Elevator servo and/or an OS120AX yet? I just got my and opened the box. I plan on going with the OS120AX and single pitch servo route. Vince |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
ORIGINAL: crankpin Bob - Where are you at with the CG ? I am using 3421SA's on the elevator half's, 9411SA's on aileron's, and a Hi-Tec big torque, (plane out in shop now), on the rudder, DS821 on throttle. Using an SR Nicad 2250 mah 6V, just for insurance for rx battery pack. Mounted right below Tettra tank, not dead on center but I can shift. My thinking a little nose down when balancing for maiden flight. Maynard, this YS does shake a little on idle, smoothing out increased RPM. I guess the Hyde mount will make it shake more. I am still messing with it, have it down to around 2500 on idle right now, using 20% CP Pro-Pattern. Started with 30% heli, too much smoke. Vince I ran 2 gallons of 30% heli through mine, and now mix 30% heli (23% syn oil) with 10% Cool Power (18% syn oil) to end up with an almost perfect 20/20 blend. The engine really likes this, although I have read and heard that guys sometimes switch to 30% heli in hot, humid weather because it runs cooler. Idle, mid-range, top end and transition are all fantastic. Easy to see why the serious pattern gurus like them. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Thanks Vince..When I looked up Randy I guess he switched to an OS160 or something. Maybe I will have to be the pioneer. I will wait until at least next spring to get involved in the Focus Sport.
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RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
ORIGINAL: maynardrupp Thanks Vince..When I looked up Randy I guess he switched to an OS160 or something. Maybe I will have to be the pioneer. I will wait until at least next spring to get involved in the Focus Sport. To keep the fuel tank on CG (the only way to go, really) you would need a Perry, Cline or Iron Bay regulator. Very easy to tap the crankcase backplate for pressure. |
RE: Entry level smaller pattern kit.
Thanks for info Bob. Hope you guy's are doing OK with the snow, etc. We were deluged with rain here for day's. Looks like it headed north, turned to snow.
Vince |
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