electric pattern?
 

I mainly use an orbit-pro for the li polies, but I do have a triton (not extremely usefull since it only goes to 2.5 amps), a couple supernova's (nicad/nimh) and a schulze 636 (only .5A rate on lipos, so used for nicad/nimh).

electric pattern?
 

What is a setup like this going to cost?

And then how much for chargers and cyclers?

LiPo for F3A
 

Like a well-to-do cousin of mine once told me when I asked what his pair of brand new his-n-hers Mercedes sports cars cost, "if you have to ask, then you probably can't afford it!". :D

A TP 5S4P LiPo pack goes for $325 (2 of these used in the mentioned Rhapsody),
around $1300 USD for the Rhapsody airframe, $210 for Hacker controller, ~$310 for the Hacker motor, add radio, hardware, accessiories, Orbit charger for around $299...it does add up doesn't it?

Rick

electric pattern?
 

$750 for the battery pack of a single plane is getting a bit steep. I wonder how many people spend $750 on glow fuel in a season?......I wonder how many seasons a Lipo pack will last for?......I wonder how many pilots would feel comfortable competing with any less than two of them in their possession?

I believe the Y.S. 1.40 DZ cost about the same as the Hacker motor and controller. Most serious pattern pilots would want to have two of these in this their possession.....I would think.

I have an Orbit Pro now and I don't fly electric pattern. Although, I do fly NiCd and NiMh electric planes and the Orbit charges those batteries very well. I think of the charger as a support item for many planes.....radios....cordless tools and other toys. It will last for a very long time, so its cost can easily be justified in my mind.

The rest of the plane....airframe, servos and such is the same as its glow powered equivalent.

So, is flying electric powered pattern more costly than glow powered pattern? If you are comparing similar sized planes and you take into consideration fuel cost, I would say the electric is still (probably) more expensive......But then you gain electric power dependability, cleanliness and quietness. Are these attributes worth the extra expense? That's up to the individual. I thought those attributes were worth the extra expense on my sport planes. That's why for the past year I've been phasing out the glow powered planes in my hangar. I'm down to two planes and three engines. By the end of the season they'll all be gone.

Wiz

electric pattern?
 

thats for the individual to decide, depends on how much they fly. When I was "trying" to compete in F3C, I know my personal record of practice in a month was 62 gallons of fuel. 30% CP was running in the $25 to $27/gallon range at that time, so that was over $1500 in fuel that month. That's right at 500 flights which should be about 1/2 the usefull life of the lipo packs. Even if abused, they should go 500 flights, so that puts the cost down to about 1/2 what glow is, and as you stated, powerplant costs, airframe costs, yada yada, are the same, so it would be less expensive with electric. However, I think that example at the far "end of the curve" so to speak,.. not many fly that much in an entire year. Your question about how much people spend in glow fuel,... well,.. if you fly 10 flights per week (assuming 16 oz tank) with the CP30 or something similar,.. you burn that amount in a year (520 flights, i.e. 52 weeks in a year).
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Wiz
[B]$750 for the battery pack of a single plane is getting a bit steep. I wonder how many people spend $750 on glow fuel in a season?......I wonder how many seasons a Lipo pack will last for?......I wonder how many pilots would feel comfortable competing with any less than two of them in their possession?

electric pattern?
 

The advantages to electric power FAR outweight glow to me..

1) no mess. There is nothing to clean.

2) no vibration. Airframes can be built lighter and will not wear out.

3) perfect power. Assuming the power is available, the power is always there. No lean runs, no sucking a e-clip into the intake.. etc. Electronic components can burn out of course.. but the idea is very intriguing for sure.

4) quiet. I believe this is going to be more pressing of an issue in the next 5 years. Much moreso than people think.

I'm going to take the plunge and build an airplane specifically for F3A using E-power. It'll likely be an off the shelf design built as light as possible. With the LiPo's I basically need a 6.5 pound airplane minus power system. I think that's very doable.

electric pattern?
 

Just to agree with Doug and emphasize a point about no vibration.
Think about that term- "no vibration". How many of us have had to replace servo gears (or whole servos), output arms, clevises and fittings, engine mounts, and even entire airframes, due to just VIBRATION damage? This in itself, potentially saves hundreds of $$ in a year.

Add to that...the advantages of not having to fiddle with flameouts, needle valve settings, lean/rich runs, exotic/temperamental pipes, pinholes or other leaks in the fuel system, fuel pump/regulator tuning, toasted crankshaft bearings every 50-100 flights, burned out plugs, etc (the list is endless), certainly helps to mitigate the added cost of an electric installation. The power is THERE, INSTANT, and CONSISTENT.

E-power for pattern? Costly, yes. But it will certainly save money in the long run and pay many dividends in many areas.

Something to think about.

Rick

electric pattern?
 

Since there is no vibration couldn't the airframe be built even lighter?

And with all technology the longer you wait the lower the price becomes. After a few years these LiPo may come down to a price the rest of us can afford.

electric pattern?
 

Airframes can be built lighter for sure. Problem is they still need the stiffness. So long as you remember stiffness does not mean heavy, you'll be fine.

And yeah.. the LiPo's will come down.. and I think we're right before a MAJOR breakthrough in battery technology that's going to open the door in a hurry.

electric pattern?
 

Is this just a hunch, Doug or have you heard some rumblings from those in a position to know?

Wiz

electric pattern?
 

It's just a hunch really, but this is where the majority of research money is going right now.. Motors are understood things and power is just not an issue there.. it's the batteries to drive the motors that are the problem.

Just my opinion..

electric pattern?
 

Free market competition alone will drive down the cost of LiPo's. That's already happening to a degree as various vendors compete for our LiPo dollars. Of course, any new technology is improved on with time. In 2 or 3 years, it's not too far out to say we may well have LiPo technology with twice or 3x the present energy density, half the weight, and half the cost. Look at how far computers have come in just 5 years.

Advanced cutting-edge technology is just cool like that. :)

Rick

electric pattern?
 

For F3A, for electric power plants, does the weight of the plane to meet the 5 kg rule include the batteries (fuel)? I think that is the case, but does give some advantage to glow fuel planes that are weighed empty.

I do think the power from an electric motor could be superior to glow engines due to reduced vibration, low speed torque, quiet operation, no oil residue, consistency, low idle (zero if you want), no CG or weight change throughout the flight, and I am sure there are more. I would want to have sufficient power reserves available that I would not have to think about energy management during a flight.

electric pattern?
 

I have read that Jason Schulman's Rhapsody will come in just under the limit once some minor equipment changes are made. But that does pose an interesting question: What ought the FAI/AMA rules be about the max empty weight of IC planes vs. electric? Can an argument be made that the battery is a "fuel tank", or is it the fuel itself? I haven't looked at the FAI rules lately concerning it, but it might come to a head as more folks enter FAI classes with electrics and challenge the rules.
My own position (FWIW), is that IC powered craft should weigh within the 11 lb limit fully fueled, since the LiPo battery's weight doesn't change with "fuel load", and that would be a significant disadvantage to electric guys. Anyone know what FAI/AMA says in the rulebook about this now?

Rick

electric pattern?
 

This might mean that the big engine manufacturers like YS and OS will have to drop there prices???? What do you all think?

electric pattern?
 

Interesting perspective, particularly if you're very pro electric. However, another way to look at it is that electric has a big advantage, not needing the pipes, mufflers, shock mounts and such that IC engines need. And the electrics will be the same weight the entire flight, so it should be a more consistent model.

My take, the battery is the fuel tank. IC planes are weighed with the fuel tank in place, so should electrics. And the rulebook requires the battery to be in place when the aircraft is weighed. This came up when Dave VonLinsowe was doing his electric USA Star. This was in 1997, and BTW, an electric model was flown in that WC, I think by a pilot from the Netherlands. So nothing is new! Except the performance of the current set-up should be impressive.

Personally, I am very interested in this. Just the lack of vibration and wear on he servos is worth it for me, if the performance is adequate.

electric pattern?
 

I wouldn't hold my breath. Any "new" idea, like the idea of e-powered pattern, takes a while to catch on to the so-called masses, and sometimes it never does- unless it proves itself to be truly superior and viable vs. the "old way". Then it would take droves of people abandoning YS/OS/Webra's big engines to even make them take any notice. As long as they can still sell those engines based on continued demand, they won't budge on price.
E-power technology has room for improvement yet. I don't think it will make any significant inroads into traditional pattern events for a couple of years at least.
That is, unless we begin to see guys like Chip, Quique, CPLR, Jason, and their world-class compadres winning some very major events with them. Then all bets are off. I've observed that pattern people tend to follow the leader(s), equipment-wise.

Rick

electric pattern?
 

Of course, electric power systems aren't totally without their short commings. The big Hacker systems in these planes use gearboxes which will need maintainance I don't have any experience with Hacker but other brushless motors have been known to throw a magnet once in awhile. Shorts can happen and many of us who have been following Lipo use in planes know that there have been instances of Lipos actually catching fire.

I believe the fires were caused due to crashes.....but I'm not sharp on the details of those incidents.

Anyway, a clean, quiet, powerful electric airplane with good flight duration is no longer a pipedream and I look forward to getting my first Lipo powered ship very soon.

Wiz

electric pattern?
 

You will never throw a magnet in a Hacker. They are rated to from 60k-80k RPM based on the motor size. Now you can demagnitize the rotor, damage the motor or gearbox in a crash (ask me how I know) or feed them metal filings. The allure to me, with or without Lipos is instant power, no vibration, and no slime. I have yet to get some TP LiPo packs, but they are on their way. I do have smaller ETec packs for small planes and my chopper, but no serious packs yet.

All the slimers are gathering dust...

James

electric pattern?
 

Where can I purchase that Rhapsody here in the US for $1300

electric pattern?
 

I believe that in few years, the vast majority of planes up to say 2 meters, 11 lbs, will be electric (lipo or some newer technology). Anything bigger, petrol. If I had stock of any company that makes glow engines, I would be selling now... ;)

David

electric pattern?
 

Pizza...the figure I mentioned of $1300 was from the German website, using their figures, converted to USD. I doubt you can buy the Rhapsody anywhere in the US directly. If I'm mistaken, I'm sure someone will say so. :)

Rick

electric pattern?
 

does anyone know of a website where someone is diong daily updates from poland (world championship). I'ver heard through someone that worked quite hard getting the setups "tweaked" for Jason (prop/gear/cellcount) that he put in a flight yesterday in practice, after quite a lot of snickering and "prodding" from other competitors about the "rumour" he was flying electric. Apparently his flight put a immediate stop to all the ribbing he was recieving, and was followed by serious questioning about the setup :) I know they settled on 10 series, 3 parallel thunder power packs (6150mah capacity, 42V unloaded, about 35V under load at 68 amps) , but I'm not sure what prop. I know some quick calls to Fred at APC and there were several more electric series props in the works, some of which they recieved overnight a few days before he left. I think it's Amazing how APC stepped up to the plate and came through on short notice with "new" props. Anyway, just wanted to know if there was a website somewhere thats being updated.

electric pattern?
 

Gary,
Tony Stillman, Team Manager, said he would keep eveyone updtaed via the NSRCA maillist, and on his homepage at Radiosouth. You may find what you are looking for there in a few days.

electric pattern?
 

the hacker rotors are actually one piece of neodymium that's "energized" (for lack of a better word) with a special machine, thus forming a two pole magnet. Due to this construction, it's physically impossible to "sling" a magnet" because the "magnets" are essentially one piece around the shaft. that said,.. there is a max efficiency point (generally 40 to 42K range) where efficiency drops dramatically , so you want to stay at or below that point.