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Airplane Finish
This isn't necessarily in regards to pattern planes but you guys seem to have the best and lightest finishes out there.
Last year I followed Mike Hester's [link=http://www.customairframes.com/caaforum/showthread.php?t=93]technique[/link] to glass a small balsa cowl but now I want to do an entire plane. My question is do you guys feel this is any heavier than film covering or if done right it should be the same or at least very close? |
RE: Airplane Finish
If it done right it can be the same weight as covering. There are guys out there who have done wings lighter with glass and paint than monokote, so it is possible once you have mastered it.
Arch |
RE: Airplane Finish
It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome.
However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film. You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible. Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear. Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish. If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t. Bryan |
RE: Airplane Finish
Bryan,
Granted, people can't put your finish on a plane for the same weight, but you can't do that with Monokote either. There are guys though that are building wings as light as if not lighter than Monokote with paint. Mike Wingo has done it multiple times. His fuses are also comparable to the all monokote prototype fuse that Mike built and was 100% monokote. While not easy, and I certainly couldn't do it, but there are people who can put a nice reasonable finish on a plane at roughly the same weight. Arch |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: flyncajun It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome. However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film. You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible. Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear. Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish. If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t. Bryan monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd. |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: dhal22 ORIGINAL: flyncajun It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome. However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film. You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible. Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear. Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish. If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t. Bryan monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd. I am not sure what your point is with your statement. You are saying that one can buy very light glass cloth, which is true....are you also implying that one can finish a surface lighter than monokote using this glass? The key problem with glass is lay down and weave fill to eliminate telegraphing of the weave. It takes thickness to do that. That's what Bryan is alluding to. Thickness =weight and in the end the weight per square yard of a glassed surface to Bryan's standard, finished, is a heavier surface. The other thing about glass cloth is that over time, the dope, epoxy or other material used to apply it, will shrink just enough and the weave will telegraph through. Many don't care about that but I think Bryan does. His finishes are that impeccable Silkspan and dope technique is lighter than monokote. Carbon veil and dope even lighter and much stiffer. But both of these techniques require lots of experience (read that many errors along the way) to make it come out properly. Silkspan has no weave to fill per se and makes for a great surface to paint. Carbon veil on the other hand is wide open and needs filling but is also very thin. Thin = light BUT, very thin is not ding resistant. It doesn't much matter how you get thin, (glass, carbon, silkspan, Jap tissue) it won't be ding resistant. If that kind of resistance is what one is after, then the best bet is monokote. Personally I abhor plastic films on pattern planes. Love plastic film on my grandson's trainer MattK |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: Cdallas2 This isn't necessarily in regards to pattern planes but you guys seem to have the best and lightest finishes out there. Last year I followed Mike Hester's [link=http://www.customairframes.com/caaforum/showthread.php?t=93]technique[/link] to glass a small balsa cowl but now I want to do an entire plane. My question is do you guys feel this is any heavier than film covering or if done right it should be the same or at least very close? I think if take a fairly simple scheme that doesnt require a lot of colors laid over other colors and lots of fading and such and are really judicious with it, it can be done. Arch |
RE: Airplane Finish
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Thanks for the advice so far but I think it's time to add some more info.
I'm building a Balsa USA Northstar. If you are not familiar it's a delta wing seaplane that is notoriously tail heavy. The recommended finishing job is to fiberglass the bottom of the hull then cover with either Ultracote or Fabric & paint. My thought was to cut lightening holes in the wing ribs, sheet with contest balsa then fiberglass & paint the entire plane. After playing around with fiberglass paint on the previous plane I'd like to try it on an entire plane and figured this might be the right time as it will seal the airframe as well as give a nice finish. Most of the people who have done this say it will make it come out really heavy but on the other hand I don't know there skill level with glass so it could just be that it was done improperly. |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: flyncajun Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear. |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: rcpattern ORIGINAL: Cdallas2 This isn't necessarily in regards to pattern planes but you guys seem to have the best and lightest finishes out there. Last year I followed Mike Hester's [link=http://www.customairframes.com/caaforum/showthread.php?t=93]technique[/link] to glass a small balsa cowl but now I want to do an entire plane. My question is do you guys feel this is any heavier than film covering or if done right it should be the same or at least very close? Arch I have not done it .... not yet anyway! I am not as certain that the baloon will conform to every concavity. Bagging the covering onto a wing is straight forward if you are using epoxy. Not as straight forward if you are using dope, which is my personal favorite method for covering wings. MattK |
RE: Airplane Finish
How thick is iron on covering?
The thickness of a coat or two of applied paint, enough paint or thickness to "cover?" Anything after that seems to be added weight. Correct? Not that there's anything wrong with that. I've done glass and iron on. I like glass better, added weight or not. Charles |
RE: Airplane Finish
i too abhor plastic coverings. i build strictly for the fun of it. i'm in no hurry and paint everything i build.
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RE: Airplane Finish
David,
Ever use Klasscoat? (sp.) It's epoxy base. I'm told it's great, but would like to know more about the product. Charles |
RE: Airplane Finish
charles,
that's next for me. i've done latex and Nelson paint. latex for sport or warbirds is fine, no support for the nelson paint and not enough gloss. so that leaves klasskote. there's a couple of guys on the classic pattern forum using KK. |
RE: Airplane Finish
so that leaves klasskote You will not get the same kind of gloss that PPG paints provide, but it's better looking than film covering, and it's durable. I'm told that over the years, the finish can start to look a little chalky if not clear coated. I assume that could be rubbed out though. |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2 I'm told that over the years, the finish can start to look a little chalky if not clear coated. I assume that could be rubbed out though. |
RE: Airplane Finish
The secret to preventing chalk-key-ness is to wax it when its young. |
RE: Airplane Finish
Arch,don`t take this the wrong way but,
don`t believe everything you read:) no one can do it (glass over wood finish equal weight to film) The question was whether Mike`s system could be done lighter than monocoat ,you said it could Neither Mike`s, nor my System can be done lighter than Monocoat. with ANY quality. Molding an airplane skin finish, then painting the surface. is not the same thing, totaly different system not even the same league , molds have to be used. Paint is the least weight involved in a painted wing or fuse once the surface has been prepaired. On a 950 square wing monocoat weighs 30 grams total If you use .5 cloth it s 15 grams then ,it takes minimum of 20 grams of epoxie per wing( and it takes lots of experiance to learn to use that little ) thats 35 grams, and then you you have to prime and paint. thats another 2 onces if your good,all conservative numbers. The lighter the cloth the more filler it takes to fill the weave so No it`s not possible anyone who says it is, has never painted or never weighed the process in stages to compare. The only way to get a light or equal weight finish is with dope and silk and that takes years of practice to do it right with a decent finish. Then you have a finish not as strong as film. Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe. then you can have a light, painted airframe. But that was not the question. Bryan |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: flyncajun Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe. then you can have a light, painted airframe. But that was not the question. Bryan Thanks for all the advice. |
RE: Airplane Finish
Bryan
I thought I had your email address but I can't find it. Please send it to me Thanks Matt |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2 The secret to preventing chalk-key-ness is to wax it when its young. Klass Kote seems to gas off fairly quickly, days instead of the weeks it takes - lacquer - dope to gas off. Disclosure: I do not consider myself an expert painter. 7 foot finish and I'm fine. To me the trick is to have a 7 foot - light - finish when the airplane is a couple season's old. |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2 so that leaves klasskote You will not get the same kind of gloss that PPG paints provide, but it's better looking than film covering, and it's durable. I'm told that over the years, the finish can start to look a little chalky if not clear coated. I assume that could be rubbed out though. I have not used KK clear over KK base. I think the amines in part 2 make it photosensitive and it will yellow over time. Matt |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: MTK I have not used KK clear over KK base. I think the amines in part 2 make it photosensitive and it will yellow over time. Matt I encourage anybody with the desire to learn how to paint, to try KK. If your unsure of your abilities, try something easy, like control surfaces or a whole fuselage. Monokote/Ultracote colors are available. I have no interest in KK, I'm just a big time fan of their product. |
RE: Airplane Finish
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Automotive products, Dupont, Spies Hecker, and RM with a two stage clear coat, Dupont, is where most of my choices have been for paint. I've also used K&B Epoxy and Dope plus some of the aerosol can stuff sold in HS for models. That stuff can work great!
Picking the right colors and just "dusting" enough to cover, can save weight. As I said, I couldn't care less about weight. I'll glass and paint or use silk and dope on most of my models. However, I have a 27% Staudacher that I'm tempted to cover with iron on to save the weight. Only because of the way you would fly this particular model. Crazy, but guys are flying them, in a way real airplanes don't fly. Times change. I've posted this photo many times of a model I scratched and finished many years ago. This model is glassed and finished with auto primer and paint. Dupont clear. Lettering and other detailing was done by brush and airbrush. All tight edges, no airbrush freehand. Charles |
RE: Airplane Finish
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this plane is covered in .75 oz cloth, minwax polycrylic and nelson paint. it is awaiting clearcoat but weight testing shows it ending up about 7.5 lbs or slightly more. perfect for a classic pattern plane.
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RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: flyncajun Arch,don`t take this the wrong way but, don`t believe everything you read:) no one can do it (glass over wood finish equal weight to film) The question was whether Mike`s system could be done lighter than monocoat ,you said it could Neither Mike`s, nor my System can be done lighter than Monocoat. with ANY quality. Molding an airplane skin finish, then painting the surface. is not the same thing, totaly different system not even the same league , molds have to be used. Paint is the least weight involved in a painted wing or fuse once the surface has been prepaired. On a 950 square wing monocoat weighs 30 grams total If you use .5 cloth it s 15 grams then ,it takes minimum of 20 grams of epoxie per wing( and it takes lots of experiance to learn to use that little ) thats 35 grams, and then you you have to prime and paint. thats another 2 onces if your good,all conservative numbers. The lighter the cloth the more filler it takes to fill the weave so No it`s not possible anyone who says it is, has never painted or never weighed the process in stages to compare. The only way to get a light or equal weight finish is with dope and silk and that takes years of practice to do it right with a decent finish. Then you have a finish not as strong as film. Now if you have the experiance to plan the build you can compensate for the weight gain of a glass finish and reduce the weight of the airframe. then you can have a light, painted airframe. But that was not the question. Bryan Bryan, I wasn't reading anything from Wingo. I have physically seen the wings on scales. We have IDENTICAL setups, servos and everything else, and his wings are actually slightly lighter than mine with Monokote, and my wings are 13.5oz ready to fly. Since my fuse and his are glassed, that is a wash. Arch |
RE: Airplane Finish
Arch, who did the Monokote job on your BM on the cover of K-Factor a couple of months ago?
Looks excellent, congrats to whomever! |
RE: Airplane Finish
Bob,
Honestly have to give credit to my wife for that one. Yes, my wife, however she was a girlfriend at the time, but I'm sure you can see why I married her. She was in the shop with me when i started and she said that looks like fun. I showed her how to do it and off she went. That plane has set in the sun all over the country, including Texas and have NEVER developed a wrinkle. She even managed to make herself a Monokote phone cover for her cell phone. Rusty Dose interviewed her about her phone cover at the NATS in 2007, it was quite funny. Arch |
RE: Airplane Finish
Ha! You married well, Arch!
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RE: Airplane Finish
ok :D
bryan |
RE: Airplane Finish
Some of the lightest,most beautiful and durable finishes on the planet are found on control line precision aerobatic models. I think Windy Urtnowski, Brodak, and others offer videos and literature as well as finishing products.
jess |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: dhal22 ORIGINAL: flyncajun It`s not possible to finish with glass and paint as light or lighter than film covering ,just cant be done with a quality outcome. However, if the build is properly planed you can get a light finish only,By building lighter and taking advantage of the glass strength you can achieve maybe 40 grams increase on wings and 100 grams on the fuse over film.There is about a 10 0z difference on a pattern size plane total ,glass paint/vs plastic film. You have to remember it takes Years of mastery to properly plan, and build for durability , quality ,with a light airframe outcome to make it possible. Just putting the glass on a wing is the same weight as film,now you have primer,panit and possibly clear. Using Dope, Tissue ,silk span ect. is light, might be doable by the pro`s like Matt k. and maybe Dean Pappas, but it`s not very durable, you have to also be a master at taking care of it as well.Then, You have to be very carfull to make a season without the need for a refurbish. If your not trying to meet a weight goal use Mike`s technique it`s good!. but if you are trying to save weight,, you won`t. Bryan monocote is 1.75 - 2.25 oz per sq yd i think. glass can be bought as light as .50 oz per sq yd. |
RE: Airplane Finish
resin, or polycrylic.
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RE: Airplane Finish
i have just read all these posts and feel i have to reply with my 2C. Glassing and painting is at least double the weight of monokote if you put either of these on the same structure. For example if your finished structure is a given weight, then monokoting will give x weight-glassing and painting will give 2x weight. I have been doing this for over 30 years. I have done both. I have tried all kinds of paint and coverings. the only way to have finished structures the same weight with glassand paint vs monokote is to change the structure which is what Bryan and I do. Bryan and I cuss and discuss this stuff all the time. He says I thought him to paint but he is better than I, so whatever. I much prefer paint if it is doable. I just enjoy the plane so much more.
mike Harrison |
RE: Airplane Finish
back on page 13 of my classic pattern plane build is a .50 glass and polycrylic covered wing sitting on scales weighing 27 or so ounces.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6819340/tm.htm primer and nelson hobbies paint has increased the wing weight by about 3 oz. i'm sure clear coat will add a couple more ounces. so based upon the experience of far better builders than me monocoting the wing would have added 2-3 oz vs 5-6 ozs? 2-3 extra ounces seems acceptable to me. and no seams! |
RE: Airplane Finish
I'm in the process of glassing and painting my first pattern plane. I purchased a video from Don Ramsey on the proper techniques on glassing and painting a pattern wing. It is a great source of info. In that video he weights the wing panels at each stage of the process. At the end of the process he increased the wing panels by about 33%. In my case, I just finished glassing the entire plane. I increased the weight of each component so far by 20% or so. Don increased his by a little less than 20% after the glassing stage. Since this is my first time I feel like I'm in the right ball park. I estimate I will increase the weight of my plane by less than 35%. If you choose to glass and paint I would bet you will increase your plane by 35% also. Hope this helps.
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RE: Airplane Finish
Hi Ron,
Don is using the methods I taught him in that video, with a few tweaks of his own added. those #`s can be reduced with better prep. But now you can see the effort it takes to prevent a modest gain in weight |
RE: Airplane Finish
Bryan,
You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric. John Pavlick Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs |
RE: Airplane Finish
ORIGINAL: jrpav1 Bryan, You may remember my Black Magic V2 from the NATs a few years ago (the red and white one). That plane has silkspan + Nitrate Dope and Nelson paint on the fuse but Monokote on the wings and stab's. I know that if I could Monokote as well as Bob Noll THAT's the method I'd use for all of my planes. I think it's the best tradeoff as far as appearnace / weight goes. I was thinking of completely painting my VF-3's but instead of using 'glass like most people do I was going to use the silkspan method on the wings and stab's too. I don't think this will be much of a problem as far as strength is concerned since they're probably going to be electric. John Pavlick Team Black Magic, Tech-Aero Designs |
RE: Airplane Finish
Yes John I remember that beautiful airplane ,
I voted for it :D Outstanding finish and workmanship! a really nice looking airplane with a mirror finish. I`m sure Bob Noll wishes he could paint like that LOL Monocoat is a great product, it takes lots of abuse and is very light it`s hard to beat. Raiko Potter is a Master at using that Stuff. and gets very good results from his efforts.after two or three seasons ,his airplanes still look new. Arch`s wife is also fast becoming a master. Silkspan is also good but fragile, after 500 practice flights or one season ,, if your not carefull ,it you could really have a beat up airplane. Bryan |
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