Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
10-20-2003, 04:06 AM
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Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
I am trying to set up a free mix on an EVO12. With not much luck, what I want to do is slave the aileron and elevator to the rudder to dial out roll and tuck in Knife edge flight. Could some one please point me in the right direction. I have used Futaba before where you set a master and slave but in the Multiplex Mix Define it seems that you set different controls to move one servo. I am getting more and more frustrated and need some help before the Tranny gets launched across the room.
Thanks in advance Steve
Thanks in advance Steve
10-20-2003, 04:44 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Don't worry Steve, we can help you. For a huge amount of background info about the mixing concept in all Multiplex radios compared to the Japanese master-slave concept, take a look at the radios forum on rcgroups.com where there is a current and massive thread about converting from Japanese to the Royal Evo.
As you are finding, Multiplex uses a totally different concept for mixing, it always has. It is much superior to the Japanese method and much easier too. The only problem is that it is different and if you are used to the Japanese method you try and bring that with you into Mpx and it just causes endless confusion. You must unlearn the bad ways of the Japanese radios!
Japanese radios hard wire a control to a channel. So for example there is an elevator channel, an aileron channel and so on. Therefore in order to mix you have a master and a slave channel. In Mpx the channels are free, they are not hard wired to a control so the concept of master and slave simply doesn’t exist. You look at a servo and say, “what controls do I want to influence this servo?†Let’s take one example, there is a surface on the t/e of the wing which you want to take commands from the aileron control stick, and at times from the rudder stick. Initially the servo might be assigned direct to the aileron control so that is all it responds to. In order to let it take commands from more than one control you unplug it from the aileron control stick and plug it into the output of a mixer box. On the mixer’s input side, you plug in the aileron and rudder controls, then in the mixer box you set the travels for each input. Note that although you think it is primarily an aileron servo and therefore an aileron channel, the radio does not bother about this. It treats all inputs into the mixer equally, the aileron control has no mastery over the mixer or the output channel.
Step 1 is to define the mixer – this stage sets the input controls and the curves that they have. You do this in tools, mixer def. Maybe you can use the aileron+ mixer that exists already if it has rudder as an input with a non-symmetrical curve. If not, define your own mixer. It needs aileron and rudder as inputs. Now that the mixer exists, go to servos menu and assign the aileron servo(s) to that mixer. They may already be assigned to the aileron+ mixer. Finally, go to the mixers menu which shows only the mixers that the servos in this model are using. Choose that mixer and set the travel values for each control to have over the servo, such as 100% for aileron, and 10% for rudder.
Same for the ele servo. Check if the elevator+ mixer has rudder as one of its inputs. If not, define your own with ele and rudd as inputs, rudd at least must be non-symmetrical. Go to servos menu and assign the ele servos to that mixer, then go to mixers menu and set the travel values for each input, again this might be 100% for the ele control and perhaps 10% for the rudder.
Once these mixers are defined, they will be available to every model in future so you don't have to keep creating the knife edge mix in every new model, just assign the servos to the mixer and tweak the mix values in each model memory.
Harry
As you are finding, Multiplex uses a totally different concept for mixing, it always has. It is much superior to the Japanese method and much easier too. The only problem is that it is different and if you are used to the Japanese method you try and bring that with you into Mpx and it just causes endless confusion. You must unlearn the bad ways of the Japanese radios!
Japanese radios hard wire a control to a channel. So for example there is an elevator channel, an aileron channel and so on. Therefore in order to mix you have a master and a slave channel. In Mpx the channels are free, they are not hard wired to a control so the concept of master and slave simply doesn’t exist. You look at a servo and say, “what controls do I want to influence this servo?†Let’s take one example, there is a surface on the t/e of the wing which you want to take commands from the aileron control stick, and at times from the rudder stick. Initially the servo might be assigned direct to the aileron control so that is all it responds to. In order to let it take commands from more than one control you unplug it from the aileron control stick and plug it into the output of a mixer box. On the mixer’s input side, you plug in the aileron and rudder controls, then in the mixer box you set the travels for each input. Note that although you think it is primarily an aileron servo and therefore an aileron channel, the radio does not bother about this. It treats all inputs into the mixer equally, the aileron control has no mastery over the mixer or the output channel.
Step 1 is to define the mixer – this stage sets the input controls and the curves that they have. You do this in tools, mixer def. Maybe you can use the aileron+ mixer that exists already if it has rudder as an input with a non-symmetrical curve. If not, define your own mixer. It needs aileron and rudder as inputs. Now that the mixer exists, go to servos menu and assign the aileron servo(s) to that mixer. They may already be assigned to the aileron+ mixer. Finally, go to the mixers menu which shows only the mixers that the servos in this model are using. Choose that mixer and set the travel values for each control to have over the servo, such as 100% for aileron, and 10% for rudder.
Same for the ele servo. Check if the elevator+ mixer has rudder as one of its inputs. If not, define your own with ele and rudd as inputs, rudd at least must be non-symmetrical. Go to servos menu and assign the ele servos to that mixer, then go to mixers menu and set the travel values for each input, again this might be 100% for the ele control and perhaps 10% for the rudder.
Once these mixers are defined, they will be available to every model in future so you don't have to keep creating the knife edge mix in every new model, just assign the servos to the mixer and tweak the mix values in each model memory.
Harry
10-20-2003, 06:02 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Harry
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am at work now but will read and digest your reply when I get home tonight.
I Sort of understand but in practise I have a lot to learn. The model is a 93" Giles 202 with a BME105 engine. The controls that I have at the moment are:
4 Aileron servos 2 on each wing that have been matched together with a Hitec Programer then in to 2 independent channels.
2 Elevator servos on independent chanels
1 Aileron+
2 Aileron+
3 Elevator+
4 Elevator+
5 Rudder
6 Throttle
7 Choke
8 Ignition
I use the Aileron+ For Differential and elevator+ to get the 2 elevator servos dialed together. This all works fine.
I defined a mix Rud-E-A which has rudder, elevator, aileron I then went to the servo asign window and at first put the mix on channel 9 1 then went to the moniter window and found that the rudder moved with both elevator and aileron but if I moved the rudder only the rudder was afected. So I thought I would move the mix to the rudder channel witch had the same results. I then spent the next 5 hours looking at the manual and playing with different mix settings all to no availe.
Any further thoughts on where I am going wrong?
Thanks Steve
Thanks for the prompt reply. I am at work now but will read and digest your reply when I get home tonight.
I Sort of understand but in practise I have a lot to learn. The model is a 93" Giles 202 with a BME105 engine. The controls that I have at the moment are:
4 Aileron servos 2 on each wing that have been matched together with a Hitec Programer then in to 2 independent channels.
2 Elevator servos on independent chanels
1 Aileron+
2 Aileron+
3 Elevator+
4 Elevator+
5 Rudder
6 Throttle
7 Choke
8 Ignition
I use the Aileron+ For Differential and elevator+ to get the 2 elevator servos dialed together. This all works fine.
I defined a mix Rud-E-A which has rudder, elevator, aileron I then went to the servo asign window and at first put the mix on channel 9 1 then went to the moniter window and found that the rudder moved with both elevator and aileron but if I moved the rudder only the rudder was afected. So I thought I would move the mix to the rudder channel witch had the same results. I then spent the next 5 hours looking at the manual and playing with different mix settings all to no availe.
Any further thoughts on where I am going wrong?
Thanks Steve
10-20-2003, 07:11 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
The principle is that controls go into a mixer, to a servo(s). Look at a surface and decide what control you want to affect that surface. In this case you want the aileron surfaces to be controlled by the aileron stick and by the rudder stick.
Define a mixer that has aileron and rudder as inputs. The order of input doesn’t matter since Mpx does not recognise an aileron channel, the channel is a free agent and is very egalitarian, it treats all inputs equally. In fact you don’t even need aileron as an input, the mixer and the channel won’t complain though of course your aileron servo would not respond to the aileron control!
Think more deeply about how the aileron surface should respond. You want it to respond to the aileron stick, to the aileron trim, to the rudder stick but not to the rudder trim. You probably want the aileron surface to move equally up and down i.e symmetrically to the aileron control since differential is handled by a separate ail diff function. You will want it to move different amounts to left and right rudder since the roll may not be the same either way so that wants a non-symmetrical curve, and also you don’t want rudder trim affecting the mix so you assign the control “Rudder –Tr†rather than “Rudderâ€. Choose each control to have an affect all the time, or to be assigned to a switch. So that’s basically how to define a mixer: what controls will go to this surface?; trim or no trim?; type of curve?; switch.
Then assign servos to it. All servos attached to a mixer behave the same, so you don’t assign the ele servos as they will get exactly the same roll control as the ailerons all the time and it is unlikely you want that much even if you are using tailerons. It would also mean that the ele servos would be fed the same rudder value as the ail servos and clearly that would not be correct. So you need a different mixer for the ele servos, again inputs will be elevator maybe symm, maybe non-symm, Rudder –Tr non-symm.
Go to mixers menu, choose your ail mixer, switch on the model. Move the aileron stick and set the travel values, prob 100, if it goes the wrong way choose -100% (press rev/clr). Move the rudder stick hard over and choose the value that corresponds to stick in that direction (remember there is a value field for each direction since we specified non-symmetrical), play with the values and see how the ails respond to the rudder stick.
When you have the time do read the huge thread on rcgoups.com, it is full of people like you who are new to Mpx, and how to come to understand the Mpx very different way of doing things.
H
Define a mixer that has aileron and rudder as inputs. The order of input doesn’t matter since Mpx does not recognise an aileron channel, the channel is a free agent and is very egalitarian, it treats all inputs equally. In fact you don’t even need aileron as an input, the mixer and the channel won’t complain though of course your aileron servo would not respond to the aileron control!
Think more deeply about how the aileron surface should respond. You want it to respond to the aileron stick, to the aileron trim, to the rudder stick but not to the rudder trim. You probably want the aileron surface to move equally up and down i.e symmetrically to the aileron control since differential is handled by a separate ail diff function. You will want it to move different amounts to left and right rudder since the roll may not be the same either way so that wants a non-symmetrical curve, and also you don’t want rudder trim affecting the mix so you assign the control “Rudder –Tr†rather than “Rudderâ€. Choose each control to have an affect all the time, or to be assigned to a switch. So that’s basically how to define a mixer: what controls will go to this surface?; trim or no trim?; type of curve?; switch.
Then assign servos to it. All servos attached to a mixer behave the same, so you don’t assign the ele servos as they will get exactly the same roll control as the ailerons all the time and it is unlikely you want that much even if you are using tailerons. It would also mean that the ele servos would be fed the same rudder value as the ail servos and clearly that would not be correct. So you need a different mixer for the ele servos, again inputs will be elevator maybe symm, maybe non-symm, Rudder –Tr non-symm.
Go to mixers menu, choose your ail mixer, switch on the model. Move the aileron stick and set the travel values, prob 100, if it goes the wrong way choose -100% (press rev/clr). Move the rudder stick hard over and choose the value that corresponds to stick in that direction (remember there is a value field for each direction since we specified non-symmetrical), play with the values and see how the ails respond to the rudder stick.
When you have the time do read the huge thread on rcgoups.com, it is full of people like you who are new to Mpx, and how to come to understand the Mpx very different way of doing things.
H
10-20-2003, 08:01 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
For your Giles, at a basic level the elevator servos do not need to be assigned to the elevator+ mixer, that is just where the template assigned them. You can assign multiple channels direct to a control, so both those servos can be assigned to “Elevator†rather than the mixer. Same for 4 ailerons, if no mixing is required all 4 channels can be assigned straight into the aileron control. In fact you could have a 12 channel aileron only flying wing with absolutely no mixing required since all 12 channels can be assigned directly into the aileron control stick! Many of the things that require mixing in a Japanese radio do not need mixing in a Multiplex. And a Multiplex mixer can do far more than mixing, it can do pseudo flight modes, quintuple rates, reverse servos for inverted flying, all sorts of things. So your Mpx is nothing like a Japanese radio, which is why you must throw away everything you know about Japanese programming.
I would program the Giles as:
Aileron servos with inputs from aileron, rudder, ele, maybe flap for landing. I like to have two different mixes from ele, one that gives down flap for square loops, and one that gives up flap for parachutes, harriers etc. To do that, input elevator into the mixer twice! Yes, you can put the same control into all 5 inputs of the mixer if you want to. So the 5 inputs would be ele -Tr, ele -Tr, rudd -Tr, ail, and flap if I wanted a flap switch/slider for landing. Ail would be symm and on all the time, the ele inputs would be non-symm and assigned to the same 3 pos switch but in opposite directions so only one can be on at a time with centre being off for both, rudd would be on or switched, flap on all the time.
Ele mixer would have ele, rudd -Tr, flap if used so it gives offset trim.
Rudder would get rudd and throttle so that high power gives a smidgeon of right rudder trim.
I would use 2 modes, one normal and one for 3D Bearing in mind that 3D will require much more throttle to rudder compensation due to low airspeeds I would either switch the thr->rudd on and off with the mode switch or use two throttle inputs to the rudder, one with higher values and again use the same switch as the mode to toggle between them.
H
I would program the Giles as:
Aileron servos with inputs from aileron, rudder, ele, maybe flap for landing. I like to have two different mixes from ele, one that gives down flap for square loops, and one that gives up flap for parachutes, harriers etc. To do that, input elevator into the mixer twice! Yes, you can put the same control into all 5 inputs of the mixer if you want to. So the 5 inputs would be ele -Tr, ele -Tr, rudd -Tr, ail, and flap if I wanted a flap switch/slider for landing. Ail would be symm and on all the time, the ele inputs would be non-symm and assigned to the same 3 pos switch but in opposite directions so only one can be on at a time with centre being off for both, rudd would be on or switched, flap on all the time.
Ele mixer would have ele, rudd -Tr, flap if used so it gives offset trim.
Rudder would get rudd and throttle so that high power gives a smidgeon of right rudder trim.
I would use 2 modes, one normal and one for 3D Bearing in mind that 3D will require much more throttle to rudder compensation due to low airspeeds I would either switch the thr->rudd on and off with the mode switch or use two throttle inputs to the rudder, one with higher values and again use the same switch as the mode to toggle between them.
H
10-20-2003, 08:29 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Harry
Thanks it is all starting to make sense I will read all the threads later today. Then tomorrow I will start to reprogram on a new memory. That way I will not mess up what I have now a basic good flying model.
Again thanks
Thanks it is all starting to make sense I will read all the threads later today. Then tomorrow I will start to reprogram on a new memory. That way I will not mess up what I have now a basic good flying model.
Again thanks
10-21-2003, 06:41 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Harry
Am I now on the correct path?
1 Ail-Rud Where mix is Ail 100% Rud-tr 5% set to symmetrical - Switched on at all times
2 Ail-Rud
3 Ele-Rud Where mix is Ele 100% Rud-tr 10% set to up only –Switched on at all times
4 Ele-Rud
5 Rudder
6 Throttle
7 Choke
8 Ignition
If I am now on the correct path how do I add a mix for Spoilerons that will be switched?
Thanks Steve
Am I now on the correct path?
1 Ail-Rud Where mix is Ail 100% Rud-tr 5% set to symmetrical - Switched on at all times
2 Ail-Rud
3 Ele-Rud Where mix is Ele 100% Rud-tr 10% set to up only –Switched on at all times
4 Ele-Rud
5 Rudder
6 Throttle
7 Choke
8 Ignition
If I am now on the correct path how do I add a mix for Spoilerons that will be switched?
Thanks Steve
10-21-2003, 07:46 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Yep, what you have described should work but it can be tweaked a bit. For the ail mixer and ele mixer, where you have the Rudd -tr input I would make them non-symmetrical curves. Non-symm means that you choose what happens when you put in left rudder and separately choose what happens when you put in right rudder. If you have chosen symm on the ail mixer then you get the same amount of roll for both left and right rudder which is often not correct, the yaw-roll coupling can be different value for each direction of rudder. Same with elevator, you may need 5% with left rudder and 10% with right rudder, so use the non-symm curve.
Remember that servos 1, 2 need to be plugged in as left and right aileron respectively, not right and left aileron.
What sort of spoilerons do you want? A spoiler control switch that moves the ailerons up a set amount, or mixed from the elevator with a switch to turn it on and off?
H
Remember that servos 1, 2 need to be plugged in as left and right aileron respectively, not right and left aileron.
What sort of spoilerons do you want? A spoiler control switch that moves the ailerons up a set amount, or mixed from the elevator with a switch to turn it on and off?
H
10-21-2003, 08:11 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Spoileron that can be linked to a 3 position switch. With up switch for up spoiler and up elevator and with down switch for down flap with up elevator Centre switch No mix. Is it also posible to have 3D rates switch on with this mix but also to have it's own designated switch. Or am I just getting greedy now.
Thanks for all your help
Steve
Thanks for all your help
Steve
10-21-2003, 12:13 PM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Random RoyEvo question.
Is it possible to have different amounts of expo when you flip the dual rate switch or change flight modes? I tried both, and only the servo travel changes, not the expo like my old 8103 did.
Thanks a lot!
Jason
Is it possible to have different amounts of expo when you flip the dual rate switch or change flight modes? I tried both, and only the servo travel changes, not the expo like my old 8103 did.
Thanks a lot!
Jason
10-21-2003, 01:15 PM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Steve,
First of all we need to assign 2 of the Mix1-3 switches to a 3 pos switch For this demo I shall assign Mix1 and Mix 2 to switch L. Do be aware that though you can assign Mix1-3 to any switch, they are global assignments, not per model, so if you ever alter the assignment to suit a model it will lose that switch for others that use it.
Go to setup, assignment, switches, mix1, press enter, move switch L to the up position and press enter, go to mix 2, press enter, move switch L to the down position and press enter. What this does is assign mix 1 to be on (Mpx use * next to switch to show it is at the ON position) at L up and assign Mix2 to be ON at L down.
Then go to mixer def. Remember how we initially looked at the ailerons and said they are to take inputs from ail and rudd -tr control? Now we add that they take input from the elevator -tr control, but that would only give us one of the two mixes you want. So, input ele -tr on 2 separate inputs, now we have used 4 of the 5 inputs. Assign one of the ele to Mix1, non-symmetrical and the other to Mix2 non-symm. Thats the mixer re-defined. If any other models already use this mixer will their programming be messed up? No, for although they now pick up the 2 ele inputs as well, the ele inputs will default to nil values (always worth double checking though!) and their existing use of the ail and rud -tr has not been altered.
Put your mixer switch to the centre setting. Now go to mixers menu to set up the travels, and choose your ail mixer. See how it now has the 2 new ele lines, and the switching at the far right shows one with an up arrow and one with a down arrow. Move the switch the way of one arrow and see it turn to * to indicate ON. Switch on the model's Rx and watch the ails move. Activate the first ele line value, move the switch to see the * on that line, push the ele and set the value, pull the ele and set the value. Then go to the second line, move the switch to the *, push and pull the ele and set the values. The values in the second line will be reversed from the first line, that is -ve instead of +ve, or vice versa.
Rates can only be assigned to one switch, so either to the mixer switch and in one direction only which is probably not suitable, or to some other 2 pos switch which sounds better.
Harry
First of all we need to assign 2 of the Mix1-3 switches to a 3 pos switch For this demo I shall assign Mix1 and Mix 2 to switch L. Do be aware that though you can assign Mix1-3 to any switch, they are global assignments, not per model, so if you ever alter the assignment to suit a model it will lose that switch for others that use it.
Go to setup, assignment, switches, mix1, press enter, move switch L to the up position and press enter, go to mix 2, press enter, move switch L to the down position and press enter. What this does is assign mix 1 to be on (Mpx use * next to switch to show it is at the ON position) at L up and assign Mix2 to be ON at L down.
Then go to mixer def. Remember how we initially looked at the ailerons and said they are to take inputs from ail and rudd -tr control? Now we add that they take input from the elevator -tr control, but that would only give us one of the two mixes you want. So, input ele -tr on 2 separate inputs, now we have used 4 of the 5 inputs. Assign one of the ele to Mix1, non-symmetrical and the other to Mix2 non-symm. Thats the mixer re-defined. If any other models already use this mixer will their programming be messed up? No, for although they now pick up the 2 ele inputs as well, the ele inputs will default to nil values (always worth double checking though!) and their existing use of the ail and rud -tr has not been altered.
Put your mixer switch to the centre setting. Now go to mixers menu to set up the travels, and choose your ail mixer. See how it now has the 2 new ele lines, and the switching at the far right shows one with an up arrow and one with a down arrow. Move the switch the way of one arrow and see it turn to * to indicate ON. Switch on the model's Rx and watch the ails move. Activate the first ele line value, move the switch to see the * on that line, push the ele and set the value, pull the ele and set the value. Then go to the second line, move the switch to the *, push and pull the ele and set the values. The values in the second line will be reversed from the first line, that is -ve instead of +ve, or vice versa.
Rates can only be assigned to one switch, so either to the mixer switch and in one direction only which is probably not suitable, or to some other 2 pos switch which sounds better.
Harry
10-21-2003, 01:21 PM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Jason, I am afraid not. That is one of the Evo's limitations, expo is on or off, not switchable, and not per flight mode. There is only one expo setting per model.
H
H
10-21-2003, 01:30 PM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Steve, you could synthesise rates allied to the mixer switch in both directions if you create 2 new flight modes and assign one to switch up and one to switch down. In setup assign switches, you once again have to make that switch your global choice as the phase 1-3 switch. Phase 2 is the switch at centre OFF phase. Go to controls, choose each control in turn and for each phase set a travel value. For phases 1 and 3 set 100%, for phase 2 which is mixers off set low travel values. Note that you still have a d/r switch, though whatever rate you give it applies across all 3 phases, there isn't a separate rate per phase.
H
H
10-22-2003, 03:23 AM
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RE: Multiplex Mixing HEEEELP
Harry
Thanks for all your help over the last few days. I now have every thing working except the synthesized rates which I will endeavor to sort out soon. When you get to my age it easy to forget (Japanese programing) and hard to learn new tricks (MPX) but thanks to you I think this dog is well on his way to a whole new R/C way of life. If you see a white and red Giles 202 flying at any of the UK shows come over and say hello and perhaps I can buy you a beer.
Thanks again Steve
Thanks for all your help over the last few days. I now have every thing working except the synthesized rates which I will endeavor to sort out soon. When you get to my age it easy to forget (Japanese programing) and hard to learn new tricks (MPX) but thanks to you I think this dog is well on his way to a whole new R/C way of life. If you see a white and red Giles 202 flying at any of the UK shows come over and say hello and perhaps I can buy you a beer.
Thanks again Steve
