HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Mpx make only one version of their radios to suit everything and every stick mode. When you get it, all sticks are spring centred and there is no ratchet. You decide which side is to be the throttle, and remove the spring, if you want a ratchet you rotate a screw to raise the ratchet into operation. The instructions tell you that you must do it, you are not expected to send it back to Mpx. If you are swapping between heli and fixed wing all you do is rotate the screw to enable or disable the ratchet. As mentioned in previous posts, you are expected to fit/swap around the switches and buttons to suit you. What other make's instruction book tells you to drill through the case, install a switch and plug it into the motherboard?!! There is no concept of different model types such as acro, glider or heli. From a menu you name each control with elevator or pitch, rudder or yaw, throttle or airbrake or spoiler etc. The naming is specific to each model, not a global assignment. If you want you can have heli and glider and power model controls in the same model. When you go into the controls set-up menu, the names bring the relevant parameters with them. All the built-in mixers for glider and heli etc are available to all models. So if you ever have a CCPM head heli with V-tail and crow braking, you can do it! Now there's an example of how having more flexibility becomes useless.

Harry

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

That works because MPX allows you to open the case. Futaba does not.

The 10x and 9z both use an approach where there is a doo-hickey (that's a technical term BTW) that can act as a ratchet if it's one way around, or a smooth friction source if it's the other way around. To convert between ratchet and friction you simply turn the doo-hickey around. The only difference is that JR tells you its okay for you to do this yourself, whereas Futaba tells you that if you open up the TX then your warranty is immediately NULL and void - so you should send the radio to them for it's airplane to heli conversion (or vice versa).

Seems to me that the way they should both do it is have one of the plastic ratchet sources on both sides of the back of the gimbal, so that instead of being able to fit one doo-hickey on it, they can fit two - one on each side. Then fit a small spring under the screw for each one, and have holes in the back of the TX case that allow you to access these screws (as is done with e.g. the screws for adjusting stick tension, angle etc). This would mean that by slightly backing out one screw and screwing in the other, you could change between friction and ratchet in a heartbeat, without needing to open the case and void your warranty, or return the TX to the manufacturer.

Regs,
Gordon

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Gordon, that's virtually how Mpx does it, a ratchet is fitted to both left and right sticks, you just activate whichever you want. The ratchet moves up the screw thread so the "tension" is adjustable as it comes into play. For continental Europeans who like playing with complex land vehicles and tracked vehicles or model tug-boats with swivelling props, they can have both left and right sticks as ratcheted non-centring throttles at the same time, there are 2 or 3 separate throttle controls to be assigned to sticks in the naming menus so you can assign the name throttle, with throttle parameters, to at least two different sticks yet set up the parameters for each throttle stick independently. For aero users this allows you to assign two entirely separate throttles for multi-engines, one to a stick and one to slider, then switch between one stick commoned to both servos, one stick mixing to the slider, or stick and slider operating independently. The only difference to your wish Gordon is that to adjust the ratchet you take the back off an Mpx set, not poke a driver through a hole. Mpx backs are held on by 2 quick release spring catches, not by screws, so they go off and on in an instant.

Harry

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

>

Not on the helo version. You can MAKE flaperons with two Code 55-58 mixes, but you lose expo on the aux channel that the second servo is on.

Such is what I meant by a one-model-type radio. You can fly a plank with the helo version of the 10X, but with basics only. Don't even try to set-up a helo with the plank 10X.

So the "extra" channels are why? Gotcha; makes sense.

Steve

P.S.: Alan Dye, check your e-mail. I got a juicy one the other day...<G>

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

LOL !! You got me on that one - my heli radio is an old SXII, and I only have the aircraft version of the 10X, so I have based my 10x opinions on that. Like I said earlier, I wish they would combine the aircraft & heli versions. My old JR X347's do combine heli & aircraft functions, but that idea was ditched for the bigger radios.

Isn't progress a wonderful thing ? ;-)

Gordon

Razor-RCU

My Feedback: (50)

None of y'all can compete with my open faced Kraft gold edition 6 CH. radio

locoworks

the ratchet is not the only difference between the aero and the heli WC2,s , the non latching switch is on the otherside, ie top left to top right. plus, im not too sure of this one, they only claim the preset snaproll switches are on the aero version. ive never seen a heli version, we asked the importer , who we have a trade account with, we wanted aero versions with no ratchet, thats what we got. is anyone using the Nimh tranny battery in the Zap? we find in the cold weather we have over here that they don't seem to last too well compared to nicads. they're great on warmer days but cold kills 'em quick.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

One of my buddies similarly asked Futaba for the aero version, with the throttle using friction instead of the ratchet. You should have seen the look of utter disbelief on his face when his radio arrived and he saw what Futaba had done - they took the ratchet out completely instead of turning it around, so the throttle stick not only had no ratchet, it also had no friction - not even enough to overcome the force that the wiring applies to the stick. Consequently, the throttle stick kept trying to centre itself, and every time it did it was accompanied by a huge string of obscenities. ;-)

That was the beginning of the end for Jimmy - he got rid of the Wc2 and bought one of those Graupners that comes with the complete bondage harness.

Gordon

MTT

My Feedback: (8)

Let me get this straight :

So, if you want to fly both helicopters and complex fixed wing A/C, you will need 2 of Futaba's top of the line TX?

I think I'll stick with my my "pizza-box-design" mc 3030, and maybe upgrade one day to the "pizza-box-design" mc 4000.

Michael

Dyehard

Nope, wrong brand. You will need two JR 10Xs to fly both complex aircraft and helis. The Futaba top of the line radio has both heli and airplane software, the JR 10X doesn't.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Just a small update -
I mentioned previously that the Mpx 4000 can do the entire P-51 retract and inner door sequencing if using a proportional servo to drive the retracts. This was based on my transfer of the program from the Mpx 3030 which is more limited in its software switching.

On my bench I now have a test rig using an ordinary JR servo for the doors and a proper non-proportional retract servo (Hitec HS75BB). The full sequencing is available with a retract servo and can easily be tweaked in values to accomodate a pneumatic system. At switch down, the door servo opens, about 2 seconds later the retract servo starts its journey and about a second after it has finished lowering the gear, the 4000 closes the door. At switch up the door servo opens, about 2 seconds later the retract starts its journey and about a second after the gear is fully up, the 4000 closes the door again. The time values can be shortened or extended to suit the retract servo going more slowly under load, and to allow for slowing down the door servo rather than bang open bang shut.

Such powerful programming is available because the 4000 has heaps of different kinds of software switches and switch emulations, analogue attenuations and separations of the ON and OFF points, the ability to link the software switch to the position of a control or the position of a servo (they are not the same thing!), the ability to combine multiple switches with AND or OR commands to form yet new switches, and virtual controls which as the name suggests do not exist but behave as if they do!

The door and retract program is essentially very simple. Slow the retract function so that the Tx synthesises a servo travelling sequence of numbers and attach a simple control switch to each end of the "servo" travel. Combine the two switches with an OR command and use that output to switch a virtual control which commands the door servo. So the Tx reads that if the retract servo (the servo, not the retract control switch) is up OR down, the OR function is true and activates a virtual control to drive the door servo to a pre-set position i.e. closed. When the retract servo is neither up or down the OR function goes false and switches the door open.

Can any of the other radios do the full P-51 sequence and tell us how they program it, or can they just do the partial sequence of door open gear down, gear up door closed?

Harry

Phil Cole

You got me thinking, Harry.

I figured a way to do the door sequencing with a 9Z. I was using a 9ZH-WC2, but I expect this will work for all 9Z models.

1. Set the channel delay on the gear channel so it takes
a few seconds to travel end to end.

2. Create a Pmix: Master=Gear(link on), Slave=door channel
mix type=CRV.
Set the curve to 100 -100 -100 -100 -100 -100 100.
I.e. a U-shape with steep sides and a flat bottom.
You can put some delay on the door channel so they don't
flop open, but make sure that the doors are faster than the
gear.

I only did this using the servo display, not with a real setup (No P-51s handy) so be carefull when you try it not to get gear-door collisions.

What I see happen on the SRV display when the gear switch is operated(either way):

1. The gear channel starts to move slowly from end to the other.
2. The door channel moves to the other end quickly, just after
the gear starts to move.
3. The door channel returns to its original position as the gear
nears the end of its travel.

You could use retract servos or pneumatics for either of both. Just arrange things so the gear moves when the gear channel is at the middle of its travel. Be sure the delay setting on the gear is long enough to allow the gear to reach its destination before the doors close again.

If you make the mix curve L-shaped, then you can have the doors remain open. If you have both sorts of door, then you can use two door channels and two Pmixes.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

As Allen mentioned, in the Futaba, both their aircaft and helicopter versions of the 9Z have the software for both Helis and fixed wing ... but they still have a number of hardware differences between their aircraft and heli version, plus you need to send the aircraft version back to Futaba for a stick conversion if you want to fly a heli (unless you fly heli's with a ratchet, or are willing to nullify your warranty by doing the conversion yourself).

Regs,
Gordon

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Phil,

Nice solution! I gave it a try on my test rig with the 4000 to make sure it works. Your disadvantage is that the servo slow time value may have to be quite a bit higher because of the lower resolution in reading servo position, and consequently the door servo wants to open later on switch down, and close earlier following the wheels up than in my solution. That is because you are using a 7 point curve (is that the 9Z max points?) and can therefore measure each 1/7th of retract servo travel. Therefore when the Tx thinks the gear is 6/7 of the way up, it closes the door, so you must slow it sufficiently to be far enough behind the real retract servo. My Hitec retract servo triggers either side of the mid-point so you have 2/3 of 1/2 (0.3) of the time value for the gear to get up before the door starts to close. The 4000 allows 13 point curves, thus making the curve more right angled at the ends and allowing 5/6 of 1/2 (0.4) of the time value for the gear to get up before the doors close. In the 4000 I don't have to use a mixer from retract to another channel, Mpx allow a control to be sent direct to whichever and as many channels as you want so I just send the retract signal direct to both the retract servo and the door servo, applying the multi-point curve to the door servo. This ability of Mpx to send controls direct to channels of choice makes multi-aileron or multi-elevator servos very easy, just choose which channels you want to plug the servos into and send the control directly to them, there is no need to invoke flaperon or ailevator mixes.

My solution uses software to emulate having micro-switches in the model's wheel wells triggered by the undercarriage legs. Mpx defines the centre of a servo as position 0, one end of travel as +100 and the other end of travel as -100. Since I attached one switch to -99 retract servo and the other to +99, the resolution is far higher, 198 points in effect compared to a 7 or 13 point curve. This gives much finer tuning of the times at which doors move and allows for slowing of the door servo.

Now come on everyone, there must be plenty of fancy tricks like this that we can usefully create programs for, if someone will come up with a request for their Tx to do something.

This thread should have stopped at the first reply, with the answer "No". Yet the number of replies and views might be a record for the radios forum!

Harry

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

Harry,
I'm a user of the 4000, but I don't know half as much as you do, so keep them coming, I love it.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

I have only had it for 3 weeks!!! I think 2 years of prog'ing the 3030 helped me though.

Just say what you want to do Roger and I will try to make a program. So far I have triple rate switches, an Mpx version of the Futaba faq's elevator rate switched by rudder which is fantastic for aeros and 3D, throttle-elevator trim offset that comes in after a few seconds allowing time for speed to change rather than immediate on power change, unequal aileron travel controlled by throttle initially by discrete finite switching points but I am working on using an analogue attenuation switch to give infinitely variable transformation of the travel. This could also be applied to throttle-elevator to alter travel continuously and give equal response whether fast or slow. I am working on multi-mix for knife edge when using multiple aileron or elevator servos since the Mpx servomixing architecture does not allow in-flight simultaneous adjustment of 2 servos on separate channels, but I can probably do it with multimixing.

To do the P51 sequence, set the retract control speed to 4 seconds in both directions. Assign a control, preferably one you have no switch connected to e.g control M, to aux1 and assign the door servo to aux1. Assign control switches 1 and 2 to the retract servo, not the retract control, one at +99 and one at -99 or thereabouts Go to logical switch one, set the inputs as C1 and C2, set to OR, use the R button to ensure that the C switches go *, one at retract up and one at down. The 4000 now recognises wheels fully up OR wheels fully down and switch L1's output reflects this. Go to the aux1 control and set a fixed value of 100% switched by L1.
The 4000 is synthesising the retract servo's position and one of the C1 and C2 switches are "closed" at either end of the servo travel, providing power to the door servo to close. However when synthesising the retract's position the time value needs to be at least twice the retract servo's own speed, since the servo will not move until the control has passed the mid point so half of the time value is gone while waiting for the synthesiser to get half way and trigger the retract servo.

Harry

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

Thanks for the offer Harry, I might take you up on it. I'm into Aerobatics, and I've done some mild mixing for instance with rudder deflection to the right for Knife Edge, the elevator goes up some to the aircraft from tuckning to landing gear. Also with up elevator, the rudder goes right some to the aircraft straight.
The potential is enormous, not my potential, but rather the radio

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Phil Cole,

I have just thought that you probably can not do the P-51 door and retract sequence with the 9Z after all. Throttle, rudder, elevator, 2xaileron, 2x flap servos leaves you with 1 proportional channel and you can't drive a gear and door servo independently on one channel. If you use PCM you have an extra 2 position channel, but the gear channel needs servo slowing and the door channel needs a 7 point curve and I doubt your 2 position channel allows either of those. Am I right? To free up a proportional channel you will have to Y-lead the flap servos, with all the problems of matching travel which that brings. So you can program it on the bench, but it looks like you can not use it for real unless you make other compromises which Mpx and JR10 users do not have to make.

And now a word from someone who has owned 9Zs, I have copied and pasted this from the most recent posts in the thread about a poll for 9Z or 10X -
"I've owned lots of Futabas & JRs over the last 29.5 years (never a 10X, but I have had several 8Us and 9Zs), and my MPX Profi 4000 blows them all away. Ann Marie keeps talking about the power and flexibility of the 9Z. You have not seen power and flexibility until you've flown the Profi, light years ahead of the 9Z in that area and can't even be compared to the 10X ."

Harry

Phil Cole

Peace, Harry.

There's no doubt in my mind that the 4000 can do more than a 9Z. I was just happy that I'd figured out how to do the retract thing when I'd previously convinced myself it couldn't be done. It was more a case of finding and using a subtle side-effect than using the programming tools as they were intended.

I do think the Mulitplex approach of giving you general purpose tools to create your own programs is better than the usual approach of giving you a bunch of fixed programs and letting you alter the parameters a bit. It just seems more elegant to me.

However, I do have two 9Zs and bunch of PCM receivers, so I'll stick with them while they can get my job done, no matter how inelegantly.

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Nicely put Phil. Your'e a gentleman.

This has been a most interesting thread. I'm still a babe in the woods at this stuff. This info really helps me understand just what these modern top of the line radio's are all about. Power to create.

fiery

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Is there scope for some sort of permanent thread/sub-forum for good ideas for what to do with these advanced computer radios, like the use of rudder as the elevator rate switch, gear/door sequencing, etc? The actual “how to” might be different for each type, and those who can come up with programs can post how to do it for that type, but often it is coming up with bright ideas like the rudder as rate switch that are the hardest part! It would seem a waste to use these top radios just for their rate switches and flaperons etc, a 6 channel computer can do those. Any thoughts?

Harry

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

Harry,
Lets start a sub forum on the MC 4000, and you can host it.

Phil Cole

There is a fairly loosely moderated email list on groups.yahoo.com for 9Zs. It's called futaba9z.

Post message: [email protected]
Subscribe: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]

RCRC

My Feedback: (56)

Did anybody mention the 9Z is heavy? To lighten it up and improve the ergonomics would certainly be wonderful improvements. I agree the menus are not user friendly.

Steve Campbell2

Being basically computer-illiterate anyway, I wouldn't know user-friendly from DOS. To me, the 9Z's menus have a symmetry that is not difficult to grasp, once you buy into the idea of "flight conditions".

I am delighted every time I pick mine up. I set up the trainer function last night; what a treat. I've been doing the buddy box thing, with various radios, for many years. The norm is a switch on the master box that the instructor must hold to give control to the student. Whe the inevitable oops occurs, you gotta release the switch and recover the model.

The 9Z allows you to set the switch so that one flick activates the trainer mode- and leaves it activated- and another flick turns it off. This isn't good, you say; you're still having to manipulate a switch.

Not so, grasshopper. You can also program an override mix, where the master tx can make a correction which overwrites whatever the student may be doing with his sticks. As soon as the master sticks are still, the student has control again.

What this means in practical terms is that now I hit the switch, relax my fingers, and just watch the airplane while giving verbal instruction/encouragement. Same as before, except for the fact that instead of taking the model completely away from the student when a mistake is made, I just correct it and he keeps flying, without the added exercise of formally "giving" the model back to him.

Drawbacks? Sure; the overwrite mix doesn't work well on throttle, since wherever the master stick is is where the throttle will be. So don't program the throttle for command mix...<G>

The 9Z is heavy? Not any heavier than that MultiPlex I handled. Also, there is this handy innovation called a neck strap, and it's cousin, the transmitter tray...<G>

Steve