AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
11-02-2003, 01:50 PM
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AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Hi All,
Well I suspect this is the start of a thread that will take a year or two to close. I am embarking on a scratch build of the AVRO MkIV Triplane (1910-11). Only one was ever built and it does not survive today. Two replicas were built for the movie "Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines". (If you know the movie, it is the one that Terry Thomas flies.) One was never assembled and the parts are supposed to be somewhere in a warehouse in France. The one that was completed is in the Shuttleworth collection in England and is regularly flown.
At this point, my plan is to built it 1/6 scale which will put the wingspan at 64 inches. Because there is so little enclosed fuselage and that it is triangular, I am concerned that I won't have enough room for the "non-authentic" stuff like the receiver, servos, etc. I may have to bump it up to 1/4 scale which puts it at an 8 foot wingspan. It also looks like it will be a bear to try to assemble and disassemble. If I build smaller one, it may have to be built as one piece. The larger one might lend itself better to coming apart for transport and storage.
For data, I have plenty of pictures of the Shuttelworth replica and some documentation about building and flying the plane for the movie. I also have some sketchy documentation about the original. I have a copy of plans for a model of the plane that was made by R/N and the model itself that I made over 25 years ago. Lastly, I have a copy of a 3-part article that describes the building of a 1/2 scale version that was done by Ian Turney-White in the UK in 1992.
The picture below is a rendering of the 3D model (SolidWorks) that is the basis for the project. All the major surfaces are there. Missing is the fuel tank, radiator, motor, tail skid and lot of details. My only serious concession to authenticity is that I intend to put ailerons in the center wings. The original was a wing warper which I think is beyond me at this point.
My plan is to have the ribs laser cut for me. I think they should be a combination of ply and balsa. The thicker ones will be made by laminating thinner ones together. I don't think there is much point in having the rest laser cut since most of it would be from stick stock.
That's it for now.
Well I suspect this is the start of a thread that will take a year or two to close. I am embarking on a scratch build of the AVRO MkIV Triplane (1910-11). Only one was ever built and it does not survive today. Two replicas were built for the movie "Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines". (If you know the movie, it is the one that Terry Thomas flies.) One was never assembled and the parts are supposed to be somewhere in a warehouse in France. The one that was completed is in the Shuttleworth collection in England and is regularly flown.
At this point, my plan is to built it 1/6 scale which will put the wingspan at 64 inches. Because there is so little enclosed fuselage and that it is triangular, I am concerned that I won't have enough room for the "non-authentic" stuff like the receiver, servos, etc. I may have to bump it up to 1/4 scale which puts it at an 8 foot wingspan. It also looks like it will be a bear to try to assemble and disassemble. If I build smaller one, it may have to be built as one piece. The larger one might lend itself better to coming apart for transport and storage.
For data, I have plenty of pictures of the Shuttelworth replica and some documentation about building and flying the plane for the movie. I also have some sketchy documentation about the original. I have a copy of plans for a model of the plane that was made by R/N and the model itself that I made over 25 years ago. Lastly, I have a copy of a 3-part article that describes the building of a 1/2 scale version that was done by Ian Turney-White in the UK in 1992.
The picture below is a rendering of the 3D model (SolidWorks) that is the basis for the project. All the major surfaces are there. Missing is the fuel tank, radiator, motor, tail skid and lot of details. My only serious concession to authenticity is that I intend to put ailerons in the center wings. The original was a wing warper which I think is beyond me at this point.
My plan is to have the ribs laser cut for me. I think they should be a combination of ply and balsa. The thicker ones will be made by laminating thinner ones together. I don't think there is much point in having the rest laser cut since most of it would be from stick stock.
That's it for now.
11-27-2003, 06:41 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Go to the following web site and click on the spot where they say Crazy Fat Ass airplanes, or something like that. There is a photo of a very large version of what you are intending to try and model. The video clips of other models there are very good to.[&:]
www.wspromotion.com/serge-rc.html
I've gotten to see that replica used in the movie fly. I was station in England for four years and made it to many airshows, including a couple at Old Warden. That's where the ShuttleWorth Collection is housed. Good luck & have fun !!![&:]
www.wspromotion.com/serge-rc.html
I've gotten to see that replica used in the movie fly. I was station in England for four years and made it to many airshows, including a couple at Old Warden. That's where the ShuttleWorth Collection is housed. Good luck & have fun !!![&:]
11-28-2003, 08:42 AM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Yes, that is the plane. That model was built in 1992 by Ian Turney-White in the UK. It is a 1/2 scale version!! An incredible project. There was a three part article written about it in Radio Scale Aircraft in 1993. I have a copy of those articles and they have been very helpful.
So far I am on track. The design is moving along nicely. It is still 1/6 scale (64" wing span) and I think I can avoid moving to 1/4. That all depends on the radio gear. So far, my saving grace is that the open section of the fuselage was covered. If need be, I can move a servo into that area to aviod having to make the plane bigger.
Here is what I have so far for radio gear placement. I have been able to get it all within the fuselage. The rear servos are for the ailerons. The middle two are for the elevator and rudder. The forward one is for the throttle. The ailerons are in the back because it will be easier to hook and unhook the linkage when setting up and breaking down the plane. I hope to put the fuel in either the foward compartment or in a scale fuel tank hung from the top wing.
So far I am on track. The design is moving along nicely. It is still 1/6 scale (64" wing span) and I think I can avoid moving to 1/4. That all depends on the radio gear. So far, my saving grace is that the open section of the fuselage was covered. If need be, I can move a servo into that area to aviod having to make the plane bigger.
Here is what I have so far for radio gear placement. I have been able to get it all within the fuselage. The rear servos are for the ailerons. The middle two are for the elevator and rudder. The forward one is for the throttle. The ailerons are in the back because it will be easier to hook and unhook the linkage when setting up and breaking down the plane. I hope to put the fuel in either the foward compartment or in a scale fuel tank hung from the top wing.
11-28-2003, 05:10 PM
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Good to hear from you...!
Dear Chevelle:
The PIPE Here again...just off the phone with the Webmaster of http://www.biplanes.de/ himself, Jens Klank, all the way to GERMANY this Friday afternoon (for me) and evening (for him)!
Good to hear from you again, Chevelle...right NOW my 1980s-vintage Balsa USA Swizzle Stick is undergoing REPAIRS from a solar glare caused CRASH
last September 21st (but VERY little damage), and the rebuilding HAS been a bit "delayed"...but in a very few weeks my 'Swizzler" will be ready to fly once more...and my AMA card JUST arrived this Friday in the mail for next season's flying!
That Avro TRIPLANE project souns like a REAL NICE one...as far as I can remember, only the upper TWO panels of the wing had wing warping, and if you're aboue to research how it was done, with a POWERFUL enough digital servo...something like the Hitec 5925, perhaps...you SHOULD easily be able to do the wing warping thing for REAL for some added realism!
You MIGHT know about George Marsden's Avro 1911 BIPLANE plans...there used to be ads for them in the model magazines...and from a set of the plans for THAT aircraft, IF it also used wing warping, you could figure out a way on how to do it for your earlier triplane model!
Now, where you ARE in New York State, you KNOW that Avro Triplane model WOULD BE VERY WELCOME at the
OLD RHINEBECK AERODROME RC event some year when you can get it finished and flying!
Some of MY ideas for Pioneer era aircraft run the gamut from the British designed Eastbourne and Barnwell monoplanes (I've got articles on building each of these from the AMA mag and Flying Models, as Free Flight engine powered aircraft), very likely the Antoinette IV monoplane version, that had TRAILING EDGE ailerons on its wings, and even a set of drawings that appeared in WW I AERO of the famous Bill King-piloted 1911 Hanriot Monoplane, which IS regularly flown at Rhinebeck as a reproduction that they've had for MANY years now.
Even the late Wally Batter of Canada had a VERY nice set of drawings in one WW I AERO issue (No.81, if I remember right) of the Santos-Dumont Demoiselle, which would make a FANTASTIC Giant Scale model...and I've got these Demoiselle drawings scanned onto my hard disk, for later CAD conversion into RC model construction plans!
And some Québec based modelers even brought a Blériot XI Giant Scale model with working wing warping to Rhinebeck one year back in 2001, I think, to that much-beloved RC event...some photos of it can be seen at http://www.biplanes.de/modelle_b.shtml , and ESPECIALLY at http://www.biplanes.de/rc_modelle_bi...mod_big_16.htm !!!
I know you're going to enjoy your Avro Triplane project! Now, the following paragraph IS only a "dream" of mine...but...
If a REMAKE of "Those Magnificient Men" could ever have been done, I'd place PATRICK STEWART in Robert Morley's role (Capt. PICARD as Lord Rawnsley!!!), Cary Elwes in Edward Fox's role as the British pilot of the Antoinette flown in the movie, and have JOHN CLEESE from Monty Python as Sir Percy Ware-Armitage flying the Avro Triplane, with ERIC IDLE as his "lackey"! And perhaps Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean and Blackadder) as the Brooklands racetrack's fire chief, the role BENNY HILL had in the first movie! Also, the Germans would NOT have been flying the Eardley-Billing biplane in that movie...I'd have them in a REAL Teutonic Pioneer-era aircraft, an Etrich Taube! Oh, what I COULD have done if I could be the producer of a remake of THAT favorite antique aviation movie...LOL!
I just LOVE those old-timey planes...and good luck with your Avro Triplane project...happy holidays!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
(GREAT CAD images for the framework of your Avro...thanks very much for sharing them with us!!!)
The PIPE Here again...just off the phone with the Webmaster of http://www.biplanes.de/ himself, Jens Klank, all the way to GERMANY this Friday afternoon (for me) and evening (for him)!
Good to hear from you again, Chevelle...right NOW my 1980s-vintage Balsa USA Swizzle Stick is undergoing REPAIRS from a solar glare caused CRASH
last September 21st (but VERY little damage), and the rebuilding HAS been a bit "delayed"...but in a very few weeks my 'Swizzler" will be ready to fly once more...and my AMA card JUST arrived this Friday in the mail for next season's flying!That Avro TRIPLANE project souns like a REAL NICE one...as far as I can remember, only the upper TWO panels of the wing had wing warping, and if you're aboue to research how it was done, with a POWERFUL enough digital servo...something like the Hitec 5925, perhaps...you SHOULD easily be able to do the wing warping thing for REAL for some added realism!
You MIGHT know about George Marsden's Avro 1911 BIPLANE plans...there used to be ads for them in the model magazines...and from a set of the plans for THAT aircraft, IF it also used wing warping, you could figure out a way on how to do it for your earlier triplane model!
Now, where you ARE in New York State, you KNOW that Avro Triplane model WOULD BE VERY WELCOME at the
OLD RHINEBECK AERODROME RC event some year when you can get it finished and flying!Some of MY ideas for Pioneer era aircraft run the gamut from the British designed Eastbourne and Barnwell monoplanes (I've got articles on building each of these from the AMA mag and Flying Models, as Free Flight engine powered aircraft), very likely the Antoinette IV monoplane version, that had TRAILING EDGE ailerons on its wings, and even a set of drawings that appeared in WW I AERO of the famous Bill King-piloted 1911 Hanriot Monoplane, which IS regularly flown at Rhinebeck as a reproduction that they've had for MANY years now.
Even the late Wally Batter of Canada had a VERY nice set of drawings in one WW I AERO issue (No.81, if I remember right) of the Santos-Dumont Demoiselle, which would make a FANTASTIC Giant Scale model...and I've got these Demoiselle drawings scanned onto my hard disk, for later CAD conversion into RC model construction plans!
And some Québec based modelers even brought a Blériot XI Giant Scale model with working wing warping to Rhinebeck one year back in 2001, I think, to that much-beloved RC event...some photos of it can be seen at http://www.biplanes.de/modelle_b.shtml , and ESPECIALLY at http://www.biplanes.de/rc_modelle_bi...mod_big_16.htm !!!
I know you're going to enjoy your Avro Triplane project! Now, the following paragraph IS only a "dream" of mine...but...
If a REMAKE of "Those Magnificient Men" could ever have been done, I'd place PATRICK STEWART in Robert Morley's role (Capt. PICARD as Lord Rawnsley!!!), Cary Elwes in Edward Fox's role as the British pilot of the Antoinette flown in the movie, and have JOHN CLEESE from Monty Python as Sir Percy Ware-Armitage flying the Avro Triplane, with ERIC IDLE as his "lackey"! And perhaps Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean and Blackadder) as the Brooklands racetrack's fire chief, the role BENNY HILL had in the first movie! Also, the Germans would NOT have been flying the Eardley-Billing biplane in that movie...I'd have them in a REAL Teutonic Pioneer-era aircraft, an Etrich Taube! Oh, what I COULD have done if I could be the producer of a remake of THAT favorite antique aviation movie...LOL!
I just LOVE those old-timey planes...and good luck with your Avro Triplane project...happy holidays!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
(GREAT CAD images for the framework of your Avro...thanks very much for sharing them with us!!!)
11-29-2003, 10:33 AM
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RE: Good to hear from you...!
Salute! Pipe,
You are right about the wing warping. Only the outboard sections of the upper and middle wing warped. There was a great deal of detail in the articles about Ian Turney-White's AVRO. That is what convinced me that it would beyond me. LOL
I have been to Rhinebeck many times, including the 2002 R/C weekend. I will definitely take the AVRO when it is airworthy, assuming the Rhinebeck management problems are resolved.
It too have fun recasting movies. I just wish I could get a copy of Those Magnificent Men... since it has been such a long time since I've seen it.
I'll post more pictures when reasonable progress has been made.
You are right about the wing warping. Only the outboard sections of the upper and middle wing warped. There was a great deal of detail in the articles about Ian Turney-White's AVRO. That is what convinced me that it would beyond me. LOL
I have been to Rhinebeck many times, including the 2002 R/C weekend. I will definitely take the AVRO when it is airworthy, assuming the Rhinebeck management problems are resolved.
It too have fun recasting movies. I just wish I could get a copy of Those Magnificent Men... since it has been such a long time since I've seen it.
I'll post more pictures when reasonable progress has been made.
11-29-2003, 12:21 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Hi Chevelle
don't forget the pilot! A good place to hide a Receiver or battery pack inside of instead of stuffing. Maybe even a micro servo for throttle with the pushrod moving his arm. Servo under the seat is another good place- upside down for rudder and moving his feet. Wing warping is very possible, and not even with that strong of a servo, but it makes you do what you feel badly doing- make a very thin, weak wing that does depend on the bracing wires!
What CAD program are you using for that mock up plan? It looks nice.
von Hammer
don't forget the pilot! A good place to hide a Receiver or battery pack inside of instead of stuffing. Maybe even a micro servo for throttle with the pushrod moving his arm. Servo under the seat is another good place- upside down for rudder and moving his feet. Wing warping is very possible, and not even with that strong of a servo, but it makes you do what you feel badly doing- make a very thin, weak wing that does depend on the bracing wires!
What CAD program are you using for that mock up plan? It looks nice.
von Hammer
11-29-2003, 04:14 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
S! von Hammer
The rear servos are where the pilot would sit. (I'll put one in from the hips up.) I would like to avoid putting batteries in the pilot since that would be behind the CG. The forward area can fit the battery and the receiver OK. The tricky part will be the fuel. As it is shown now, the fuel tank that is hung from the upper wing will be the read thing! The one that I modeled is 11.8 cubic inches or 6.5 fluid ounces. I haven't calculated the weight yet but it should be light. I am assuming a 35 2-stroke equivalent would power it just fine. If I could stash the batteries, I'd make it electric. Cleaning that thing will be a pain!
There are two reasons why I think that wing warping is over my head. One is the structural part. The main section of the wings has to be strong. The outer sections of the top and middle wing are supposed to flex. I could get into hinged spars and other nonsense but my biggest fear is that I'd get it all done and find that I have a wing set that is two strong or two weak or not enough warping travel. I do not want to under go a major redesign at that point. The second reason is the rigging. It will take quite a network of pullies and wires to get the wings to warp properly.
The ailerons are indeed non-authentic but much more straight forward. If I do well with this one, maybe I'll build another even more realistic.
I'm using SolidWorks. I use it for work as well. It's a GREAT program and fun too. (Big bucks though ~$3500) I'm sure that other 3D CAD packages can do a fine job as well. I use TurboCAD for 2D drawings but it can do 3D as well. Someday I'll have to see what it can do in 3D.
The rear servos are where the pilot would sit. (I'll put one in from the hips up.) I would like to avoid putting batteries in the pilot since that would be behind the CG. The forward area can fit the battery and the receiver OK. The tricky part will be the fuel. As it is shown now, the fuel tank that is hung from the upper wing will be the read thing! The one that I modeled is 11.8 cubic inches or 6.5 fluid ounces. I haven't calculated the weight yet but it should be light. I am assuming a 35 2-stroke equivalent would power it just fine. If I could stash the batteries, I'd make it electric. Cleaning that thing will be a pain!
There are two reasons why I think that wing warping is over my head. One is the structural part. The main section of the wings has to be strong. The outer sections of the top and middle wing are supposed to flex. I could get into hinged spars and other nonsense but my biggest fear is that I'd get it all done and find that I have a wing set that is two strong or two weak or not enough warping travel. I do not want to under go a major redesign at that point. The second reason is the rigging. It will take quite a network of pullies and wires to get the wings to warp properly.
The ailerons are indeed non-authentic but much more straight forward. If I do well with this one, maybe I'll build another even more realistic.
I'm using SolidWorks. I use it for work as well. It's a GREAT program and fun too. (Big bucks though ~$3500) I'm sure that other 3D CAD packages can do a fine job as well. I use TurboCAD for 2D drawings but it can do 3D as well. Someday I'll have to see what it can do in 3D.
11-30-2003, 10:16 AM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Update: 11/20/03
I have modeled and put in a Saito 30 but it sure looks small. For reference, the R/N model with a 32in wingspan was supposed to freeflight with an .049. My version is twice that size. Twice the size, means four times the weight and presumably, four times the engine is required. That would be a .20 so I figured that a .30 four stroke would be just fine.
Since there is no room in the fuse for the fuel, I intend to use the scale tank as a functional tank. Right now, it's volume is 9.8 fl-oz. Since I'm going to have to make the danged thing, I'm sure the actual volume will be less, probably on the order of 9 fl-oz. I'm figuring that is good for 8 min or so with the Saito 30.
Any thoughts?
I have modeled and put in a Saito 30 but it sure looks small. For reference, the R/N model with a 32in wingspan was supposed to freeflight with an .049. My version is twice that size. Twice the size, means four times the weight and presumably, four times the engine is required. That would be a .20 so I figured that a .30 four stroke would be just fine.
Since there is no room in the fuse for the fuel, I intend to use the scale tank as a functional tank. Right now, it's volume is 9.8 fl-oz. Since I'm going to have to make the danged thing, I'm sure the actual volume will be less, probably on the order of 9 fl-oz. I'm figuring that is good for 8 min or so with the Saito 30.
Any thoughts?
11-30-2003, 03:55 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Great project. I love the pioneer planes as well.
Chevelle
How about 1/5th scale if you think 1/6th may be limiting? I though 1/6 was THE scale until a friend sold me his 1/5th scale Fokker D.VIII. He had it beside his 1/6 VK Dr.I and it just had so much more presence. Also there is not the transportation issues as with 1/4 scale.
Another consideration is power plant. How about electric? I fly all electric so am a little prejudiced but there are lots of positive aspects. Instead of adding weight to balance just move the battery pack. At this size 12 to 16 cells should work. The two big benefits are cleanliness and scale prop size. No messy fuel residue to clean off that open structure is one of the reasons I got into electrics 10 years ago. Also I am able to fly with scale props on my WWI birds. How about a scale 4 bladed one? By varying the number of cells and gear ratios you can get a combo which will allow it. As for flight speed this is going to be a slow one so a prop speed of 4000 to 6000 rpm will be very suitable. With today's lithium cells and brushless motors tis is very do-able. There is a group of guys in British Columbia who are flying very large WWI electrics on fairly low power systems with very light airframes.
Pipe
Why re-make a classic? Leave it be and work up a new one. The guy who has done the Lord of the Rings movies (Jackson?) is a WWI enthusiast. He has the pull and money to make it happen so lets put the bug in his ear. Although I am Canadian and he is a Kiwi I have to admit a great interest in an American pilot whose story has all the makings of a great movie (if the 'producers' can be strong armed into not touching it up) and that is Frank Luke the Arizona balloon buster.
Stephen
Chevelle
How about 1/5th scale if you think 1/6th may be limiting? I though 1/6 was THE scale until a friend sold me his 1/5th scale Fokker D.VIII. He had it beside his 1/6 VK Dr.I and it just had so much more presence. Also there is not the transportation issues as with 1/4 scale.
Another consideration is power plant. How about electric? I fly all electric so am a little prejudiced but there are lots of positive aspects. Instead of adding weight to balance just move the battery pack. At this size 12 to 16 cells should work. The two big benefits are cleanliness and scale prop size. No messy fuel residue to clean off that open structure is one of the reasons I got into electrics 10 years ago. Also I am able to fly with scale props on my WWI birds. How about a scale 4 bladed one? By varying the number of cells and gear ratios you can get a combo which will allow it. As for flight speed this is going to be a slow one so a prop speed of 4000 to 6000 rpm will be very suitable. With today's lithium cells and brushless motors tis is very do-able. There is a group of guys in British Columbia who are flying very large WWI electrics on fairly low power systems with very light airframes.
Pipe
Why re-make a classic? Leave it be and work up a new one. The guy who has done the Lord of the Rings movies (Jackson?) is a WWI enthusiast. He has the pull and money to make it happen so lets put the bug in his ear. Although I am Canadian and he is a Kiwi I have to admit a great interest in an American pilot whose story has all the makings of a great movie (if the 'producers' can be strong armed into not touching it up) and that is Frank Luke the Arizona balloon buster.
Stephen
11-30-2003, 04:37 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Dear Madman:
The PIPE Here yet again...and I DID say that "remake idea" for TMM WAS just a "daydream" of mine...that's all!(Just "dreaming "again, but perhaps a remake of "The Blue Max" might be an even better idea?)
The one FIFTH scale idea IS an appealing one...DGA Designs, at http://www.dgadesigns.com/pages/779905/index.htm, DOES have a one fifth scale FULL BODY pilot figure kit...that builds up into something that can be as light as three ounces!
The "3 Sea Bees" firm at http://www.3seabees.com/planes.html ALSO has a MONSTER hangar full of all SORTS of one fifth scale, 'earlier era' aircraft in ARF and ARC forms available...and I'd bet the Pioneer planes in that selection, like the Antoinette VII, Blackburn Monoplane, Blériot XI and even the Wright Flyer I itself would be GREAT candidates for electric RC power! (I've got an electric conversion in mind for the Proctor Antic Bipe, for a great practice plane to fly right from SUNRISE at my club's field, which allows electric RC flying BEFORE their 7:30 am "fueled engine aircraft ONLY" morning flight limit!)
I still prefer to actually design, BUILD and fly my Scale aircraft, though, right from the beginning...but the 3 Sea Bees ARF/ARC aircraft DO give those who might find building up a Pioneer Era aircraft from plans a bit tiresome, a real choice they can enjoy as well.
Still hoping for wing warping for your Avro Triplane, Chevelle...even if it's in a "more developed" version you might think about building later!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
The PIPE Here yet again...and I DID say that "remake idea" for TMM WAS just a "daydream" of mine...that's all!(Just "dreaming "again, but perhaps a remake of "The Blue Max" might be an even better idea?)
The one FIFTH scale idea IS an appealing one...DGA Designs, at http://www.dgadesigns.com/pages/779905/index.htm, DOES have a one fifth scale FULL BODY pilot figure kit...that builds up into something that can be as light as three ounces!
The "3 Sea Bees" firm at http://www.3seabees.com/planes.html ALSO has a MONSTER hangar full of all SORTS of one fifth scale, 'earlier era' aircraft in ARF and ARC forms available...and I'd bet the Pioneer planes in that selection, like the Antoinette VII, Blackburn Monoplane, Blériot XI and even the Wright Flyer I itself would be GREAT candidates for electric RC power! (I've got an electric conversion in mind for the Proctor Antic Bipe, for a great practice plane to fly right from SUNRISE at my club's field, which allows electric RC flying BEFORE their 7:30 am "fueled engine aircraft ONLY" morning flight limit!)
I still prefer to actually design, BUILD and fly my Scale aircraft, though, right from the beginning...but the 3 Sea Bees ARF/ARC aircraft DO give those who might find building up a Pioneer Era aircraft from plans a bit tiresome, a real choice they can enjoy as well.
Still hoping for wing warping for your Avro Triplane, Chevelle...even if it's in a "more developed" version you might think about building later!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
11-30-2003, 05:25 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
OK. Madman. Let's see where this lead us. At least for now, I'll leave it a 1/6 but let's see if electric is even an option. I'll take your estimate of the cells. Now all I need to know is how big a cell is. Post it if you know. I'll look around the net for dimensions as well. Just the dimensions for one cell. I'll configure them so they work best.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions.
11-30-2003, 05:45 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Pipe
The 3SeaBees ARFs are NOT electric frinedly. I have the SPAD XIII and even though I have done some lightening it will never go electric. Anyone interested in an ARC SPAD?
I know how you feel trying to re-capture the joy of the originals, or correct the mistakes, but I would prefer Hollywood get some imagination and balls and try something new. If you want a synopsis of the Luke story just ask. It is really suitable, except for the ending.
Chevelle
One 'standard' sub C is about 2" long and 1 inch in diameter. They weigh 2 oz each. An Astro 15 with superbox (as in my Dr.I) weighs about 11 oz and on 12 cells spins a 16x12 at 4300 rpm.
Stephen
The 3SeaBees ARFs are NOT electric frinedly. I have the SPAD XIII and even though I have done some lightening it will never go electric. Anyone interested in an ARC SPAD?
I know how you feel trying to re-capture the joy of the originals, or correct the mistakes, but I would prefer Hollywood get some imagination and balls and try something new. If you want a synopsis of the Luke story just ask. It is really suitable, except for the ending.
Chevelle
One 'standard' sub C is about 2" long and 1 inch in diameter. They weigh 2 oz each. An Astro 15 with superbox (as in my Dr.I) weighs about 11 oz and on 12 cells spins a 16x12 at 4300 rpm.
Stephen
11-30-2003, 06:05 PM
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A Brisfit WAS done from them with electric...
Dear Madman:
The PIPE Here again...and I HAVE seen a Bristol Fighter from 3SeaBees (the one at http://www.3seabees.com/bristol/bristol.html ) at one of the Rhinebeck RC meets done up for Electric power...and even though I did NOT see it flying myself, the people who DID see it DID think it seemed to fly rather well...!
Maybe that's the BEST one for Electric conversion in their lineup...it IS a rather sizeable aircraft, even in 1/5th scale!
I still like the Antic Bipe electric conversion idea, though...something to practice antique-style flying that CAN be flown REALLY early!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
The PIPE Here again...and I HAVE seen a Bristol Fighter from 3SeaBees (the one at http://www.3seabees.com/bristol/bristol.html ) at one of the Rhinebeck RC meets done up for Electric power...and even though I did NOT see it flying myself, the people who DID see it DID think it seemed to fly rather well...!
Maybe that's the BEST one for Electric conversion in their lineup...it IS a rather sizeable aircraft, even in 1/5th scale!
I still like the Antic Bipe electric conversion idea, though...something to practice antique-style flying that CAN be flown REALLY early!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
11-30-2003, 07:52 PM
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RE: A Brisfit WAS done from them with electric...
Well I'll be damned!
According the Hobby Lobby website, 600mAh NiCds are 1in x 5/8. I fit 15 in the configuration of a set of billiard balls. Check out the attached picture. (The left fuselage skin and one former were removed for clarity.) And the really neat thing about it is that I can locate then exactly where the CG is supposed to be!!
Well now you've opened Pandora's box Madman. Since you are the electric guru (at least in this thread), what motor, gear box and prop should I use? How often does one have to remove the batteries? It will be a real b*tch to do it unless I plan for it.
About Frank Luke's story. The ending? Why it's a great ending. I shootout to the death in a church graveyard? Why it'll make Saving Private Ryan look like a walk in the park
Thanks for the company guys.
According the Hobby Lobby website, 600mAh NiCds are 1in x 5/8. I fit 15 in the configuration of a set of billiard balls. Check out the attached picture. (The left fuselage skin and one former were removed for clarity.) And the really neat thing about it is that I can locate then exactly where the CG is supposed to be!!
Well now you've opened Pandora's box Madman. Since you are the electric guru (at least in this thread), what motor, gear box and prop should I use? How often does one have to remove the batteries? It will be a real b*tch to do it unless I plan for it.
About Frank Luke's story. The ending? Why it's a great ending. I shootout to the death in a church graveyard? Why it'll make Saving Private Ryan look like a walk in the park
Thanks for the company guys.
11-30-2003, 09:08 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
<S!> Chevelle
as for the Saito 30, I think 9 ounces is a lot of fuel for it. I made an O.S. FS-20 4 stroke fly for 45 minutes on a 4 ounce tank. I was trying to push the milage on it. I would guess 8 ounces of fuel would easily give you 15 min+ of flying time, especially if you select the largest prop the engine can handle. I find my scale planes fly much nicer on larger props. The short props, at higher rpm, seem to 'tear up' the air and the plane isn't so smooth, plus the higher pitches tend to make the plane torque roll more on hard throttle up on a flyby. I'm using a 11x5 on a O.S. FS-40 surpass on an old Hobby Shack Tiger Moth and it flies with plenty of power. I broke it once and borrowed a 10-7 from a firend and what a difference it made. Every throttle up needed some rudder- you could see the plane yaw without it. I fly a Royal Bleriot with the old Enya 40-4C and it just won't realy fly hardly at all with anything less than a 12x5. Best is the 12x5W Rev Up prop I have (they don't make them like that anymore) Good thing is, you can't nose over a Bleriot if you try! That Saito 30 looks like a little brute with .5 hp listed. However, electric definately would be cleaner running- but you'll miss all those great blapity-blap sounds
von Hammer
as for the Saito 30, I think 9 ounces is a lot of fuel for it. I made an O.S. FS-20 4 stroke fly for 45 minutes on a 4 ounce tank. I was trying to push the milage on it. I would guess 8 ounces of fuel would easily give you 15 min+ of flying time, especially if you select the largest prop the engine can handle. I find my scale planes fly much nicer on larger props. The short props, at higher rpm, seem to 'tear up' the air and the plane isn't so smooth, plus the higher pitches tend to make the plane torque roll more on hard throttle up on a flyby. I'm using a 11x5 on a O.S. FS-40 surpass on an old Hobby Shack Tiger Moth and it flies with plenty of power. I broke it once and borrowed a 10-7 from a firend and what a difference it made. Every throttle up needed some rudder- you could see the plane yaw without it. I fly a Royal Bleriot with the old Enya 40-4C and it just won't realy fly hardly at all with anything less than a 12x5. Best is the 12x5W Rev Up prop I have (they don't make them like that anymore) Good thing is, you can't nose over a Bleriot if you try! That Saito 30 looks like a little brute with .5 hp listed. However, electric definately would be cleaner running- but you'll miss all those great blapity-blap sounds
von Hammer
11-30-2003, 09:18 PM
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RE: A Brisfit WAS done from them with electric...
Pipe
I too have seen the Brisfit. At the first NEAT fair in 2000. It didn't fly then either, although to be fair the conditions were better suited to high power faster sport models (like my 16 cell moose) which I flew a few times. There is also a large (200') hill right in front of the pilots line. I had no trouble putting in procedure turns well within the space but may others were quite 'freaked' by the hill (and its attendant trees) and either avoided flying, crashed into the trees or flew high above the hill. I have flown my D.VIII in similar (actually worse) conditions, but that is me.
There are numerous issues I have with the 3Seabees kit I have. It can be modified to work with glow OK but not electric. Perhaps its because I have an ARC I get to see how they are built. 'Nuff said.
As to the Luke storey I think it would be great. Who and where do we write?
Chevlle
The 600s are too small for this project. If you were thinking .020 Cox equivalent then that is the power available to you. I don't know lithiums well enough to make an accurate assesment (but am trying to learn from those who do know, not those who praise them to the sky or put them down but neither has ever worked with them). What I do know is power systems suitable for what we are discussing here. The size of cells I am mentioning (the standard SCRs electric guys refer to) are what will give you 7 to 15 minute flights. If you were to use the 600s you might get 5 minutes of head height staggering about.
The batteries can be left in the plane (NOT LITHIUMS) but now you have long times between flights (think one flight per hour). This may be acceptable if you take multiple planes at once or really like to chew the fat between flights but is too infrequent for me. I usually have two to four packs per plane. If you arrive at the field with them all charged you can have one ready in the plane, another on charge and one or two cooling after flight. With this combo you spend about as much time handling batteries between flight as you would handling a glow plane's needs. I like a little time between flights so it works for me. I can give you ideas on how to make them accessable for changing.
A few more points on electrics. Since there is little or no vibration you can build the airframes very light. Including about 1 lb for batteries we are still talking a 6 lb airplane all up weight. These planes are meant to fly not crash but when the weight goes down survival and ease of repairs goes up. Think free flight type structures, very suitable for our pioneer era planes. Another benefit is reliability. These planes last since they don't get fuel soaked, and every time the weather changes you don't have to re-tune that engine. Having said that no system is perfect and some of my problems turned out to be simple things like the battery pack pulling out the speed controller radio cord when installed. Talk about red faced after going on about reliable electrics!
Stephen
I too have seen the Brisfit. At the first NEAT fair in 2000. It didn't fly then either, although to be fair the conditions were better suited to high power faster sport models (like my 16 cell moose) which I flew a few times. There is also a large (200') hill right in front of the pilots line. I had no trouble putting in procedure turns well within the space but may others were quite 'freaked' by the hill (and its attendant trees) and either avoided flying, crashed into the trees or flew high above the hill. I have flown my D.VIII in similar (actually worse) conditions, but that is me.
There are numerous issues I have with the 3Seabees kit I have. It can be modified to work with glow OK but not electric. Perhaps its because I have an ARC I get to see how they are built. 'Nuff said.
As to the Luke storey I think it would be great. Who and where do we write?
Chevlle
The 600s are too small for this project. If you were thinking .020 Cox equivalent then that is the power available to you. I don't know lithiums well enough to make an accurate assesment (but am trying to learn from those who do know, not those who praise them to the sky or put them down but neither has ever worked with them). What I do know is power systems suitable for what we are discussing here. The size of cells I am mentioning (the standard SCRs electric guys refer to) are what will give you 7 to 15 minute flights. If you were to use the 600s you might get 5 minutes of head height staggering about.
The batteries can be left in the plane (NOT LITHIUMS) but now you have long times between flights (think one flight per hour). This may be acceptable if you take multiple planes at once or really like to chew the fat between flights but is too infrequent for me. I usually have two to four packs per plane. If you arrive at the field with them all charged you can have one ready in the plane, another on charge and one or two cooling after flight. With this combo you spend about as much time handling batteries between flight as you would handling a glow plane's needs. I like a little time between flights so it works for me. I can give you ideas on how to make them accessable for changing.
A few more points on electrics. Since there is little or no vibration you can build the airframes very light. Including about 1 lb for batteries we are still talking a 6 lb airplane all up weight. These planes are meant to fly not crash but when the weight goes down survival and ease of repairs goes up. Think free flight type structures, very suitable for our pioneer era planes. Another benefit is reliability. These planes last since they don't get fuel soaked, and every time the weather changes you don't have to re-tune that engine. Having said that no system is perfect and some of my problems turned out to be simple things like the battery pack pulling out the speed controller radio cord when installed. Talk about red faced after going on about reliable electrics!
Stephen
11-30-2003, 10:46 PM
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RE: A Brisfit WAS done from them with electric...
von Hammer
A agree with you that the larger props work better in these applications, however with electrics scale props are possible. I don't know what would be scale on the triplane but imagine between 16" and 20" depending on scale chosen.
Chevelle
I just looked at your equipment fit and and was wondering what size equipment was in there? You should be looking at HS81s or HS85s at most. Also a small (1 oz or less) receiver and a 270 mAh Rx pack. As for throttle servo call it a speed control and estimate under 1 oz (maybe .75 to .5 oz).
What is your projected construction? I don't have the Dr.I drawings in front of me but the fuselage longerons should be approx 1/8 sq spruce for 1/6th scale and 3/16 sq for 1/5th. Make the wing ribs from 1/16 contest weight sheet with 3/32 x 3/16 spruce main spars and 1/8 sq secondaries. This is just off the top of my head so don't hold me to it. Remember these planes are interconnected with bracing so each structure strengthens the others.
Stephen
A agree with you that the larger props work better in these applications, however with electrics scale props are possible. I don't know what would be scale on the triplane but imagine between 16" and 20" depending on scale chosen.
Chevelle
I just looked at your equipment fit and and was wondering what size equipment was in there? You should be looking at HS81s or HS85s at most. Also a small (1 oz or less) receiver and a 270 mAh Rx pack. As for throttle servo call it a speed control and estimate under 1 oz (maybe .75 to .5 oz).
What is your projected construction? I don't have the Dr.I drawings in front of me but the fuselage longerons should be approx 1/8 sq spruce for 1/6th scale and 3/16 sq for 1/5th. Make the wing ribs from 1/16 contest weight sheet with 3/32 x 3/16 spruce main spars and 1/8 sq secondaries. This is just off the top of my head so don't hold me to it. Remember these planes are interconnected with bracing so each structure strengthens the others.
Stephen
12-01-2003, 06:31 AM
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RE: A Brisfit WAS done from them with electric...
For estimating purposes, I just modeled the equipment that I have which is the standard stuff that came with my JR662. So that is the standard JR reciever, 600mAh battery, and 537 servos. I figure if they can fit, then anything smaller can.
As for construction, I'm sticking to scale where I can which still makes the thing pretty spindly. Even the real thing was kind of "soft." The longerons are 1/4in. The ribs are 1/8 but could be 3/32.
Yes, if I am able to move to electric then the throttle servo can go. I have some more battery research to do. I model number for a typical cell would help. There seems to be a lot to choose from. What I have found so far is that SCR batteries are about 7/8" in diameter and 1-1/4" to 1-5/8" long.
As for construction, I'm sticking to scale where I can which still makes the thing pretty spindly. Even the real thing was kind of "soft." The longerons are 1/4in. The ribs are 1/8 but could be 3/32.
Yes, if I am able to move to electric then the throttle servo can go. I have some more battery research to do. I model number for a typical cell would help. There seems to be a lot to choose from. What I have found so far is that SCR batteries are about 7/8" in diameter and 1-1/4" to 1-5/8" long.
12-04-2003, 02:15 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
here is a web page doe IanTurney-White large avro they explain the flight problems and a fix for them ( they did this in the movie also)
http://www.largemodelassociation.com...e_triplane.htm
http://www.largemodelassociation.com...e_triplane.htm
12-06-2003, 12:56 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
Here's another shot at an electric configuration. There are 12 1900mAh SRC batteries and an 8-30 cell speed controller. Better?
12-07-2003, 06:31 PM
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RE: AVRO Mk IV Triplane Project
I'm at that point now. I have to enter densities for all the parts. The CAD program will then spit out weight and CG. I am still getting information on different wood types. I'd rather not have to go through all the parts more than once. Yes, it's still at 1/6 scale.
12-09-2003, 10:13 AM
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First Weight Calculation
I've reached a milestone today. I have the first weight calculation. Here are the assumptions:
All balsa is medium grade @ 12 lbs/ft3
All fuselage sheeting is birch ply @ 48 lbs/ft3
All structural sticks are spruce @ 30 lbs/ft3
All brackets, hinges, etc. are brass @ 536 lbs/ft3
All rod stock is steel @ 490 lbs/ft3
The first weight came out at 3.9 lbs
This does not include covering, paint, wheels, motor, fuel, fuel tank, servos, batteries, receiver, support wires, or turn buckles.
I'd say I'm in pretty good shape. The final model should fall in under 5-1/2 lbs, yes?
All balsa is medium grade @ 12 lbs/ft3
All fuselage sheeting is birch ply @ 48 lbs/ft3
All structural sticks are spruce @ 30 lbs/ft3
All brackets, hinges, etc. are brass @ 536 lbs/ft3
All rod stock is steel @ 490 lbs/ft3
The first weight came out at 3.9 lbs
This does not include covering, paint, wheels, motor, fuel, fuel tank, servos, batteries, receiver, support wires, or turn buckles.
I'd say I'm in pretty good shape. The final model should fall in under 5-1/2 lbs, yes?
12-10-2003, 11:00 PM
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RE: First Weight Calculation
I have one of those little plastic kits done about ten-twenty years ago.
One thing of interest to me, but maybe you have solved it, however the triangular fuselage looks as though it may lead to some torsional problems. This could lead to the enpanage twisting and fouling up control.
On the real one they rigged it with wire to become stiff.
How do you plan on such? I wonder if thicker wood would solve the problem.
Wm.
One thing of interest to me, but maybe you have solved it, however the triangular fuselage looks as though it may lead to some torsional problems. This could lead to the enpanage twisting and fouling up control.
On the real one they rigged it with wire to become stiff.
How do you plan on such? I wonder if thicker wood would solve the problem.
Wm.