abufletcher

I'm not sure I'd call the Spievack model an "all out" scale model -- more like a well-done sports scale model. All out scale probaby requires doing a bit heavier. I'd think that 10 lbs. on a biplane with a 63" wingspan should be OK. Obviously lighter would be nicer but I wouldn't be willing to settle for balsa MG's or an empty cockpit to get that lighter model.

BTW, I just saw some stunning pix of a 1/4 scale Pfalz DIII being built by Dan Schmidt. I sure hope he decides to post them here! (It's easy. Just click on Reply then look for "Click here to upload" then just browse for your images).

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Zoomie.. I was thinking about you the other nite as I made holes in 1/4 wide X 38 long covering to accept the eyelets that go on my SE5a. Since you're making rib tape.. how about pre-perforated strip coverings that can be ironed down for the WWI planes that use lacing to attach the fabric sides to the top? These can be with or with out the little brass eyelets. Is it doable as a mass produced product? I thought about this after I made my third one (I need 4, one for the top and one for the mating bottom piece). In my case, each strip one consists of approx 77 holes each X 4 (each punched by hand!). My particular ones are 1/2 on center and centered on the 1/4 inch strip. Just wondering here..

Abu.. I was thinking about you last nite as I woke at 3 am with a tooth ache lol!! I was reflecting on your desire for scale construction of the pfalz and it occurred to me that one of the problems is that the Materials do not scale down as readily as the plans do. By this I mean that issues such as flexibility, strength, density, mass, etc don't scale down in a liner fashion. So, sometimes it may be better to go a different route than the full scale practice to solve these problems.. Just thinking in the middle of the nite!.

abufletcher

Bob, somewhere way deep down I know this. It is really just my inexperience speaking. Think of it as an ideal rather than as as a concrete plan. Something like "unless there's a reason not to, do it scale." My fascination with trying the wickelrumpf technique is more out of curiousity than anything else. And stuck as I am in Japan at the moment, experimentation is about all I can really do.

Dan Schmidt seems to have done a fantastic job on a pretty darn scale looking fuse (sheeted with 1/64 ply and then glassed). Even if no one at the field ever gets to see it, it will be a thing of beauty and inspiration to other builders! I also like the more elegant idea of building the wing-roots right into the fuse instead of going the putty fillet route.

Dan, please post those stunning construction photos!

Oh, and Bob, when I was doing the EIII I also thought about the idea of actually stretching fabric around the frame as on the original but the thought of making that many scale (and functional) eyelets quickly cured me of that idea! I thought about all kinds of ways to replicate the look but in the end I just drew a line with a Sharpie down the middle and placed white painted staples across it. To give things a bit more depth and realism I drew little half circles around the ends of the staples to simulate eyelets and gave the whole thing a "dirty" wash of brown-black. Back when I was making Guillow's WWI models I used to sew the stitching onto a piece of silkspan and then dope than onto the surface. Looked OK on a 24" model but wouldn't stand up to larger scale.

zoomzoooie

Those pesky little eyelet and cinches have been on my mind for a long time.
There are two ways of doing them. One is an all out scale eyelet punched into the fabric and cinched for true scale. The other is a simulated eyelet with a cinch pattern.

Such a simple looking thing has major complications. Even if you the builder, were to hand stitch them on to fabric, there will be stitching on the back side which will raise it, then it will not look good.

BobH,
Are the preforated strips you are doing for simulation that is ironed on in position? How do you plan on doing the eyelets and cinch lines? The covering will show thru the preforation holes?

An iron preforated strip without eyelets is doable. For something that is very scale looking, the cinch lines will have to be incorporated in some manner along with the eyelets. Finding scale size eyelets may be difficult.
So for now it's on the back burner.

Abufletcher,
That's good idea. It must look very good at a distance. Is that a scale EIII cinch line pattern or is it supposed to zigzag?

ZZ

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Zoomie. here is what I discovered in looking at the full scale construction technique used by the French restorers. It appears as though the top of the fuse is covered to the top longeron, all the way to the Fuse tail end. Added to this is a strip of material that has the eyelets in it. This strip is (I assume) doped into place on the Fuse fabric edge and hangs down by the width of this strip. The mating strip with eyelets is doped to the Fuse Side fabric. These two strips are joined via Chord. Now what I have done is the same thing in miniture. I made the strips and added the holes for the eyelets via a 1/16 hole punch made fot that type of thing. I have eyelets from Mick Reeves which are approx the proper size. I will add each one and peen them from the rear to keep them in place. I will join the strips via twine BEFORE I anchor the side to the Bottom Longeron. This gives me the ability to lace and not use the curved needle that would be required other wise. Take a look at this picture, hopefully it will show what I'm talking about.

Abu, take a look at how the French did it.. its a lot easier method I think.

abufletcher

I just became aware of a 1/4 scale Pfalz DIII being built by Dan Schmidt and it looks like it's going to be a REAL BEAUTY!!! Here are a couple of photos I'm postng on Dan's behalf. Enjoy!

He says it was based on a combination of Tom's plans and the Wylam plans. Both the wing and fuse construction are pretty darn close to scale!

abufletcher

ZZ, this is the way the seam and stitching is on the San Diego replica I was modeling (based on photos from the Fokker Team Schorndorf EIII CD). From what I've read the covering on the EIII could get pretty crude and rough (and loose) after it had been removed a couple of times for maintainance. Sort of like trying to stretch a stiff canvas tent over a jungle jim! I the photos I have you can actually see a space between the sides of the covering.

Bob, the stitching in your photo almost looks like rib stitching, i.e. very tight and doped over. I'd be tempted to use the line of glue or bit of thread technique if you don't plan to go all out with authentic eyelets. Though I find it hard to imagine that even the M.R. eyelets would be scale size. I wonder about making a glue "rivet" and then drilling a hole in it to replicate the eyelets.

Luckily I won't have to worry about this on the Pfalz!

zoomzoooie

BobH, I see how you want to do it now, following full scale. I at first thought you wanted a strip with both sides of the holes and the lace that you would lay on your existing covering.

I would think the full scale strips are folded back under and doped both front and back to the covering and the eyelets placed. I could see this doable with a source of scale size rivets.
I will give this some thought.

Ya! Dan's the man! That sure looks nice. Abufletcher, where did you come across his build? What other sources did he use? Funny how it make your mouth water...Now I want to get started! lol.

Yes please send me some good detailed shots of the EIII. I will have to start collecting resources to cover all types of lacing patterns used. In the mean time I think your glue and drill idea is a good one.

ZZ

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Abu. that looks excellent! Very much like the Proctor Albatross in fact.

Zoomie. I'm posting a picture of one of the strips that I made. I'm, pretty sure that there the thinner strip is on top of the wider strip. These two make for a doubled fabric layer. The eyelets are then put through both layers and made fast. Since (at least in the case of this SE5a) the fabric is already on the fuse top I think the strip is made just as I described and doped in place. On my strip photograph, the white arrow points to the thinner top piece of fabric and the blue arrow to the wider, under piece. The top piece is ironed onto the other piece and both are pierced. Today at work I took two flat aluminum strips of about 5/8 wide, sandwiched them together and used a Vertical Mill to drill the 1/16 inch holes evenly spaced at 1/2 inch. Now.. armed with that I can put the fabric between both aluminum pieces and poke through the fabric using a hot piano wire and everything will be aligned perfectly!...just some food for thought!
The second picture is of the full scale showing the covering on the top and bottom of the fuse onlyattached to the longerons.

abufletcher

ZZ, Dan's apparently new to RCU but obviously a very experienced builder! He saw this thread and sent me an email with the picks. I expect he'll join our conversation shortly so tell us a bit more about his Pfalz and hopefully post some more photos. I think he's at the stage of rigging up the flying surfaces.

This thead has served just the purpose I had hoped it would: To bring together all the people interested in the Pfalz and all the divergent bits of information.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Abu, that's what is great about the net. you can communicate with lots of people with great ideas and information! How cool is that..!

The PIPE

Dear Abufletcher:

The PIPE Here yet AGAIN...and I've got the Datafile on the much later Pfalz D XII aircraft, for future RC CAD plan drawing on DesignCAD 3000 myself!

Seeing Tom Polapink (the WW I AERO Models column editor) posting on this thread is something I'm VERY glad to see...now I've GOT to get back to CAD-ding up my RC Giant Bristol Scout C drawings here at home, as he's inspired me once again...

That Dan Schmidt Pfalz looks like a "KNOCKOUT-realistic" Pfalz D III so far...now, if only the Saito FA-220 Zeus single cylinder FOUR stroke engine becomes available here in North America, THAT "mill" would be THE IDEAL powerplant for THAT one...!

The ideas you've been bantering about here on RCU for the lacing will ALSO be of great help to me in the future, on a number of subjects I've got milling around on my CAD screen...among them, the Fokker M.5K/MG [E.5/15 of Kurt Wintgens], Sopwith Dolphin [C4159 of long-ago fellow pipe-fan Arthur Wigers], and even the Bristol Scout C [No.1611 of Lanoe Hawker]...which is MOST likely to be my first WW I RC Giant, perhaps even as early as this winter in starting in construction...have this lacing somewhere on their fuselage(s)...thanks again!

Now I HOPE you can eventually use all those wheel and TIRE making article pages I've sent you recently..."got the plaster ready yet" to make the molds LOLOLOL???

Still struggling to find the time to get my dear ol' Swizzler [Balsa USA Swizzle Stick 40] flying once more, with my mother's kitchen renovation about to get into high gear here at home...and please let me know if you've got any Pfalz D XII "documentational goodies" around you, of the magnitude you've already gathered on the much earlier D III aircraft!!!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

destrat

Hi guy's, my name is Dan, and it is good to be on board with all of you in the discussion of the Pfalz D-IIIa! I'm new to this type of format, so I have yet to figure this format out as far putting up pictures etc. Abufletcher posted a few of my pictures that I sent him of my 1/4 scale Pfalz project, and I thank him for that. Right now it is covered, and painted, and it is in the process of being rigged. I'll get some more pic's uploaded soon.

tommyp

My Feedback: (1)

Hi everybody,
Dan's Pfalz is a beauty...I'm anxious to see it completed with its attractive color scheme.

Here are a few pictures of Wally Batter's Pfalz fuselage under construction. It was built to this stage in 1981. Unfortunately Wally passed away. Does anyone know if this Pfalz was ever completed?
I threw in a picture of my 1/5 scale Holtzem Pfalz too.

Another Giant scale Pfalz D.IIIa that comes to mind is the one that appeared on the cover of Model Builder back in the early '80s (or maybe even the late'70s?), which flew at the QSAA meet in Las Vegas. Remember that one? I think I still have that magazine kicking around somewhere.

I'm off to Toledo for the weekend, so I'm getting a vacation from my computer. Have a nice weekend.
Tommy P.

tommyp

My Feedback: (1)

Whoops...I forgot to mention that Wally's Pfalz and an article on how he built the fuselage appeared in the April 1981 issue of WWI Aero (#84). He used blue styrofoam between the stringers and formers to give the fuselage some shape, then he used "Hot Stuff" cyano. to glue the strips in place. Afterwards the foam was removed.

Maybe enough time has passed since it was first published that WWI Aero can run this article again.

TP

abufletcher

Tom, I'd be real curious to know how he got the foam out AFTER he covered the fuse with the ply! Actually, the more I think about it the less appealing the idea seems. It looks like getting the strips of ply to set perfectly adjacent to each other is a major challenge. Still, I think I'm mock up a half fuse and experiment to see what sort of problems arise and what sort of strength I'd get.

zoomzoooie

Hey Dan welcome aboard!
Your Pflaz is absolutely great! I love to see scale detail like that from a scratch built project.
Can't wait to see more photo's. I'd like to know what your Pfalz weighs when ready. What size engine are you using?

It appears that Wally placed the ply strips 8 across at the same time. I don't think this would be the best way to keep the joints tight between strips, although it is not as critical with the first layer. Once the second layer is glue on it will tie the whole structure together. Great shots showing his work though. I think this is very doable in a 1/4 scale bird.

Foam can be removed with solvents but I don't think that would be good for the balsa or ply and not to mention the glue. I would think that the foam would not be removed, except maybe around the cockpit and engine area where you can get at it to pull it out. You could use this foam method with the fuselage in halves as in full size. That way you can pull the foam out and clean up the inside before gluing the halves together.

BobH,
About your SE5 lacing. Is the upper lacing wholes actually thru the upper wood frame? If it does, this is surprising! I would never have thought they would do that. It weakens the structure. If not, how is the wood strip with holes in your photo used? I don't really see how this works.

ZZ

Trev

That Pfalz is absolutely stunning!! If I didn't know better I'd think it was a proctor kit.

I'm particularly impressed by the scale cockpit and how the radio gear is neatly tucked away out of sight

If its not too much trouble, what are the specs of this model (span, weight etc..) I'd be curious as to the wing loading on such a super-scale project.
Would be great to see more pics of it.

cheers,

Trev

destrat

Bear with me you guy's, I'm trying to give you a couple more shots of my Pfalz, but I'm having trouble uploading the photo's. Boy I never have had so much attention to any one of my airplanes, I'll keep trying, I'm all ears to any help in this matter

zoomzoooie

Dan, to be able to upload photos, click on the "Post Reply" button at the lower left of the last message window. This will add the image upload option below your reply message window. Images have to be 3000kb or less. Browse your PC to locate the image to upload. Once the image has been uploaded you will get an OK. You can upload more images or complete the upload.

ZZ

destrat

Finally I think that I got some Pfalz pictures uploaded, we'll see. If it works, thanks for your help guy's.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Thats a handsome airplane! thank you for sharing it. Do you have plans for it and are they available?

Abu, I ran into TommyP at Toledo and we chatted a bit about this thread. Was great talking to him. Sorry you wern't there to join in!..

abufletcher

Dan, that's spectacular. You really ought to get some ground level shots of it. What's the "all up" weight and how did you do the finishing?

Bob, I was in San Antonio all weekend for a professional conference and Toledo's a bit far from Southern Cal (and even San Antonio) anyway!

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Abu, maybe NEXT YEAR.. Or.. Dayton this Sept for the Dawn Patrol Fly in?

destrat

BobH, and Abu:

The basic plans that I started with were Tom Polapink's. Although Tom at that time didn't offer 1/4 scale prints, Jamie at Arizona Modell Aircraft offered them. I used those along with the Wylam drawings, and photo's from the Pfalz Aircraft book by Jack Herris, and Windsock Datafiles. The finish is a combination of exterior latex house paint on the fuselage, and tail. The wings were pre-printed linen fabric as per prototype with clear nitrate/butyrate dope brushed on.
Yeah I'll have to try and get some better shots, like you said at ground level, would look more realistic, next time.