Thanks Iron Eagel, It took me a few reads to figure it out but I finally got your idea. My choice for doing the bearing at the rear was designed with the tools on hand. I have access to a drill press but not in my work shop ( if you see Santa around tip him off for me). I used a brass tube with brass straps soldered to it and attached to the fuselage by screws.
I had misgivings about doing the elevator seperately at first which is why I designed it as one piece. Later I talked to a guy who had a DR1 with seperate elevators and he told me that the seperate elevators saved the aircraft when he lost one side in a midair. At this point I think the best design is to do seperate elevators with the hinge meeting in the middle of the bearing and use a smaller tube inside to reduce the vibration and flex.
If I were to tweek this design my goals would be to make it a little less flexable, and maintain or add a little more fidelity to the scale appearence. Right now its not broken so I won't fix it but if I had a reasonably safe way to add control horns right to the carbon fiber spar I might tear it down over the winter. Any Ideas?

If Caffeen Man said it is ok trust him.
As far as Santa, I have found that tool catalogs left out on the coffee table or what not, when left at the right time of year, with an item circled on them, somtimes are forwarded to Santa by mysterious means, and appear under the tree Christmas. Now I do not guarantee this to be a sure fire means of comunication by any means, but it has worked on occasion for me.

As far as the control horns I do have an idea.
Using a strip of carbon fiber stock say 1/2" thick around an inch long and 1/16 to a 1/8" thick. Drill a hole to match your diameter of your rod or tube stock, centered 3/8 of an inch from the side and one end. Leaving 1/8 of and inch space above this hole from the backside cut a wedge of material that resembles the normal taper of a control horn. Drill the material with holes inline with the center of the tube, as you would have in a normal horn. Use a file make a notch of 1/32" in the control horn you have made, where the rod will pas through the control horn. Now score a grove to match this on the outside of your tube so you can you a short piece of 1/16 carbon fiber rod stock to fit in the notches you have made to act as a key to prevent the rod form turning in the hole in the horn. Apply epoxy to the rod insert the key and slide you horn into position. Now wrap both rod next to the horn with carbon fiber thread embedding the thread into the wet resin. Cross over the horn from side to side several times as you wrap the tube/horn joint with the thread. Wipe as mush of the excess resin away as you can then let it cure. The horn will now be part of the tube you will not have to worry about it spinning on the tube. I have been told that carbon fiber can be machined in a similar fashion to steel so the holes in the horn for your controls to attach should not be an issue. And where carbon fiber works well under compression I would say it should hold up fairly well. Note: if you would like to use pull /pull types of controls this would be easily adapted for that by just extending the material both above and below the tube for the other horn. You can keep all of the centers lined up and totally eliminate the possibility of any ackerman effect so your control action is totally symmetrical.

You asked…
LOL

One caution...
The coffee table thing. can get you yelled at also.....

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Feep - drawing looks very similar to what I have sketched out!

Carbon-in-carbon idea hit a snag. All the carbon tubes I saw today appear made accurate OUTSIDE only, so couldn't get a rod to be a consistent sliding fit inside. Makes solving your problem a bit less simple Feep sorry! Instead, I'm going to use ALUMINIUM for the tailplane tube and carbon tube or rod as the joiner/pivot. Now I know why we used to use this on the gliders!

The aluminium isn't carrying much load that way, and I'll still have carbon tube LE & TE's. Iron E's bearing idea has merit too - could even be made scalish, but I'm trying not to get carried away..... Otherwise I've got pretty much all the bits and pieces now, so work will commence pronto. BTW, I build slow so don't hold your breath for the "finished" shots!

Cheers,

Cam

Cam, If you use the aluminum for the hinge spar will you have something inside? By the way the tube that fits perfectly inside that 1/4'' tube is the one SR provides for the rudder. They will ship out a piece. Of course that's easy for me to say I live 3 hours away from SR. I just relized the monster I may have created with my suggestions. I will feel terrible if you go through this effort and something happens. so I have a stake in this if for nothing else than my own piece of mind. So please bear with me if I feel a little concern for YOUR build. Will you be able to get us some shots of your wing alterations? Your idea should work well. Its simple and that's what makes it a great idea.

Iron Eagle, I am studiing your idea for doing the control horns. The idea that the fibers cure and become part of the rod is what has me thinking about it plus the fact that I am not 100% comfortable with my own horns. Thanks

thanks Feep, and Iron E. My idea hit a snag - discovered carbon tubes are only accurate on the OUTSIDE - their inner surfaces are irregular so couldn't get a reliable sliding fit rod[:@]

Instead, I'm going to use an aluminium or brass (heavy) tube for the central "spar", and slide them onto a carbon rod joiner to suit. LE and TE will still be carbon, so no strength worries.

Feep - kinda kills my suggestion to you though - maybe Iron E.'s bearings would be worth a look - better to support the tubes as much as possible. Just avoid those 3D manoeuvres eh! Bearings could look kind of scalish too, esp. if you scallop out the fuz. corners...[8D]

Cheers,

Cam

I followed this thread, and another related one, regarding the SR Eindecker E1. I’ve been working on one too, and have had enough time during the holidays to nearly finish. I purchased the kit and the accessory kit from SR last April, after looking it over at Toledo. After receiving everything, I had a couple of questions, and emailed SR. They answered nearly immediately and very professionally. I’m a longtime modeler, and have built a number of kits over the years. In general, I found the SR E1 kit design, parts fit, and instructions to be among the best I’ve ever built. The fit of the fuse parts, especially around the servo tray, wing rods, stab mounting area, etc. was outstanding. I changed very little with the basic build, and followed the instructions pretty closely. I used nearly every piece of wood provided, which is unusual for me. Everything supplied was straight, usually the right density, etc. I used the SR supplied covering, graphics, and aluminum. All were first rate, and worked exactly as intended. I liked the use of carbon fiber tubes throughout. I starting building in July, and finished this week. I'm not the fastest builder, plus my work schedule limits the time available. It's a reasonably quick build though for the size and type of model.

Details: Final weight 17 lbs 2 ozs. Zenoah G-26 with CH Electronics CDI, APC 18-6 prop, stock muffler, Airtronics Stylus PCM radio, Hitec 605BB and MG servos, 1650mah NiMH 5 Cell 6V battery for flight pack, and 1100mah NiCad 4.8V on ignition, HD switches, Voltwatch monitor, B&B Specialties 16oz tank. The white and black paint is Krylon. Balanced exactly on the CG without any weight added. Engine tuning (it hasn't been run yet) and maiden flights will be some months away, after our usual Michigan winter.

These are the changes I made (that I can remember!):

- Changed to Robart Super hinge points, instead of the supplied CA hinges. While the supplied hinges are probably OK, I just don’t use CA hinges on giant scale models.

- Changed the cross-braces in the LG from 1/32 to 1/16 wire. I had it all built and soldered with the 1/32, but I just couldn't get them straight. I ended up cutting off the 1/32 and replacing with the 1/16. Looks much better.

- Added neoprene washers between the cowl and firewall. The thickness allowed the aluminum cowl to fit a little better because the circumference of the cowl is a bit larger than the firewall. Plus, I really didn't like the cowl directly contacting the aluminum tape on the fuse.

- Moved the flight pack switch to the fuse side, rather than in the hatch, to eliminate having to plug/unplug each time the hatch is removed. In hindsight, I should have put the switch under the wing on the fuse side, rather than above it. Would have looked better. The switch for the CDI is under the RH cheek cowl.

- Replaced the balsa hatch floor with liteply. This was because I didn’t want the one with the switches already cut-out, plus it was pretty soft balsa. Also, the liteply looks better painted.

- In order to adjust the pull-pull cables for the elevators and rudder, I added Sullivan metal clevises and Dubro 4-40 rigging couplers. I put them inside the fuse on the tiller bars. They’re a little harder to reach there, but looks better.

- I added Dubro 1/4 scale turnbuckles on the lower (flying) rigging wires – again for adjustment. You can see them in the pictures.

- I replaced the supplied aileron control horns with cut-down Dubro heavy duty horns. These are a little overkill for this model, but bolt through perfectly.

- I replaced the supplied servo mount screw type screws with button head screws on the cowl, rigging connections, hatch cover, LG, etc., because I think they look better.

- Replaced the supplied nylon landing gear straps with Dubro steel straps. I wasn't planning to, but during final assembly, one of the nylon straps broke pretty easily when tightening the screws. That hasn't happened to me before, but I'm playing it safe with the metal straps, since with this design, the LG also holds on the wings.

- The instructions don't say much about the supplied Williams Brothers machine gun. After assembly, I cut some of the bottom off, and set into a rectangular hole in the top hatch. I then glued in from the bottom. Note I mounted it a little off-center. This is how the real one is. I kept the finish simple. Spray painted black, dry-brushed some silver latex, and overcoated with Testors Dullcote.

- This isn't a change, but a suggestion. The instructions say for assembly to first hook up the lower flying rigging wires, and then attach the upper landing rigging wires. I have my wires pretty tight probably, and found this nearly impossible. Attaching the upper landing wires FIRST, and then attaching the lower flying wires works much better for me. Because of the geometry, a little less slack is necessary to get the lower wires attached, plus you're pulling on only two wires at a time instead of all four.

I've attached a few pictures. The background is a little cluttered in my basement shop, but you can get the idea. I'm still finishing the paint on the pilot, then it's really done. Let me know if any questions.

Thanks Ed - nice work.

A question: How many of the DuBro turnbuckles would you suggest for total adjustability? Also, did you drill freehand for the aileron horns? I'm using Robart hingepoints too, and was thinking of using a jig to get the angles right. Presume aim is to put hinge line right at top edge - will just leave small bumps at hinge locations on top surface.

Has it flown yet?

Hello Camdyson. I used four (4) turnbuckles -- one for each pair of wires on the lower rigging. You could add two more on the upper rigging to be more adjustable, but I'm going to start with only these four. To be totally adjustable, maybe you have one at each attach point on the wings? But I think this is overkill. Given the kind of wire, how the plane is built and rigged, I think the rigging wires are going to be pretty stable. I'm not expecting them to stretch or change too much. We'll see. More can be easily added if necessary.

Regarding the hinges, yes I made a little jig out of wood to get the distance below the top surface and angle just right so that the ailerons lined up properly. Since a lot of throw isn't required (3/4 inch each way as I recall) and a gap of 1/16 inch or so is very reasonable on a model of this type, you don't need the hinge point all the way to the top, leaving bumps as you suggest. Mine are slightly below the surface. I made it so that when the hole was squared out to accept the top of the hinge point, there was still about 1/16 inch of material to the top surface. (Hope this makes sense). I made up a little test piece, and adjusted the jig until it was about right, before drilling the actual parts.

No, it hasn't flown yet, as mentioned in my post. It's winter up here, and I'm definitely a fair weather flyer.

EdwardB - You built yours almost exactly as I built the one I finished in November. I used adjustable clevises on all the flying wires which probably is over-kill considering the cable is fairly heavy-duty. I doubt it will stretch much.

Regarding assembling the plane. I had the same experience. Attach the upper (landing) wires first then the flying wires.

I originally had the switch in the instrument panel, but that was a major pain. I covered the hole with a plaque giving me credit for the build and put the switch under the right wing.

I used large Dubro pinned hinges for the ailerons and 1/8" hinge points for the elevators. For the ailerons I made a simple jig.

You added nomenclature to the fuselage that I left off and your pilot is painted yet. Other than that both your plane and the one I built look identical.

Thanks guys. Yeah, I missed the "winter" bit there Ed -we fly all year round here so I forget you have a "building season". Flying all year round is tough you know, as you need to build faster than you crash...

I do get what you mean with the hinges and it seems logical, I'll do a test jig and make a drilling guide to suit. Also ordering some turnbuckles etc. I was thinking of putting on a Proctor pulley up top just for looks too, if I can somehow make it look like the cables actually go through it. (Saw them on Tower's site - look good and pretty cheap too).

Looks like I'll have to choose a different scheme to you guys eh! Plenty to choose from in my references so shouldn't be too hard.

Thanks again for the info guys.

Cheers,

Cam

Hey Ed, Nice work. But Baaad timing! It really sucks having a finnished model sitting around for 3 or 4 months waiting for a maiden flight. Were did you get the prop boss?
I used one of those props for a while but after an rpm check I discovered I was losing about 800 rpms because of the difference in the weight from a Zinger. 18x6 is what Zenoa recomends but I ended up using a 18x6-10 and I am very pleased with the performance.
I wasn't happy with the taxiing characteristics with the stock tailskid and I put a brass plate on the tip. Now I can taxi up and down the runway and hardly ever have to go chasing after it to retrive it from the tall grass. For looks a nail or rod inserted into the end of the tailskid would probably also do just as well. Good luck with you eindecker.

Cam, do you have any pics of your build? I'm working on wire wheels for my eindecker. If they come out ok I will redo it as "509". You should have yours up for a few months by the time the snow melts around here Going skiing Thursday. That should take my mind off itfor a while

G'day Feep.

That prop boss is same as the one I've got - SR offered it as one of their accessories. My build got a bit slowed by hordes of Christmas lodgers, plus been putting the finishing touches to my P47 (yes, nasty heavy metal)

Once I've sanded the wing I'll post shots of the mods to the flying wire mounts etc. Things should start getting back on track now (shipped the mob home today!)

Cheers,

Cam

Thanks Cam, I'm ordering one tomorrow. Hope you had a great holiday. I did but in the same breath, I'm glad they're over Look forward to seeing your progress.

Can't help myself... have to post one last picture of my completed SR Eindecker. I finally have the pilot painting completed. I pretty much followed the instructions on the Aces of Iron website. This is the second pilot I've painted using their instructions. The first, mounted in my Flair Tiger Moth, came out a little dark on the complexion (looks like he has a pretty bad sunburn or windburn) but this one is better. Now just need to wait for warmer weather for the maiden flights. Pretty hard to fly this one in all the white stuff that fell yesterday.

The pilot looks good Ed, So does the rest of the plane. Make sure that bungee is tight! Even an innocent bouce can cause a problem with the wheel and the front flying wire. Snow is not the real problem. WIND is!! I usually don't mind flying in most types of wind but this plane is like a kite. I had mine out a couple of weeks ago(all the snow melted and the temps were in the 60's) but the winds came in just as I was ready. I got it back in one piece but it wasn't a lot of fun. Barely had any forward airspeed into the wind and needed about 5 approaches to get it down. I know why we don't have any snow around here! I bought a new pair of skis and a snow blower this year!! Not kidding! I'm going out to by a kite this week. . Everyone in the nieghborhood will think I'm nuts when they see me putting down grass seed in February, but You can't fly in the rain either.

Nice work Ed! Sorry no updates from me lately - injured finger temporarily halted building. Also been trying to get my "other" project completed for an upcoming comp.
Hope to get back to the Eindecker in the next few weeks, and will post some progress shots then.

Cam

Well, thought I'd better resurrect this thread to add a happy ending - I've been dumping my progress shots in everyone else's threads during the build, so I'll finish it here!

I chickened out on the tailplane mods as hit a few technical snags - put it in the "too hard" basket for my first gasser/giant scale model.

Anyway, it's all finished, covered, wired up and balanced, and seems surprisingly light at "about" 7500g (bathroom scales, so don't quote me!) Only job left is to add a wing compass if I can ever find one, and the fuel cap behind cockpit. Most modifications mentioned elsewhere were incorporated, plus a bit of scale detailing, but a couple of tips:

1. I simply bound the front flying wire to the U/C strut with some tie-wrap after rigging, to prevent it getting grabbed by the tyre.

2. NEEDS DOWNTHRUST! Test flew today, and climbs like a homesick angel on throttle, then dives when reduced.

3. Listen to Feep re his mod to the landing wire mounting - I didn't...

4. My G26 with 18x6 Zinger wood is only turning at about 7000 rpm at the moment (after 2 tanks) although I've not really tried to tune it much yet. 7k on an 18x6 is JUST enough, wouldn't want any less.

That said, it looks and flies great - slow flypasts look awesome and landings are really easy and smooth. Ground handling is "scale"....

I've got to re-solder a dodgy sweat-joint in the U/C, and figure out why one wheel has decided to sieze up, then it's back out on patrol!

Cam

Congradulations! Any maiden where the model comes back home to fly again is a HUGE success! Get any flying shots?

Hi Don,

Yeah - the ol' heart was pumping a bit on the maiden![8D] No flying shots today - weather was bit overcast and generally dull, but will try to have the paparazzi ready next time out.

Looking forward to the Snipe's maiden?!

Cam

Hey Cam, congrats on your maiden. This is a fun plane to fly especially if you like to fly it scale. When there is no wind you can make your approaches by blipping the throttle and it floats right in. I have a video and will post it if I can ever figure it out.

Someone at the field suggested the solution you used for the front wires. It certainly would have been easier for me considering the mishaps I had since but some ideas just don't work for me and I think that one was because it wasn't scale. Duh ! The plane isn't scale to begin with>!!

My Eindecker is back on the work bench after a serious mishap. I lost it and it stalled about 8 feet off the ground and nosed in damaging the cowl and the starboard wing. Interestingly, The port wing was the one I built from new parts from SR and it is compleatly intact. After removine the covering I discovered some usefull info that may help those who build this plane.

1. When I got to the plane it looked pretty much intact except for a broken prop and bent cowl. The wings were still in place and the rigging was still attached on the upper pylon even with the unorthodox attachment setup I used.






2. The rigging attachment modifications were also mostly intact althought One of the wires had broken where it was crimped. I was amazed that after I removed the Covering I found the wing was almost compleatly distroyed. Although the carbor fiber spars were still intact I don't believe there was a single piece in the wing that wasn't damaged. This is not to imply that SR's design is flawed and I realize this is 1/4 scale and certainly not as resilient as a park flyer or 40 size trainer but It seems to me that the advantages of carbon fiber for spars is not completly without some minor drawbacks. Yes I know you are going to say " This is 1/4 scale, idiot, DON'T CRASH IT' but after looking at the damage from about 4 similar mishaps I'm seeing a pattern ( Yeah I know I can't fly ) were when the plane comes down and the wing tip impacts in any way the force of the impact gets tranfered all the way to the root rib and everthing along the the spar gives or breaks because the spar doesn't. Would a wooden spar simply break at some point and spare some damage to the rest of the wing ?

Interestingly enough I was mentioning to one of the guys at the field that I would like to use this plane to test wing warpping and now I will have that chance. I have already looked at Proctors scale drawings and I believe I will use the scale outline but keep the carbon fiber spars and shave some of the ribs aft of the rear spar so that they will warp easily. While I'm at it I may also add some undercamber to the whole wing.










@

[:@]

Hi again Feep,

Sorry to hear about your "oops"! Glad to see you're rebuilding though - remember they always fly better after rebuilds so it's worth it! One of the Aussie's at the last F4C world champs campaigned a 1/4 Eindecker with scale wing warping, and he reckons it flies fine - certainly looks good in the air by all accounts.

I've re-soldered the U/C and un-siezed the wheel on mine(weird - just looked like some grit got in there and jammed it solid, and I suspect my poor ground handling was because of this) so just a quick re-paint of the U/C and we're away. Next task will be to fit a smoke system. Will try to get some flying shots next nice day (winter here remember!)

Cheers,

Cam