Scale Jet
05-02-2006 | 03:03 AM
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From: Melb, AUSTRALIA
Scale Jet
Hi guys
I'm looking to build a Su-32. I havent looked but I really doubt that there are plans for it. I've got those 3 view drawings for it but from what I hear that won't be enought to make a scale model. Is it impossible to do an accurate model from just 3 view ones or is it just really difficult. I'm also thinking of perhaps doing a Mig-31 instead. Thats got a much simpler design... and I've actually got some pictures of the cross sections... here are links to what I have for teh Mig-31
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/mig31.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/mig31kr.html
and here are the links to the Su-32 (its the same things as the su-34 btw)
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su34.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su34aiv.html
Obviously it would be much easier to make the Mig... but I firstly prefer the su coz it looks cool... secondly its got the canards which gives it better slow flight characteristics and although I know you need to be a seasoned pilot for jets (which im not atm) I also know that its nice to have something thats easier to fly as well and 3rdly and perhaps most importantly, its got a cockpit with the area behind it into which I can put a camera (which I want to do) whereas the mig just has a bubble type canopy and getting a camera in there thats gonna give a decent view is gonna be kinda hard. But basically either way its gonna be my first truly scratch built model in the sense that I dont even have plans for it so the mig would obviously be the way to go but
1.) what do you guys reckon I should do based on the information I've provided and the diagrams that I have
2.) because I'm leaning towards the su-32 would it be possible to do a good job of it? and
3.) is it possible to send someone the model that I want to make and get them to make a kit or just the plans for me? i.e. some company or some hobby shop or something? or would I just need to ask around for that?
Any other comments/observations/tips/hits etc etc are welcome
I'm looking to build a Su-32. I havent looked but I really doubt that there are plans for it. I've got those 3 view drawings for it but from what I hear that won't be enought to make a scale model. Is it impossible to do an accurate model from just 3 view ones or is it just really difficult. I'm also thinking of perhaps doing a Mig-31 instead. Thats got a much simpler design... and I've actually got some pictures of the cross sections... here are links to what I have for teh Mig-31
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/mig31.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/mig31kr.html
and here are the links to the Su-32 (its the same things as the su-34 btw)
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su34.html
http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/su34aiv.html
Obviously it would be much easier to make the Mig... but I firstly prefer the su coz it looks cool... secondly its got the canards which gives it better slow flight characteristics and although I know you need to be a seasoned pilot for jets (which im not atm) I also know that its nice to have something thats easier to fly as well and 3rdly and perhaps most importantly, its got a cockpit with the area behind it into which I can put a camera (which I want to do) whereas the mig just has a bubble type canopy and getting a camera in there thats gonna give a decent view is gonna be kinda hard. But basically either way its gonna be my first truly scratch built model in the sense that I dont even have plans for it so the mig would obviously be the way to go but
1.) what do you guys reckon I should do based on the information I've provided and the diagrams that I have
2.) because I'm leaning towards the su-32 would it be possible to do a good job of it? and
3.) is it possible to send someone the model that I want to make and get them to make a kit or just the plans for me? i.e. some company or some hobby shop or something? or would I just need to ask around for that?
Any other comments/observations/tips/hits etc etc are welcome
05-02-2006 | 04:10 AM
#2
RE: Scale Jet
Hello Sheep,
oh boy, you've got a LOT of work ahead. I'm currently putting together a custom F-4 phantom project, and the amount of brainwork and also effort that goes into something like that is emmense (if you want it to be close to scale).
Also the SU will definetly not be a good first project. Aircraft layout forces a twin turbine design....complex and expensive. Single turbine will stick out the bottom, so that really is not an option in my eyes (but then again, thats just me...). Go along with something like a HotSpot, F-86, maybe even F-15 for starters. These are very good and gentle flyers, are readily available and all capable of going single engine.
Now to the project. Of course it is doable. You can either go all the way from scratch, or "kit bash" an existing plane. The SU-32/34 is very very based on the SU-27, so going in and starting with a Liebetrau or Aviation Design SU kit will probably the easiest way to go. I believe AD even has a SU-design with canards, so getting that one will have even fixed you up with that problem. Gear is readily available, and this design is flight tested, so you won't be as prone to bad suprises as in a full custom project.
Going fully scratch is a lot of work. Drawing up plans, coming up with ideas on how to get all the actuations and hinging in there, building a plug, making a mold and then laminating the prototype aircraft is a very long and rough road, but possible. If you want to go that way you should contact Harald Huf in Germany. He is doing a huge SU-27 atm, and he has all the formers and cross sections you will need for everything except the twin canopy section.
Concerning the question about "having someone make it": sure this is possible. Going over into the jets forum will probably get you a few guys who are willing to do it. But with all that is involved, be ready for a very very large pricetag. We are talking weeks on plans alone. Getting it together in "Kit form" will be a project for a very long winter, and i'm pretty sure noone will be doing that for free....
Just my 2 ct.
Regards
oh boy, you've got a LOT of work ahead. I'm currently putting together a custom F-4 phantom project, and the amount of brainwork and also effort that goes into something like that is emmense (if you want it to be close to scale).
Also the SU will definetly not be a good first project. Aircraft layout forces a twin turbine design....complex and expensive. Single turbine will stick out the bottom, so that really is not an option in my eyes (but then again, thats just me...). Go along with something like a HotSpot, F-86, maybe even F-15 for starters. These are very good and gentle flyers, are readily available and all capable of going single engine.
Now to the project. Of course it is doable. You can either go all the way from scratch, or "kit bash" an existing plane. The SU-32/34 is very very based on the SU-27, so going in and starting with a Liebetrau or Aviation Design SU kit will probably the easiest way to go. I believe AD even has a SU-design with canards, so getting that one will have even fixed you up with that problem. Gear is readily available, and this design is flight tested, so you won't be as prone to bad suprises as in a full custom project.
Going fully scratch is a lot of work. Drawing up plans, coming up with ideas on how to get all the actuations and hinging in there, building a plug, making a mold and then laminating the prototype aircraft is a very long and rough road, but possible. If you want to go that way you should contact Harald Huf in Germany. He is doing a huge SU-27 atm, and he has all the formers and cross sections you will need for everything except the twin canopy section.
Concerning the question about "having someone make it": sure this is possible. Going over into the jets forum will probably get you a few guys who are willing to do it. But with all that is involved, be ready for a very very large pricetag. We are talking weeks on plans alone. Getting it together in "Kit form" will be a project for a very long winter, and i'm pretty sure noone will be doing that for free....
Just my 2 ct.
Regards
05-02-2006 | 05:36 AM
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From: Melb, AUSTRALIA
RE: Scale Jet
Yer I know the 32 is basically the 27 cept for the front cockpit area and the rear gear... and kit bashing was what i was hoping to do in the sense that I at least could get the plans for a 27 and work from there... thats the only reason that I'm sorta keeping the 32 idea... coz its just the nose bit that needs to be redone... coz the canards can be done from a 35... i would imagine they would be very similar in dimensions and stuff... but I havent checked it out. The price isn't really an issue as I'm not really going to plant to finish it in like 2 weeks... this prject is gonna take years and since I can barely fly my prop model atm anyway I dont have the flight experience for a jet atm anyway... so theres no real rush. How would I be able to contact Harald Huf? Maybe he can shed some light as to the difficulties and maybe get some tips and stuff.
Oh and why is a twin turbine design complex? I don't see anything particularly difficult about it. Also what do you mean by building a mould? Do you mean the front fuselage assembly with the nose and the cockpit? Coz can't that just be done from in a skeleton way (i.e. with formers and all that?) And I dont know about the gear coz its a dual wheel design on this which was installed on the plane a direct result of its increased weight due to the new cabin and also the payload. So the gear would prob have to be custom made.
And yer the mig would be a simple build... just a box with wings lol... but hmm... maybe I should build that first... see how that goes... and then maybe someone wouldve tried the 32 by that stage and made plans for them or something. Coz I will at least get a feel for what its all about and then I'll also aquire 2 jets in the process. But yer I'm also a bit apprehensive about it coz the canards will give the su nicer flight characteristics and for someone without much experience with jets thats prob a good thing (apparently they make the plane virtually unstallable... now THATS COOL lol... (apparently they were initially used on navy sus and migs... coz the russian aircraft carriers dont have catapults so they need every bit of lift they can get)
But yer atm I want to see how far I can go with my preferred option of the su... coz it really is just the front bit that needs changing but I'm leaning more towards the mig now at least for my first build.
Either way I want these babies to be about 2.5meters in wingspan so they are gonna be big.
I'm probably going to buy a small practice jet anyway just to get a feel for flying jets as a transition from my prop plane which I can hardly call a slug... O.S. 46 FX in a 40 sized trainer... so it goes arrite... i crashed it on my first landing attempt coz it was going so fast that it was kinda all a blur... it prob wasnt going that fast but for the first landing attmept it was a bit of overkill im sorta regretting getting such a beast of an engine for my first plane... coz its a hot rod really... my instructor was very impressed with it... he loved that plane (while it worked) lol. I'm in the process of rebuilding it... Almost done...
Oh yer forgot to ask one important q... coz I dont have the engines or any of the fittings such as landing gear and all that stuff... would that complicate matters in terms of designing the plane? Coz obviously it would be nice to have everything like that already purchased but obviously i cant just pull 10grand from somewhere.
Oh and why is a twin turbine design complex? I don't see anything particularly difficult about it. Also what do you mean by building a mould? Do you mean the front fuselage assembly with the nose and the cockpit? Coz can't that just be done from in a skeleton way (i.e. with formers and all that?) And I dont know about the gear coz its a dual wheel design on this which was installed on the plane a direct result of its increased weight due to the new cabin and also the payload. So the gear would prob have to be custom made.
And yer the mig would be a simple build... just a box with wings lol... but hmm... maybe I should build that first... see how that goes... and then maybe someone wouldve tried the 32 by that stage and made plans for them or something. Coz I will at least get a feel for what its all about and then I'll also aquire 2 jets in the process. But yer I'm also a bit apprehensive about it coz the canards will give the su nicer flight characteristics and for someone without much experience with jets thats prob a good thing (apparently they make the plane virtually unstallable... now THATS COOL lol... (apparently they were initially used on navy sus and migs... coz the russian aircraft carriers dont have catapults so they need every bit of lift they can get)
But yer atm I want to see how far I can go with my preferred option of the su... coz it really is just the front bit that needs changing but I'm leaning more towards the mig now at least for my first build.
Either way I want these babies to be about 2.5meters in wingspan so they are gonna be big.
I'm probably going to buy a small practice jet anyway just to get a feel for flying jets as a transition from my prop plane which I can hardly call a slug... O.S. 46 FX in a 40 sized trainer... so it goes arrite... i crashed it on my first landing attempt coz it was going so fast that it was kinda all a blur... it prob wasnt going that fast but for the first landing attmept it was a bit of overkill im sorta regretting getting such a beast of an engine for my first plane... coz its a hot rod really... my instructor was very impressed with it... he loved that plane (while it worked) lol. I'm in the process of rebuilding it... Almost done...
Oh yer forgot to ask one important q... coz I dont have the engines or any of the fittings such as landing gear and all that stuff... would that complicate matters in terms of designing the plane? Coz obviously it would be nice to have everything like that already purchased but obviously i cant just pull 10grand from somewhere.
05-02-2006 | 06:35 AM
#5
RE: Scale Jet
Sheep, i think you should look around in the jet section of this forum some. Turbines are very very complex, and doubling the amount of engines gets you struggling with technology rather quickly. The'res just so much attached to get a reliable system.
That is also the main reason why most jets you see are single engine, and sometimes use bifurcated tailpipes (see F-15 e.g.).
Also have a look at the price. If you will be building 2,5 meters in Length you will be talking 2 x 120 type turbines, each one setting you back about $3000 plus. Figure another $1000 for Radio gear. And add another $1000 for a custom gear (e.G. HaWe or WaBo). Add it all up, add an airframe around.....
Read around in the jet section, and maybe visit a jet meet to see what is really involved with operation of these things, they are absolutely uncomparable to a glow engine.
And as to construction: check out http://www.su27.de/
that is the homeopage of Harald Huf. He explains step by step (with a lot of pictures) how he worked out the project from scratch....that will give you a pretty good impression of the work involved.
Because of the high stress put on turbine airframes, most designs will require a composite fuselage, so don't expect to be able to build it of wood.
I hope i didn't take too many of your illusions :-)
Regards
That is also the main reason why most jets you see are single engine, and sometimes use bifurcated tailpipes (see F-15 e.g.).
Also have a look at the price. If you will be building 2,5 meters in Length you will be talking 2 x 120 type turbines, each one setting you back about $3000 plus. Figure another $1000 for Radio gear. And add another $1000 for a custom gear (e.G. HaWe or WaBo). Add it all up, add an airframe around.....
Read around in the jet section, and maybe visit a jet meet to see what is really involved with operation of these things, they are absolutely uncomparable to a glow engine.
And as to construction: check out http://www.su27.de/
that is the homeopage of Harald Huf. He explains step by step (with a lot of pictures) how he worked out the project from scratch....that will give you a pretty good impression of the work involved.
Because of the high stress put on turbine airframes, most designs will require a composite fuselage, so don't expect to be able to build it of wood.
I hope i didn't take too many of your illusions :-)
Regards
05-02-2006 | 08:27 AM
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From: Melb, AUSTRALIA
RE: Scale Jet
bifurcated?
And yer I'm aware of prices and stuff which is probably the main reason for this project taking a long time coz obviously if i had money id just give someone 20grand and tell them to build me this model but alas. And yer I've seen the models they have fibre glass front fuselage bits and heaps of other moulded bits and pieces. But I'm also doing this for the fun of it i.e. the fun of the building process and as i said... im in no big rush. I've got some magazines with a couple fo these jets... (coz these mags are mainly for glo models) but there was this particular one that sorta sparked the interest in all this. And the other thing is that glo models are so light and they get thrown around a lot and thats not something I like because its unrealistic more than anything... thats y i want this thing to be BIG. But yer thanx for ur reply... u've given me a lot of fun times going through his 27 project... it is amazing. I think I'll probably make the mig 31 as my first one... a little smaller... and then have this in the background as a side project for long term... but definately gonna do it...
I've got some absolutely massive plans for it... I want to include a camera in the cockpit... and although its not gonna be as scale as a result of that... i.e. no scale cockpit with a pilot... i don't really care about that... I want to try and make a plane which I can fly by looking at the image of what the camera is displaying... ie have a tv screen in front of me and fly it through that... I reckon its doable... and then... i want rockets... that fire... (thats been done) i was initially thinking about making them controllable maybe with cameras even... (and even explosive ones) but thats sorta getting outrageous (especially due to fire hazard and all that) LOL... so I think ill bypass that... I'll try to make them controllable still so have a second person can control them... but i think if i do even that thats as far as ill go with that... ive got some ways of mounting a camera onto them... its just a question of wether a camera will stand up to the abuse... (not a massive camcorder... theres small cameras out there... ive found some that might be appropriate) and I want a bbgun machine gun to imulate the real 30cal i think they are... but i donno about that... it would be cool thou... It'll definately have lights thou
cant have a plane without lights... I've got some other ideas with the canards... but havent really reaserched them to know exactly what can and cant be done and how they work on the real ones. But basically thnx.
And yer I'm aware of prices and stuff which is probably the main reason for this project taking a long time coz obviously if i had money id just give someone 20grand and tell them to build me this model but alas. And yer I've seen the models they have fibre glass front fuselage bits and heaps of other moulded bits and pieces. But I'm also doing this for the fun of it i.e. the fun of the building process and as i said... im in no big rush. I've got some magazines with a couple fo these jets... (coz these mags are mainly for glo models) but there was this particular one that sorta sparked the interest in all this. And the other thing is that glo models are so light and they get thrown around a lot and thats not something I like because its unrealistic more than anything... thats y i want this thing to be BIG. But yer thanx for ur reply... u've given me a lot of fun times going through his 27 project... it is amazing. I think I'll probably make the mig 31 as my first one... a little smaller... and then have this in the background as a side project for long term... but definately gonna do it...
I've got some absolutely massive plans for it... I want to include a camera in the cockpit... and although its not gonna be as scale as a result of that... i.e. no scale cockpit with a pilot... i don't really care about that... I want to try and make a plane which I can fly by looking at the image of what the camera is displaying... ie have a tv screen in front of me and fly it through that... I reckon its doable... and then... i want rockets... that fire... (thats been done) i was initially thinking about making them controllable maybe with cameras even... (and even explosive ones) but thats sorta getting outrageous (especially due to fire hazard and all that) LOL... so I think ill bypass that... I'll try to make them controllable still so have a second person can control them... but i think if i do even that thats as far as ill go with that... ive got some ways of mounting a camera onto them... its just a question of wether a camera will stand up to the abuse... (not a massive camcorder... theres small cameras out there... ive found some that might be appropriate) and I want a bbgun machine gun to imulate the real 30cal i think they are... but i donno about that... it would be cool thou... It'll definately have lights thou
cant have a plane without lights... I've got some other ideas with the canards... but havent really reaserched them to know exactly what can and cant be done and how they work on the real ones. But basically thnx.
05-02-2006 | 09:08 AM
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From: Melb, AUSTRALIA
RE: Scale Jet
Hmm just flicked through that site... [X(] I really want to swear at the moment... because that is absolutely crazily amazing. I was not expecting that one bit or anything remotely close to that. Makes me want to jump in right now... lol... cept i dont have any of that gear so that might be a problem. But OMG that is just stunning work. Oh man I'm speechless... EVERYONE should visit that site!!! THNX Miniflyer... u've opened my eyes. And just when I think ive seen it all this comes along and BAM lol... nah its amazing.
Oh yer I get what bifurcated is now. But that wont work for the 32 coz of the way its built.
LOL with age... yerm im not 40 lol... so still have a childhood imagination... 19 ehem lol. I know I know explosive rockets and flying it through a tv screen i know i know... what was i thinking... but when u get this initial idea... all these other ideas come flooding in and in that moment u get all excited and no matter how outlandish or how unrealistic something might seem u still go for it... But think about it... how cool would it be to fly it through a camera... I donno I reckon its worth a shot at the very least. The only and major prob that I see with that is that you obviously don't really get the sense of what the plane is doing from the camera and also the fact that u cant see whats beneath you will be the other obvious issue so prob that idea isnt gonna work unless I think of something... and after going through that site I dont think thats going to be a realistic idea. So yeh scrap that lol. That also throws out the bb gun idea... coz theres no way that u could fire that thing accurately without seeing exactly where its flying. Ive seen guys do bomb drops over model boats... and thats what got all the cogs running... to go 1 better sorta thing... but yer...
And I'm guessing my name Atomic_Sheep doesnt help either
thats been around for a while I can tell u that... over 5 years now I think.
P.S. I originally planned making it 2.5 meter wingspan... but after seeing that... I've decided against that... under 2 meters will suffice... big enough. Really limiting me now Miniflyer
... nah thanks you braught me back to reality... I wouldve wasted a lot of time on stuff that would have been unfeasable (sadly 
).
Oh yer I get what bifurcated is now. But that wont work for the 32 coz of the way its built.
LOL with age... yerm im not 40 lol... so still have a childhood imagination... 19 ehem lol. I know I know explosive rockets and flying it through a tv screen i know i know... what was i thinking... but when u get this initial idea... all these other ideas come flooding in and in that moment u get all excited and no matter how outlandish or how unrealistic something might seem u still go for it... But think about it... how cool would it be to fly it through a camera... I donno I reckon its worth a shot at the very least. The only and major prob that I see with that is that you obviously don't really get the sense of what the plane is doing from the camera and also the fact that u cant see whats beneath you will be the other obvious issue so prob that idea isnt gonna work unless I think of something... and after going through that site I dont think thats going to be a realistic idea. So yeh scrap that lol. That also throws out the bb gun idea... coz theres no way that u could fire that thing accurately without seeing exactly where its flying. Ive seen guys do bomb drops over model boats... and thats what got all the cogs running... to go 1 better sorta thing... but yer...
And I'm guessing my name Atomic_Sheep doesnt help either
thats been around for a while I can tell u that... over 5 years now I think.P.S. I originally planned making it 2.5 meter wingspan... but after seeing that... I've decided against that... under 2 meters will suffice... big enough. Really limiting me now Miniflyer
... nah thanks you braught me back to reality... I wouldve wasted a lot of time on stuff that would have been unfeasable (sadly ).
05-24-2006 | 07:54 AM
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From: Hamilton, Scotland & La Roche Bernard, France
RE: Scale Jet
There's a guy called Bertella in Italy who does plans for the SU-27 and (I think) MIG31. If you're still looking PM me and I'll dig out his address.. Its in RC Jet Intl too.
Regards
Scott
Regards
Scott
