I am looking to find out more information on those fat, stubby Gee Bee racers. Some were red, and white, and I believe that others were red and yellow. Not the long slim ones, just the short stubby ones. They are so cool , and I would like maybe to build one some day. Would they be very differcult to fly ?

the Whzzz

Try this:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...15/index3.html

I know where you can get a good deal on a NIB Byron kit right now! email me if you are interested or look for the posts in here by Byronman.

Regards,

Hi Whzzz: Maybe I can help. The first "Stubby" Gee Bee was the model Z. Designed and built by the Granville brothers for the 1931 NATIONAL AIR RACES, which was scheduled for late August. Construction was started on June 23, 1931, and it was first flown on August 22, 1931. It was the yellow and black one as shown in my Avatar. To make a long story short, it blew away all of the competition at the 1931 races, and set a new benchmark for all to follow. In late November, and early December it set out to establish a new world speed record over a measured straight course. On December 5, 1931 at 1 PM, it shed it's right wing panel and rolled up into a spectacular fireball.
The Gee Bee Z, NR77V, was the only one ever built, and had a very short, but spectacular life.

Inspired by their success, the Granville brothers produced the models R-1, and R-2 over 1932, and 1933. These were the red and white versions. The R-1, NR 2100, was equipped with a big P&W 740 HP engine, and specifically designed for pylon racing. The R-2, NR 2101, used a smaller 530 HP engine, more streamlined cowl, larger fuel tanks, navagation lights, and was designed for cross country racing.

Now, which one were you interested it building ?

Let me know if I can help further.

Jim Lynch - Moderator >>> [email protected]

WoW ! What a great answer, and from the famous Gee Bee Jim himself too. I should have known that they would have the very best available at this site.

Well Jim, you have made me aware of the one that I want to build, and that would be the very first one to start this famous trend. And that would be the 1931 Gee Bee model Z, the yellow & black one, like in your logo.

And so, I now need to ask you what kits or plans might be available ? My shop is rather small, and I don't think that I could find room for giant scale, so maybe a mid side please.

Thanks Jim, you have been a fantastic help to me.

Oh; ...... how about flying them ?

Regards - the Whzzz

Whzzzer,
Adrian Page has developed what looks like a great Z kit. I've not heard of anyone having a problem with them. Go to www.adrianpage.com Happy flying, Pete

Adrian page makes a great kit for the Z and the R-2 version. The Byron R-2 kit is nice and Hostetler has a great set of plans for the R-2. The Hostetler and the Byron ones are basically the same plane, they were developed together, you just need to decide which you want, Byron with the fiberglassed parts, or Hostetler with all built up wood. The hostetler is supposed to be about a pound or two lighter too. Fiberglass Specialties has a great set of cowl, wheel pants and canopy for it, and I believe Iron Bay Models has some Byron fiberglass parts still.

Does anyone have any info about the wing flaps used on the R-2 in the last year that is flew, specifically the shape and positioning of them. I saw an interesting article about the redesigned wing on the R-2 its last year and that it had flaps to slow it down some for landing. Thought that might be an interesting addition to my Hostetler Gee Bee I will be starting soon.

Call the EAA they may have info about the flaps and positioning of them.
I have a book somewhere in my collection that shows some drawings of the flaps, it seems like they are split flaps that are double flapped (they are articulated so it creates a difference in the camber of the wing.

Henry Haffke has done several Gee Bee plans previously, though they aren't available in kit form. I don't have his email or address offhand, but sometimes he advertises his drawings in the classifieds of some of the magazines (RCM specifically)

go to www.eaa.org and they may be able to help you.

I'll look around for that book showing the flaps though.

--Paul

[email protected]

If you will go to the link I listed above , you can get a small amout of info about the 1933 R-2 w/ flaps. They put the engine from the '31 R-1 into it, added flaps, and changed the shape of the rudder.
Go down the left side , and click on the "Gee Bee Super Sportsters"link. There is a good 3-view showing the cowl and rudder shapes.
If you add flaps, you need to change the whole look of the aircraft. Might be a neet , and differant model.

As you can see from the above posts, there are many kits, and plans available. I am getting ready to start my 5th Gee Bee. I have built 2 Y's, 2 Z's, and now this will be my 3rd Z coming up.

But you asked about their flying qualities, so let me address that.
All of mine have flown great, but, ..... they can be an Eagle in the air, and a Bear on the ground ! You need two important things, and they are: 1) - Good experience with a hot low winger, and 2) - A paved runway ! At least I do anyway. At least the smaller versions, with their large wheel pants, seem to hang up and flip when flown off of grass. We are working with a very short fuselage, and high CG, because of the tall, close spaced landing gear. The problem is roll-out after you touchdown. During roll-out it tends to become the "Bear", and on pavement, it's a lot easier to control. And so ....... If you have both of these available to you, you can make a Go of it.

Kits & Plans: The above posts covered them pretty well, but let me add NWHobbytech.com, and that cute little ARF from Kyosho. Three of the 5 that I have built were from Henry Haffke plans, with fiber glass cowls & wheel pants available from Precision Fiberglass. Henrys plans are available through the AMA. Call, or write the AMA, and get their plans catalog.

Presently, I'm getting ready to start a 1/3rd scale, NWHobbytech Gee Bee "Z". But occasionally, I still bring out the little Kyosho "Z" ARF. It's cute as a bug, and flies and lands very well.

Stay in touch, and let me know if I can help further.

Jim Lynch - > [email protected]

Here is a question for the Gee Bee historians. Many original pictures that I have seen of the Z are in black and white. These are viewable at the site listed above when you select the Z. The pictures all appear to be before the "Springfield" graphics were added to the cowl. Heres the question. If you photograph a yellow and black object in B&W, the yellow looks like white. These photos show a darker color for the main fuse that does not look like it could be yellow. Is it possible that the Z originated with a red and black paint job?

I have one of the Adrian Page Z's and it is ready to cover. Since the release of that damn ARF (I had mine before), I feel like I need to make it a different color (but only if its scale). I'm a builder and I do not want a plane that Tom, Dick and Harry also have at my home field. I do not want to say "no its not the ARF!" to everyone that I meet. Originality is important to me.

I've got some trivia for you all, what color is the pinstriping on the origonal R1/R2 racers (either one)

--Paul

I know what you mean, Kregg. I bought a Page R2 kit and was excited about showing up at the field with something really different. When the ARF came out, I was kind of bummed -- I hadn't even started on my R2 yet. The R2 is .60-sized and will be red and white, so at least it won't be mistaken for an ARF (I hope!).

How did the construction of the Z go? The R2 looks pretty straight-forward. The only thing that scares me is bending a lot of 1/4" thick balsa for the front of the fuse....

Kregg, a lot of black and white photos from the 1930's and earlier were shot with orthochromatic film which showed yellow a lot darker than panchromatic black and white film does. The Gee-Bee Model Z only had one color scheme, black and yellow.

Is it possible that the Z originated with a red and black paint job? > Quote from Kregg

Sorry Kregg, I like red too, but ..................................

The original "Z" was yellow and black, and had the SPRINGFIELD RACING ASSOCIATION logo on it's cowl for it's entire short life in 1931. August 22, thru December 5th.

A replica was constructed by Bill Turner of California, and later used in the movie The Rocketeer. It had on it's cowl a Shamrock !
And at the begining of the movie it was yellow and black, and at the end of the movie it was white and black. ( The bad guys shot the first one down )

Pictures :
You can always tell the original 1931 Z by it's tail skid.
The replica had a tail wheel ! ( Smart move )

NR77V was the original, and if you want to have a scale version, then it must be yellow and black. Check the registration numbers on the wing and tail provided in your kit.

Jim Lynch > [email protected]

Paul: It was a 1/4" wide black line.

Jim Lynch > [email protected]

Bob,
The Page Z kit went together well and is very light! There certainly are a lot of stringers, but I did not have any difficulty. The front section of the Z is planked with flat strip balsa (1/4 x 1/8 I think) and went together without a hitch. If you leave a gap or two, it is easily filled with balsa dust and thin CA. The tail surfaces are very thin and I'm nervous about those infamous ground loops that will certainly happen. I will be flying from a grass strip, but it is usually trimmed pretty close. Hopefully I will not have the problems that Jim spoke of. Mine is only a .45 size model, but the wheels are still very large. Adrian says that he re-engineered the landing gear on the Z for better ground handling (since I bought mine) and will sell me the new gear... but the cost is pretty steep.

You should be free from ridicule with the R2 since a ARF is not available.... yet. I've been thinking about getting one as well. You got to love those racers. I'm building a 1/4 scale bipe racer too. The Curtiss R3C... steeped in history as well.

Jim-- I hate to say it, but it was actually a really dark blue. When Delmar Benjamen took his replica to show Pete Miller (the designer of the origonal) he had a scrap of fabric from the origonal, and it was actually blue. All the photos they had appeared black.


Kregg-- That looks awesome, you sure are a good builder.

--Paul

Kregg,

That Curtis is one beautiful airplane! Nice job. It would be really cool on floats.... have you considered it?

I just bought "The Air Racer" by Charles Mendenhall. It's almost two hundred pages of three-views and little bits of information. It's a neat book to have around if you like the old race planes.

Good luck with your project!

Maybe you already know this, but this bipe won several races in the 30s.
Most notably the Schneider Cup seaplane race in 1935 (R3C-3 on floats like below) and was flown by the same Doolittle. This was Doolittle first big win and then he proceeded to win the Bendix and then the Thompson trophies (Hence this thread, the R-1's big claim to fame). Prior to the Schneider Cup, The same bipe R3C-2 was flown by the Army several months erlier on wheels to several records and victories. Then it was converted to floats for Doolittle. Same plane, same paint job just a number change and floats.

Bob, I do not have flying access to a decent lake or I would build the float version. Perhaps someday I will convert it over for a special event. Thanks for the supportive comments.

Kregg,

The Mendenhall book I mentioned notes those victories by Lt. Cyrus Bettis (USAAS) on wheels and Jimmy Doolittle on floats. The airplane must have been an impressive performer.

I don't know a lot about air racing, but I intend to buy more books and continue to read on the subject. What was the attraction of racing seaplanes... did the Schneider Cup have a huge purse?

I hope you post some photos of that Curtis when you've completed it!

I live in an area surrounded by lakes and ponds. I just built a Unionville Hobby Supply 72" deHavilland DHC-2 Beaver with which to learn float-flying. I've made a couple of test flights on wheels last month when the weather permitted. I'm anxious for spring and my first try with floats. Maybe a Schneider Cup plane will be in my future....


Good flying,
Bob Scott

Kregg: This is interesting. Did he mention what he did to re-engineer the landing gear ? Spread them, shorten them, or what ? What is he trying to sell you that's so expensive, just the bent wire ? ? ?

What helps tremendously to prevent Ground Looping, is to be able to land directly into a light breeze.

"Ridicule" ? Not to worry. If you can fly and successfully land either the Page, or Kyosho model "Z"; you wont be ridiculed, you'll be applauded !

Jim Lynch, Tucson

Here's a shot of my Northwest Hobby Tech. R-2. Running a Sachs 3.2, covered w/ prepainted 21century fabric & painted w/ Krylon. Still need to cover wing, paint red trim & add beautiful grafix done for me by Dick Tristao of ModelGrafix. Should be ready to fly in a couple weeks.

Keep us informed on this one TLH, I hope to start my Northwest Hobbytech "Z" next week. It will be approximately the same size at 85" in span.

Jim

before