timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

I am building a wingspan b-17 and my build is getting few hits. Seems no oe is interested in slow steady progress. Everything in this kit is a wood block that you have to carve and cut. Like buildoign is supposed to be. Arfs are nice I hasve several but im surprised that fewer kits are coming out. Mike is working on a b-24 next! I can hardly wait! his build is going well it just takes time.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

ARF's have filled the I do not have time to build a kit part of life. I am a kit builder and do not have time for the ARF's. I have a few of them, but I still go back to the kits. There is more pride of ownership in a built plane and you know how it is built. Good Luck, Dave

scale dail

My Feedback: (8)

Yes, there is nothing like that pride of accomplishment. it does take time though!

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

I normally dont respond to threads like this cause it seems to get personal pretty quick. But I feel I should say what I've noticed at the field and in the forums. There are those that just dont have what it takes to be a builder. And those that concentrate on just flying. Which aparently is a lot of people. I hold nothing against them, just an observation. I do kits, scratch, and arfs. Almost all the arfs I build are modified to a great extent. I dont know very many people that jump into building and get it right from the beginning. I'm sure that all of us here, learned through the school of hard knocks. It takes time to develop the knowledge base we have for a succesful maiden, what works and what isnt really the best way to do something. And we understand there is a process when one wants to go to the next level in rc. I really like sitting down with a builder and just talking over different ideas, dream building and flying techniques.
Edwin

dhal22

i have always said building and flying are 2 different hobbies. i don't mind the cold weather, i can spend weeks building and not miss flying a bit. but i can't wait for longer warmer days to go fly regularly[sm=tongue_smile.gif]. what a great hobby, both of them!!!.

david

dhal22

btw, what's the link to your build?

david

pahtreek

My Feedback: (1)

Edwin,
I would have to say that you are not the normal "ARF" guy. It doesnt bother me the guy who has built a couple kits and decides that ARFs work better for them. But what I have noticed since ARF's have become so popular is that the beginners who start out with ARF's are the ones who suffer (and hurt the hobby). It stops being a "model" airplane, and more of a toy...especially when it comes to the "how much can I spend" guy.

I have met so many of these people who want to fly an RC airplane. They buy an ARF or two and quit the hobby out of boredom after a year or two. They learn to fly, see a dozen airplanes just like theirs, and just never "get-it". They never aquire a passion for this hobby. I think that thru the learning process of building and the pride in ownership that comes with something that you built from a bunch of sticks and sheets of balsa (and not knowing if it will fly) really sparks something in most people that goes far beyond just having a plane to fly around.

What is funny is that I have owned a couple arfs, it took almost as long to put together as a 4 star forty I built not too long ago. The smell of fresh monokote when you first roll it open and the thrill of watching something you built FLY for the first time can never be underestimated as to the impact of keeping someone in the hobby and developing a true passion.

I hope that more people start building, otherwise there wont be any kits available 10 years from now. I have grown to build giant warbirds from scratch, but I still remember my Sig Kadet Jr. that I built and flew when I was 13 (almost 30 years ago now) and how proud I was at my accomplishment.
I wonder if I would still be in this hobby if I started off flying an ARF, I sincerely doubt it.

Oh well, for what it's worth, I just felt like expressing my opinion.
Have a great flying season!

Patrick
www.putfile.com/pahtreek

summerwind

here is the link to Tim's build...
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_70..._1/key_/tm.htm

Boomerang1

I guess the simple answer to your question about so few hits is because you posted it in the 'twin & multi engine' section instead of the RC scale aircraft section. I visit scale every day & twin & multi very occasionally.

I had the same problem with a Macchi 339 scratch build thread posted here instead of in scratch building & design.

A friend is building a Top Flite B-25 & he feels it is not an ARF because it has so many pieces.........LOL!

I reminded him that to truly scratch build you must first start with some balsa seeds & grow your own tree. - John

abufletcher

This is exactly the way I feel. I don't build to fly, but build to build and fly to fly.

Mode One

I think patience is somewhat of a dying virtue, in today's world. Many people don't seem to understand the sense of accomplishement or the enjoyment that comes from the process of building things with their hands anymore. It takes time to learn how to build R/C models. It takes time to learn about the various aspects of aerodynamics as applied to model aircraft. I enjoyed every moment of this learning adventure and look back fondly at the first airplane I built and the friends I made way back when I started. If I didn't build models, I think I would not enjoy life near as much as I do.

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

It's difficult for me, and many others my age, to relate to the ARF movement. I've been in the hobby on and off since I was 12 or 13 (I'm 61 now) and continuously since about 1973, and built many, many plastic models of all kinds before that and was throwing 5 cent hand launched gliders around since I was five or so.

I certainly have nothing against ARF's, and have had, and have, several myself. But when I fly them I always feel like I'm flying someone else's plane. It doesn't sit well with me to have no personal investment in the plane, and I miss the satisfaction of flying something I built myself, even if it's just from a kit.

One of the first days I showed up at the club I am now in, I brought a newly completed Tower .40 size Kaos Jr I built from the kit. One of the members came over to check it out and asked me if I built it. I said "yes" and with a genuinely puzzled look said "didn't you know there is an ARF available for this plane?" (!) Few current members appreciate what it takes to actually build a model and there is little recognition for those who have done so.

I feel sorry for those who will probably never know the satisfaction of getting a bunch of balsa sticks and sheets together in proper enough order to fly. I don't buy the excuse that they don't have the time to build; we all find the time to dabble in our hobbies. Building is just not part of the hobby for many. It's sad how many ARF pilots just trash a plane they've dinged because they have no clue how to repair it.

I recently attended a large RC auction/swap shop hoping to find a kit or two. Just several years ago there were dozens of kits for sale at this auction; this year the number could be counted on one hand. Of the many completed planes for sale, the vast majority were ARFs.

One thing that I cannot help but get annoyed at though, is the photos of modelers in magazines busting their buttons with pride over the ARF they just "built." The photo probably having been published at the expense of eliminating a photo of someone with a plane they actually did build. Some magazines now even title reviews of ARF's as "build" reviews...

I have to admit that overall ARF's have been good for the hobby as a whole. They've brought many new people into it and have led to the development of the great, reliable equipment we now enjoy and can purchase at very reasonable prices.

mogman

I think a lot of it is the "instant gratification" aspect. I want to go flying...but I want to do it NOW!
As previously said, building is half of the hobby, and flying is the other half,(ok, so socialising with the guys at the field is another half)..but you get the picture.
A lot of people live in apartments where you can't make the noise and the stink and the dust etc., so for them an arf is the answer.
There's one point though, we all love this hobby(most of the time) and for all the people I've met over the years through model a/craft,I wouldn't change anything.

Cheers, Dave.

abufletcher

I would have never gotten into RC without ARFs. Several decades ago I bought a couple of balsa kits -- but somehow never got around to building them. It all seemed so intimidating. And honestly, the first time I assembled an ARF that was already a sufficiently steep learning curve. I mean I didn't know which way to install the grommets on the servos!

I would never waste a single building minute making a non-scale model like a trainer or any of the fun-flys. Building for me, means SCALE building and I don't really want to do any other kind. Actually, it means building WWI SCALE and if I ever wanted to fly a P-51, I'm pretty sure I'd buy an ARF.

TFF

I like to build to fly. I have only bought one ARF new and one used and felt dirty flying them both, even though all my club flies are ARFs. It is not that I am against ARFs as much as I know I am shortcutting myself. I have learned something every time I have built something and learned that when I put the arf together that I wished it was a kit. I like the history of RC and the different places it takes me. I like scale the best because I like real airplanes. I am into WW1 stuff now but when in grade school and high school I liked WW2 stuff(learned from my dad). I run a history of planes in my head and a chicken or the egg game, I cant love WW2 without the WW1 stuff, seeing where we came from, and seeing WW1 is to look for the dreams of the planes of WW2; only 20 years difference. I like RC sport planes and old pattern planes too. My first plane was a Jr Falcon in 7th grade crooked, heavy, Baby bee from my dads Firebaby CL plane , and 2 channel Futaba. I was part of the club of model airplanes. It made me feel I was an expert on design,mechanics, electronics; a renaissance man of engineering. I love my old Kraft radios and K&B race engines I have collected.
Right now technology is wagging RC with ARF manufacturing and Spread Spectrum radios and cheap Chinese engines making it a consumer product rather than a personal thing to conquer; modeling was the beginning road to the top of technology, just ask Armstrong or Rutan. Some funny things, the guy that got me back into this only likes ARFs and my dad frowned upon the Jemco P-51 I got for Christmas in '81 because it had a foam wing.

bokuda

My Feedback: (7)

Yes, they certainly fill many needs. I have several small electric powered ARFs. And when got into flying pattern 5 or so years ago, I got 1.10 sized ARF called Quest that I flew while I was building a 2 meter pattern plane from plans.

As for building in apartments: when I took up the hobby again after time out for college and the Army and had just gotten married, we were living in a small 2-room apartment. I built my first couple of planes from kits and turned the kitchen table upside down for my building board - really! I used a regular flat iron for Monocoting. About the only tools I had were an x-acto knife, a hand drill and a coping saw, pliars and a few screw drivers. (Where there's a will, there's a way.) At the time, about the only ARF's available were the early Lanier's and they were terrible. They were made of different kinds of plastics, very heavy, and were pretty much not repairable if damaged.

ARF's have come long way and the quality of many of them is amazing. And the kicker is that they cost about the same or less than building a comparable kit. But I still cringe when I see a Monocoted Fokker DR1 ARF at a WW1 fly-in!

abufletcher

I must admit though that there are builders and then there are builders! When I see something like the following, I think that my silly little WWI models must seem like ARFs by comparison:

http://www.experimental-aircraft-mod...span_B17/index

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I think if people were honest, they would admit that most decisions about how to do this or that is based on lazyness. Most people don't want to hear it, though. BTW, the average American adult male is divorced, obese and in deep credit debt, so consider the demographic source of the "ARF boom".

KI8FR

The thing with me is I will take a kit to the club and not fly it. lol I will take it out there with the plan on flying it but not doing it. I will do that 5 to 6 times before I finly get the muster to get it up and try it out. Most of the time when I get it up it will fly like a dreem. but just getting it up there for the 1st time is hard.

But if I take a ARF out there for the 1st time It goes up that day.

So that can tell you somthing. I will not get that upset if I bring a ARF to it end but if I take a kit up. I do not want to have its end. lol

Paul

TFF

I will say I don't like the attention I get when I bring a new plane out as I can be cautious with it. most of the club are profile flyers and they fly just short of combat with them. They are flying the most forgiving planes around, where with the scale, I have a couple that will snap in a turn. Also a fault of mine is once I build something and fly it if I cant correct the problems without a big rebuild it gets shelved for the next plane. When I first wanted to do this, my mom said on the first plane, " Sometime it will crash, you don't get to cry about it. You can always make another." I try to do this; last weekend I lost a pattern plane( some my fault some the planes) and for that plane I was glad; it had been a piece of junk sense the first flight and I was tired of fighting it for a year. I was singing as I took the stuff out and stomped it. Room for something new!

papermache

My Feedback: (35)

combatpigg,
You just hit on my pet peeve of pet peeves. The people you mention are the same ones who give you the "I don't have time to build" line. If they'd get off the couch and turn off the TV, they'd find they have plenty of time to build. All it takes is maybe 30 minutes to an hour a night. As long as you're regular about it, you'll be done in very decent time, and the results will surprise you.
Nobody GIVES you the time to do things you love. You MAKE the time to do those things. I work 40-60 hours per week, a combination of swing shift and days. I've got a 90 mile round trip to and from my job. I sing in my church choir, play with a folk music group, volunteer at the National Park and do fund-raising work for the local Philharmonic orchestra. I still have time to build AND fly. I have not watched regular TV programs in over 20 years. I watch some news and some sports, but that's about it. From what I can tell, I haven't missed much.
If all you want to do if fly, go ahead and buy ARFs. I'd rather bring something to the field that's a little different and isn't like everybody else's plane. There's an immense amount of pride that goes along with building. I feel bad for the ARFers because they'll never feel that. Bottom line is, if you want to build, make the time for it. It's there.

Thanks for letting me have my little rant.

papermache

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

papermache, something tells me that you might enjoy a single home made burger more than you would a sack full of Big Macs?

timothy thompson

My Feedback: (1)

i do both but i dont understand whats happening to our world. Remember Heathkit? no one builds anything !want a 6 foot scale battleship? spend 15000 and call fine art models and lie and tell everyone you did it

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

I like to build things. Other people don't. Perhaps they enjoy coaching their kids little league or drinking beer and discussing the latest theories in astrophysics with their friends. Why do these ARF vs. Built threads always end up a big ego fest.. "We're better than them because we're more disciplined with our time.....", "We take more pride in our work....", "We've acquired enlightenment through existential accomplishment...."

The reality is most people flying ARF's today haven't ever been exposed to building. After seeing my planes and asking me how to get started several people in my club have begun to build their own airplanes. Set a quiet example and when someone asks, try to be encouraging and supportive.

KI8FR

building. I just had to sit and think about that. I love to build and make things. Some time I will put a post on here and ask, does any one think this will work? or I will ask what is a good way to make this? or I was thinking of making something that will do this. what do you all think. and I will get a reply back saying. just go out and buy this or that. it is cheep only 100 bucks. I would say I do not want to buy it I want to make it. Then I will get a post of something like if you cant afford to buy it then you should not be in the hobby.

I think that goes in the same line. I like to build and make things. some work and some do not. but it is fun to try. Going to the club to fly and I bring my flight box with me that I made with all kinds of neat gadgets that I made to do that things I want to do. and people will look at it and say that is a cool idea.

I have some ARF and some kits. Most of the AFRs I have I got 2nd hand. but I can make them my way and the kids my way.

This is all part of the hobby. Just have fun. If it is with a ARF, kit, gas or electric. It is all in fun.

there is something in this hobby for every one.

Paul