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proctor eindecker

Old 05-24-2003, 02:36 AM
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Bud Faulkner
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Default proctor eindecker

Has anyone built his kit and if so what did you think of the construction? Typical proctor quality? Also has anyone used a gasser for power and is it as fragile as it looks. One more question...wing warping or ailerons?
Old 05-24-2003, 04:32 AM
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Default proctor eindecker

Bud, I have this kit and can tell you it is first class. The landing gear is a thing of beauty. It has scale wing warping and comes with Williams wheels and gun. The fuselage is constructed of dowl like the D-7 kit so it is exact scale looking. I'm going to put a Laser 2.00 V-twin on mine. Don
Old 05-24-2003, 11:45 AM
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Default eindecker

Thanks Don,
Sounds great. Do you know if anyone has used a G23/26 on one. Not real familiar with gassers but bore and stroke seem to be in roughly the same area as the V200 twin from what i've read.
Bud
Old 05-24-2003, 12:57 PM
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The PIPE
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Default I've got the PLANS for this great kit...

WHOOPS...please read the post of mine immediately BELOW this one!
Old 05-24-2003, 01:28 PM
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Default I've got the PLANS for this great kit...

Dear Bud:

The PIPE Here again-and I've got the PLANS and instruction manual for the Proctor Eindecker kit, and as soon as I can get a real "modeler's workshop" of power tools purchased in the coming year's worth of time, I'll be able to actually BUILD "new" RC Scale models again!

I'm planning to purchase JUST the hardware for the kit, and NOT the kit itself, as I've got the idea to build the fuselage with COMPOSITE style fiberglass tubing (for the longerons) and WRAPPED carbon fiber tube for the verticals and crosspieces. All of the tubing will be purchased from CST Sales, and will DEFINITELY result in a model, with a fuselage built from the composite tube instead of that HEAVY 5/16" (about 8 mm) diameter MAPLE dowel that in the kit as furnished, that will be MUCH lighter than the kit builds up into!

Actually, MY Eindecker-the original pre-production "M.5K/MG" version, as shown in Windsock Datafile 91-is going to be E.5/15, the very FIRST individual fighter aircraft in aviation history to score a victory over an opponent on July 1, 1915, with Leutnant KURT WINTGENS at the joystick of E.5/15 that day, when he downed a Morane Parasol two seater. I CANNOT show a copy of one of the photos of E.5/15 I have scanned in my PC HERE, as that "max file size" of only 70 kilobytes is just TOO SMALL to properly show you a photo of the prototype I'm going to replicate in miniature-the allowed file size HAS been "bigger" in the past here at RCU, but it's been growing SMALLER every so often, as time has passed, and if that trend continues, soon it will be pointless to even attach an image to ANY post here at RCU...!

Sufice it to say, the E.5/15 has a MUCH shorter-than-the-E III-version wingspan that scales out to about 88 inches in true 1/4 scale, and also has a shorter 66 inch long fuselage...also notable, is the fact that the wing panels are NOT attached at mid-fuselage, but attach JUST below the upper fuselage longeron instead on the M.5K/MG Eindeckers as they first came out of the factory.

I've also got the Fokker E I scale drawigns from Windsock Datafile 91 scanned into my PC already, and will use THOSE to start making up the full blown construction plans for my M.5K/MG Giant Scale model. with scanned "inserts" from my set of the Proctor plans for things like landing gear details, etc. The plans themselves will be drawn up on DesignCAD 3000 here at home, and will use the photos of the E.5/15-as well as other relevant photos from the Datafile-as the main reference for my CAD drawn M.5K/MG planset.

At http://www.cstsales.com/catalog.htm , look for "Fiberglass-Solid and Hollow Rods" to see what I'll be using for longeron material. and "Carbon Rods & Tubes-Wrapped Tubes" for the crosspiece/vertical member material, that will be used in eventually building up my own M.5K/MG's fuselage...scale diameter seems to be about 1/4 inch in outside diameter for just about the whole fuselage structure.

These days, I'm just waiting to the return of my new MicroStar single stick owner built radio from its RF work at Radio South to REALLY get flyin' again this season...it's got FOUR receivers to be tuned to it once the Tx RF work is completed...and a new set of elevator surfaces, and installation of a new Saito FA-56 engine in my 1980's built model of Rhinebeck's Fleet Finch bipe will get IT flying again this summer under the control of my new MicroStar.

I've seen a "stock" Proctor E III Eindecker flown with 5 cylinder Saito radial power under the cowl at some recent Rhinebeck RC Jamborees, and that wing warping DOES work rather well...but I'd suggest getting a STRONG servo, preferably a digital one (or pair of them) to do the wing warping, as the servo(s) controlling the wing warping should have a high "standing" torque to resist the slipstream, AND the wing's structure itself, trying to oppose the control input to warp the wings for roll control. I'm seriously thinking of the Hitec 5945 digital servo for the wing warping on my M.5K/MG...it's got 153 in/oz torque for a 4.8 volt power setup.

Just about ANY of the Proctor models builds up into a NICE flying aircraft...the Balsa USA early era Scale models ALSO fly very nicely as a rule (still can't get over HOW realistically their MONSTER 1/3rd scale Pup flies!!!) but aren't meant to be quite as detailed "right out of the kit box" as the Proctor kits are.

I'd say "go for it", Bud...and that COMPOSITE tubing structure fuselage idea I've got in mind MIGHT save a bit of weight for you on YOUR E III, should you think about building your Proctor Fokker with it...and I can also tell you HOW to do those SWIRLS on the metal paneling, and the RIGHT way to to up that TOUGH-to-get-RIGHT upper longeron "ledge" just behind the cowl's rear edge to look authentic.

Just Email me if you've got any questions about that composite tubing idea-AND how to do the "swirls" on the cowl and metal paneling!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
Old 05-24-2003, 02:02 PM
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Bud Faulkner
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Default eindecker

Thanks pipe, sent you mail.

Bud
Old 05-24-2003, 10:52 PM
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Default proctor eindecker

Pipe, I think when you price everything out you can get the whole kit for not much more. By the time you figure trips to the hobby shop and ordering stuff you forgot it gets up there. The only drawback to the carbon rod is how to bend it. My Fokker D-7 is built with the dowel and it is very strong. What really adds weight is all of the wire crossbracing but that adds all of the strengh. The other thing is with the large wing area these airplanes fly better when they have some weight to them. My D-7 is 26# and is still a real floater. Don
Old 05-25-2003, 12:10 AM
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Default proctor eindecker

Bud, as far as engines go. The Laser 200V is appx 33cc and is probably more comparable to the G38. Proctor, from my conversations with them, does not recommend a 2 stroke gassers for their planes because of the vibrations associated with them. This is especially true when it comes to the fixed magneto ignition gas 2 strokers. Some of the newer types of battery powered ignition gas 2 strokers seem to run much smoother and they might work fine. Take a real hard look at those Laser engines before you decide to go gas.
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Old 05-25-2003, 12:39 AM
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Bud Faulkner
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Default eindecker

Thanks 2 piece, I was really curious. I have a G38 and a G62 i've never used and thought the G38 might be too much for it but i'd like to switch to gas since the glow fuel gives me headaches for some reason...must be a chemical thing. Would a CH ignition help? The laser 200 twin is a beautiful engine but too pricey for my wallet.

Bud
Old 05-25-2003, 12:54 AM
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Yes, I would say that the CH ignition should help, although I have no experience with them.
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Old 05-29-2003, 03:13 PM
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John Cole
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Hi Bud,
I`ve got a Proctor E-III in my hangar, done up in the Austrian scheme (lt green). It was built by a friend, mostly completed, but not entirely. I assisted during most of it, and it went together really well. The dowel idea works. Joints are very strong when braced with these little 'star' fittings and their associated wires. There was only a couple of parts that were not useable in the kit, and the weight seems rather light when compared to how many square inches you`re carrying around with that huge wing. We modified the wing warping hardware quite a bit to better simulate the full size a/c and to provide better mechanical advantage. In reality, it takes very little effort to warp the wing in flight. So you don`t have to overkill your servo installation at all. Just a standard 1/4 scale type is plenty. The undercarriage assembly really is a good design, and Proctor does a great job in replicating it. I`d have to vote for purchasing this kit rather than trying to do it from scratch. The truth is, I`m trying to sell the Proctor stuff all that I can since dorking their prototype D-VII last summer. Order yours today!

John
Old 05-29-2003, 03:28 PM
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Default eindecker

Thanks John, have any pictures? Are you saying there's wire bracing as opposed to the dowels like in the antic? Sounds more scale. Can't wait to get both the jenny and the eindecker....waiting for pending sale on my pilot decathlon before ordering but think i'll go ahead and order the nieuport gear for my antic now. What a pleasure his kits are.
Bud

Sorry about your DVll......another beauty.
Old 05-29-2003, 03:47 PM
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Bud,
Yes, cables are utilized which are pretty nice to use. They certainly are important as they add lots of strength to the structure. I have pictures somewhere of my E-III, I`ll dig them up and email you. There is a thread on Antics in the 'vintage r/c' category.

John
Old 05-29-2003, 07:06 PM
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Default Proctor

I ordered my FokkerDVll and just received it last night. WOW what a kit. it's going to take some time to built ( flying season you know ). Pittsdriver any tip for the kit? thanks FokkerD7
Old 05-29-2003, 07:11 PM
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John Cole
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Unfortunately, it was Proctors` D-7, NOT mine. Ouch. Nothing more than a very awkward landing, but still... It is a great flier, that`s for sure. And sooo many color schemes to choose from.


John
Old 05-29-2003, 10:36 PM
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Bud Faulkner
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Default eindecker

Just got to thinking......does the proctor kit have a metal cowl? Hard to do the swirls on abs.
Old 05-29-2003, 11:14 PM
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Default proctor eindecker

Bud, Yes the Eindecker has an aluminium cowl and side panels.
7, I found it easier to notch the dowels with a Dremel tool with the small drum sander than the drill they recomend. if you want to go with the drill I have mine somewhere so let me know. I also did the elevator and rudder control a little diferently than Proctor and it comes out more scale so get ahold of me when you get to that part.
John, Was that Gary's D-7 Li that you were flying? Don
Old 05-29-2003, 11:44 PM
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Default eindecker

Thanks Don, i'll let you know when I get to that part. First I have to get the kit before I have a hissy fit Just ordered the nieuport gear today for my antic.

Bud
Old 05-30-2003, 01:38 PM
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Hi Don,
That D-7 was the first one built...red and white. It`s on one of their catalogs. They still fly it all the time, I think Dick Heininge built it. I buggered the landing and tweaked the l/g...embarrassing.
And yer right about the E-III tail controls, it can be made more scale with a little extra effort. I`m really looking forward to getting mine finished, it`s very close. Sticking an OS 1.2 in it.

John
Old 05-30-2003, 01:55 PM
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John, Actually I was talking about my D-7 on the control instalation and I will do my Eindecker the same. My D-7 is a real docile airplane if flown off grass and a completely uncontrolable bear off hard suface runways. My dad's freind used to fly Frank Tallman's D-7 and he said it was usaully a nice landing airplane but would rear up and bite for no reason at all every once in a while. He said you always had to be ready for something with that airplane. Don
Old 05-30-2003, 02:00 PM
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Very interesting. Funny how alot of these designs all kind of act the same when it comes to ground handling. I`ve been flying my Proctor N-11 for years, and landings (grass ONLY) are still exciting.
I can take off most of my WW1 models from pavement, even do touch and go`s....but landings? Fergit it. Yep, the D-7 is a great flyer, and would certainly be a kit worth considering.

John
Old 05-30-2003, 02:58 PM
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Like John, I have lots of flights with my N-11 on grass. Every one is exciting. Takeoff's/Touch n Go's/Landings are not easy, but can be executed well in grass. As John said, landings on pavement are just about impossible. Besides, it wears out the skid dragging itself around on pavement!

As far as ground handling though, I would think that the Eindecker should be among the best of them. From watching the one flown by Gus Stutsman at the Masters, that would seem to be true. Long tail moment, shorter landing gear and lower center of gravity all help.

As an aside, Gary and Joe supported our local USSM Qualifier with one of their great VK Nieuport 17 kits-- this was used as the final pilot's raffle prize. I was fortunate enough to win it! I'm actually looking to upgrade it to one of the big ones-- N-28, D-VII or an Albatros. Just can't decide...

Jeff Lovitt
Old 05-30-2003, 03:39 PM
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I have Frank Tallman's flying report on the DVII and the eindecker if anyone wants I can scan it and send it to you. It's from a book he wrote "Flying the Old Planes" excellent read. He did from WW-1 to WW-2.

Bud
Old 05-30-2003, 04:14 PM
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Bud, That is a great book, I have it myself and still enjoy reading it every once in awhile. I grew up in Orange County and my parents would drop me off at Tallmantz while they got a cup of coffee at the restaurant. I would go in and find Tallman ,Mantz or Frank Pine and ask if I could go sit in the airplanes. They always said yes but told me don't be flipping any switches. This was before they were a museum in the late 50's early 60's. I got to see most of the WW1 planes fly at one time or another and my dad's friend Dave Jesse was one of the pilots that worked for them. Both Frank Tallman and Paul Mantz were great pilots and real gentlemen and its too bad they are gone. The flying school I learned to fly at was in the Tallmantz building and I would walk by Tallman's office on the way out to the flightline. He was very gracious and I spoke to him many times. Don
Old 05-30-2003, 04:55 PM
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Don....what a great story! You are to be envied, wish I could have met them. I must have met someone big associated with aviation once.....I was at our local airport one day and saw a staggerwing parked and was looking at it when a man came up to me and started talking about it, I asked if it were his and he said no. We talked some more and he offered to buy me a cup of coffee, he talked about owning Clark Gable's car and aviation, while we talked inside at the cafeteria two guy's at the next table leaned over and asked him something like someone important (mentioning a name I didn't hear) was to fly in today and did he know anything about it? I hardly heard the full conversation because i'm deaf in one ear. Oh yeah, he introduced himself to me as Paul Wing...strange I thought, sounds as if it were made up. When we left there was a limo. there to pick him up. A very nice guy but i'm scratching my head to this day as to who was this guy????? That's the first and last time i've seen a staggerwing at our little airport. That was about 1974

Bud

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