Basic Vacuum Forming
01-22-2003, 03:34 AM
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Vacuum Forming
Woo hoo!!! It finally worked!!!
Well, Chad, you were right.... I tried the triangular stock surround again, only using 1" tri stock and voila, almost all of the webbing is gone....
I think with a little experimentation, varying the distance to each side of the mold, I should be able to eliminate it completely!
Again, thanks Chad, Craig and everyone else for all the help and direction (and here's a guarantee from me that I'll never try to vacuum form a shape like this again!)
Steve
Well, Chad, you were right.... I tried the triangular stock surround again, only using 1" tri stock and voila, almost all of the webbing is gone....
I think with a little experimentation, varying the distance to each side of the mold, I should be able to eliminate it completely!
Again, thanks Chad, Craig and everyone else for all the help and direction (and here's a guarantee from me that I'll never try to vacuum form a shape like this again!)
Steve
06-25-2003, 09:28 PM
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Vacuum forming foam?
I found a local supply for that thin foam that they make meat trays and the like out of. It's a lot like the stuff That GWS uses for their Tiger Moth wings. I would love to be able to Vac form it.
Has any one used or tried it before?
Cheers
Katipo
Has any one used or tried it before?
Cheers
Katipo
06-26-2003, 03:05 PM
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Basic Vacuum Forming
Katipo, I think you will find that meat tray type foam will not Vacuum form but rather will simply melt. Items made from this material are generally injection molded if I'm not mistaken.
06-26-2003, 06:17 PM
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Basic Vacuum Forming
Hi Chad, Thanks for your reply. The company who supplied the foam pre heats the roll stock then presses it through a male/female die or mold. The guy there who supplies me with it said that he knows that it can be vacuum formed but had no other details. I think of it a bit like a thick ABS just softer and very light. There are several park fly type models around using it already. Has anyone had a go with this stuff?
One of the biggest difficulties I see is that because it is a foam it will act lick an insulator and that means I will need to heat it on both sides. Any thoughts?
One of the biggest difficulties I see is that because it is a foam it will act lick an insulator and that means I will need to heat it on both sides. Any thoughts?
07-17-2003, 08:33 PM
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Basic Vacuum Forming
Hi Chad Veich
Unfortunately I'm down here in New Zealand so our local supplier would be a little out of your way not to mention the freight costs.
I did my first experiments with the foam the other night and found out that it is quite temperature critical but when I did get it right it worked well. This was also my very first attempt at Vacuum forming so with a little more time I should have it sorted.
The weight and the stiffness of this stuff is amazing. I'm now going to build a bigger vacuum former so that I can make park fly size fuselages. That's about 800mm long. I was quite amazed how well it did form (when I got the temp right) with our standard house vacuum cleaner minis the bag.
The biggest issue I see is getting a good heat source. What do you guys use?
Cheers, Katipo
Unfortunately I'm down here in New Zealand so our local supplier would be a little out of your way not to mention the freight costs.
I did my first experiments with the foam the other night and found out that it is quite temperature critical but when I did get it right it worked well. This was also my very first attempt at Vacuum forming so with a little more time I should have it sorted.
The weight and the stiffness of this stuff is amazing. I'm now going to build a bigger vacuum former so that I can make park fly size fuselages. That's about 800mm long. I was quite amazed how well it did form (when I got the temp right) with our standard house vacuum cleaner minis the bag.
The biggest issue I see is getting a good heat source. What do you guys use?
Cheers, Katipo
07-18-2003, 04:21 PM
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Basic Vacuum Forming
Katipo, right now I'm just using my household oven as a heat source. I am planning a vac former with its own heat source but have not built it yet. I may try to find a source for the meat tray type foam here locally. I'd like to give it a shot, sounds very promising for the park flyer type stuff. Good luck with it.
08-27-2003, 05:17 PM
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Vaccum forming
Mico,
I'll try to get a picture for you in the next day or so. Basically what I did was cut four pieces of 1" tri stock to create a frame around the plug that allowed about a 3/4"-1" gap between the plug and the tri stock when placed on my vac table. Mine was pretty rough cut and it took a little experimentation, but worked perfectly once I had the spacing correct.
Steve
I'll try to get a picture for you in the next day or so. Basically what I did was cut four pieces of 1" tri stock to create a frame around the plug that allowed about a 3/4"-1" gap between the plug and the tri stock when placed on my vac table. Mine was pretty rough cut and it took a little experimentation, but worked perfectly once I had the spacing correct.
Steve
10-22-2003, 10:15 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Baldeagle,
That would be interesting - you could make parts and get a tan - tell everyone you went to AZ for the winter!
I don't see why it wouldn't work. I've used a heat gun to mold up to .030" styrene around a form - usually part of a plane.
In regard to other comments about heating element in vac former - I have developed a feel for heating the plastic in the oven set at 400 deg in an alum frame. It works well, it's simple, and my wife now accepts the idea of me doing this in the oven (there's always that training period).
Steve
That would be interesting - you could make parts and get a tan - tell everyone you went to AZ for the winter!
I don't see why it wouldn't work. I've used a heat gun to mold up to .030" styrene around a form - usually part of a plane.
In regard to other comments about heating element in vac former - I have developed a feel for heating the plastic in the oven set at 400 deg in an alum frame. It works well, it's simple, and my wife now accepts the idea of me doing this in the oven (there's always that training period).
Steve
10-23-2003, 11:23 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Chad et al.
Excellent thread!! I am about to think about forming a canopy for a Sea Fury project I have. I have the stock canopy to make a plug from. But once the plug is done, I'll need to add to it to change the shape and length some before forming.
The process DOES seem easier than I thought.
Excellent thread!! I am about to think about forming a canopy for a Sea Fury project I have. I have the stock canopy to make a plug from. But once the plug is done, I'll need to add to it to change the shape and length some before forming.
The process DOES seem easier than I thought.
10-23-2003, 05:20 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Nik, it really is not a complicated process. It does take some practice to get used to the way the various forms of plastic work. Clear parts are the hardest because any flaw at all in the plug really shows up in the finished parts. RCM ran an article a few years back on how to achieve a crystal clear canopy. Basically, you form a canopy over your mold and leave it on the mold. Sand it with progressively finer grades of sand paper until all the sheen is removed from the plastic. You'll want to finish up with probably 320 or 400 grit paper. Now form a second canopy over the first and, viola, perfectly clear. I like this system because it is much easier than trying to get a perfectly smooth finish on a wood plug. Give it a try and good luck!
PS- Does the name Tim Keeney ring any bells with you?
PS- Does the name Tim Keeney ring any bells with you?
10-23-2003, 07:32 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Chad: This is a very interesting post, and your methods are strikingly similar to what I used to do when I had a mail-order model business. It was back about l980 (I think) when Balsa USA came out with the 1/3 scale Sopwith Pup. The wheels that they provided were very weak, and would bend whenever a side load was applied, which was just about every landing. One day while playing golf, I looked at the wheel on my golf cart, and imagined that it would suffice as a replacement WW-I wheel, if I could buy them cheap enough, and if I could come up with plastic covers to make them look authenic. It had a smooth tire and was 10 inches dia.
The first thing that I did was to place an order for wheels (Sun WheelCompany - Warsaw, Indiana). Minimum order was 2000 wheels. Do the math - that's 4000 covers that would need to be made. I had NEVER vacuum formed anything before, but I knew that it could be done - all I had to do is educate myself as to how to do it.
In order to not waste plastic, I sized the basic box just to accomodate a piece of plastic that would make one cover. This box looked just like yours! Imagine that. However, for the heating frame, I used wood. This made for easier handling, since wood doesn't conduct heat like an aluminum frame does. Also, my frame was hinged on one side, and both wooden surfaces (top and bottom) had coarse sandpaper glued to it. All I had to do is open it, slide in a sheet of plastic, and turn a single quick clamp that applied enough force to keep the plastic from pulling away from the sandpaper.
Heat the oven to 350 deg. Open the door, and place the frame on the kitchen stove oven rack. Time it for exactly one minute, wherein the plastic sagged about 3/4 inch. Open the door, turn on the big shop vac, and place the frame over the basic box that had the mold made from hardwood (cherry). Presto - there was a neat wheel cover ready to be trimmed.
Turn off the vac, open the hinged frame, slide in a new piece of plastic, and do it again. I got so good that I could make two wheel covers every five minutes.
Now you have got to wonder if we sold all 2000 wheels. The answer is YES, and before I sold the business I made 4000 more covers for an additional 2000 wheels.
Where did they go? To every state in the USA, plus Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Argentina, Peru, South Africa, China, Poland, New Zealand, France, Germany, Iceland, Great Britian, Checkoslovakia, Japan, Hungary, Denmark, and Russia to name a few.
I also manufactured a 7 1/2 in dia. wheel for 1/4 scale WW-I in similar fashion. It was fun, and profitable.
Here's a photo of my finished wheels.
Once again - a great post. You are to be commended.
The first thing that I did was to place an order for wheels (Sun WheelCompany - Warsaw, Indiana). Minimum order was 2000 wheels. Do the math - that's 4000 covers that would need to be made. I had NEVER vacuum formed anything before, but I knew that it could be done - all I had to do is educate myself as to how to do it.
In order to not waste plastic, I sized the basic box just to accomodate a piece of plastic that would make one cover. This box looked just like yours! Imagine that. However, for the heating frame, I used wood. This made for easier handling, since wood doesn't conduct heat like an aluminum frame does. Also, my frame was hinged on one side, and both wooden surfaces (top and bottom) had coarse sandpaper glued to it. All I had to do is open it, slide in a sheet of plastic, and turn a single quick clamp that applied enough force to keep the plastic from pulling away from the sandpaper.
Heat the oven to 350 deg. Open the door, and place the frame on the kitchen stove oven rack. Time it for exactly one minute, wherein the plastic sagged about 3/4 inch. Open the door, turn on the big shop vac, and place the frame over the basic box that had the mold made from hardwood (cherry). Presto - there was a neat wheel cover ready to be trimmed.
Turn off the vac, open the hinged frame, slide in a new piece of plastic, and do it again. I got so good that I could make two wheel covers every five minutes.
Now you have got to wonder if we sold all 2000 wheels. The answer is YES, and before I sold the business I made 4000 more covers for an additional 2000 wheels.
Where did they go? To every state in the USA, plus Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Argentina, Peru, South Africa, China, Poland, New Zealand, France, Germany, Iceland, Great Britian, Checkoslovakia, Japan, Hungary, Denmark, and Russia to name a few.
I also manufactured a 7 1/2 in dia. wheel for 1/4 scale WW-I in similar fashion. It was fun, and profitable.
Here's a photo of my finished wheels.
Once again - a great post. You are to be commended.
10-23-2003, 07:59 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Jim, thanks for sharing your interesting and entertaining vac-forming experiences with us! I love the wood frame/sandpaper idea and will give it a try in the very near future. The big drawback to the clamps I use is the time it takes between pulls to remove and replace the sheet.
Others, Jim mentions above that he sized his forming box to fit the part in order to save material. I too have found this to be advantageous and I now have three different size boxes. Plus, having an excess amount of soft plastic flopping around causes all sorts of other problems, not the least of which is webbing. The boxes are cheap and easy to make so why not make several?
Others, Jim mentions above that he sized his forming box to fit the part in order to save material. I too have found this to be advantageous and I now have three different size boxes. Plus, having an excess amount of soft plastic flopping around causes all sorts of other problems, not the least of which is webbing. The boxes are cheap and easy to make so why not make several?
10-24-2003, 10:09 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Jim,
Great idea - the wood frame. The alum frame problem - not a big one - is that the binder clamps I use all the way around the alum angle cause a little standoff when placed on the former. That reduces some of the vacuum. (The alum frame idea came from a book on the subject - which was better than any ideas I had).
The wood frame could be made so that it fits snug in the former, thus adding vacuum. Plus it's easier to handle the wood than hot metal.
Thanks
Steve
Great idea - the wood frame. The alum frame problem - not a big one - is that the binder clamps I use all the way around the alum angle cause a little standoff when placed on the former. That reduces some of the vacuum. (The alum frame idea came from a book on the subject - which was better than any ideas I had).
The wood frame could be made so that it fits snug in the former, thus adding vacuum. Plus it's easier to handle the wood than hot metal.
Thanks
Steve
10-24-2003, 10:14 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Steve, I have the same problems with the clamps holding the plastic off of the forming bed just a wee bit. One way around the problem is to use a sheet that is bigger all the way around than the box so the clamps are outside the perimeter. However, this requires more plastic which equals more waste among other problems. I like Jim's idea even better and I plan to try it myself.
10-24-2003, 11:00 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
I like the idea, that you guys like my idea, of the wooden frame. That makes my contribution to this thread worthwhile.
When you guys make your wooden frame, it must be very rigid. Also make sure that the hinges (I used a piano type hinge) are fitted exactly, so that when the two parts are closed with a sheet of plastic in between, it should apply pressure all the way around so that the plastic doesn't pull away when heated. Hinge after the sandpaper is attached, and allow for the plastic thickness.
Glad that you like the idea of the wooden frame. I was too dumb to know of any other way. After all - it was a learning process for me, and that one frame produced 8000 covers without a flaw. Not bad for an amateur.
When you guys make your wooden frame, it must be very rigid. Also make sure that the hinges (I used a piano type hinge) are fitted exactly, so that when the two parts are closed with a sheet of plastic in between, it should apply pressure all the way around so that the plastic doesn't pull away when heated. Hinge after the sandpaper is attached, and allow for the plastic thickness.
Glad that you like the idea of the wooden frame. I was too dumb to know of any other way. After all - it was a learning process for me, and that one frame produced 8000 covers without a flaw. Not bad for an amateur.
10-24-2003, 11:44 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Chad,
Interesting..... Pull a canopy over the mold and then pull a canopy over the canopy....Hmmmmmmmmm...... VERY interesting.
I think I am going to build a box this weekend... Sunday doesnt look like a good flying day.
Tim is a very good friend and flying buddy. In fact we were chatting when I read your post. He said some VERY complimentary things about you! I haven't seen his Spit yet but hope to get over to his place this weekend.
If you happen to talk to Ray, tell him I said Hi!
Interesting..... Pull a canopy over the mold and then pull a canopy over the canopy....Hmmmmmmmmm...... VERY interesting.
I think I am going to build a box this weekend... Sunday doesnt look like a good flying day.
Tim is a very good friend and flying buddy. In fact we were chatting when I read your post. He said some VERY complimentary things about you! I haven't seen his Spit yet but hope to get over to his place this weekend.
If you happen to talk to Ray, tell him I said Hi!
10-24-2003, 12:33 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Nik, I thought either Ray or Tim had mentioned to me back in the days of RC Online that they knew you. I'm glad Tim is not talking trash about me! I doubt Ray would have been as kind! 
(just kidding) Good luck with your canopy and let us know how it works out.
(just kidding) Good luck with your canopy and let us know how it works out.
10-24-2003, 03:30 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Chad,
Where you ever able to find the phenolic board with the .10 hole spacing and use it in your box? Would be interested in your success with it......
Joe
Where you ever able to find the phenolic board with the .10 hole spacing and use it in your box? Would be interested in your success with it......
Joe
11-03-2003, 12:06 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
My vacuum box is built. I ordered and received the "Vacuum Forming Basics" from the website listed in this thread. It is an EXCELLENT primer on vacuum forming with a wealth of information. I have now read it cover to cover and made a Type 1 box.
My box is 24x12 (actually 22x12). Pegboard is cut but not put in as I need to make up some spacer blocks. I went to my local Hobby/Craft/Art supply store (Michael's chain) and they had squat for sheet plastic. Dad is looking up a piece of aluminum angle for me. I made the box that size to accomdate a canopy hopefully as that is my goal. I have a Rigid 4.5 hp shop vac as my hi-vol low vac source.
Chad, saw your handy work at Tim's the other night. He showed the the laser cut tail pieces you did for him. VERY nice.
My box is 24x12 (actually 22x12). Pegboard is cut but not put in as I need to make up some spacer blocks. I went to my local Hobby/Craft/Art supply store (Michael's chain) and they had squat for sheet plastic. Dad is looking up a piece of aluminum angle for me. I made the box that size to accomdate a canopy hopefully as that is my goal. I have a Rigid 4.5 hp shop vac as my hi-vol low vac source.
Chad, saw your handy work at Tim's the other night. He showed the the laser cut tail pieces you did for him. VERY nice.
11-03-2003, 02:33 PM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
Joe, I have not made a box with Phenolic board yet nor have I even looked around for some. Been way too busy! Sorry I can't be of help.
Nik, take a look at Jim Messer's approach to the frame. (post #65) I think his idea of a hinged wooden frame is much better than the aluminum angle that I'm using now. Of course, if you are only going to be making a single canopy then it may not be worth your time at this point. Anyway, let us know how it works out and thanks for the kind words.
Nik, take a look at Jim Messer's approach to the frame. (post #65) I think his idea of a hinged wooden frame is much better than the aluminum angle that I'm using now. Of course, if you are only going to be making a single canopy then it may not be worth your time at this point. Anyway, let us know how it works out and thanks for the kind words.
07-03-2004, 08:56 AM
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RE: Basic Vacuum Forming
This has been a helpful thread, I like the aluminum frame idea, very simple. I was copying some radial engines for my F2G project and noticed something. In the first picture the old Royal radial is on the left and the copy I made of the Top Flite is on the right. After looking at them I thought they looked very similar, but then I looked closer and I'll be damned! Top Flite copied the Royal radial! I even counted the fins on the radials and they both have the same # and the same imperfections! They changed 3 things: 1. They added rocker arms. 2. They extended the cylinders by about 1/16" and then added some bumps to the bottom. 3. They added some meaningless detail to the center case that will have to be cut away anyhow! How much do you have to change something to avoid a copyright infringement and then sell it as your own, is what Top Flite does a good example? Or if Royal is no longer in business can I just copy all the stuff they made without the worry of copyright infringement?
I also made some clear canopies, the problem I found with them is that you can get the plastic to close to the heat sorce. They will be smooth but not totally clear. For .60 size aircraft I use .030 for canopies. For the radial and cockpit interiors I use .015.
Dion
I also made some clear canopies, the problem I found with them is that you can get the plastic to close to the heat sorce. They will be smooth but not totally clear. For .60 size aircraft I use .030 for canopies. For the radial and cockpit interiors I use .015.
Dion
