Documentation question?
 

For those of you with experience, what is the preferred 3 view format? The 3 view on one 8.5" x 11" page, or should the views be separated onto single pages for a larger view? I have always heard that the fewest sheets of paper the better. So I was thinking of having my 3 view on one page. But then I would not want to lose points because the detail would not be large enough. Or maybe I do not want the detail larger!

One page is what I do. One of the things I am not sure of is but is what I do is supply the 3V in the published formant; no shrinking or enlarging. I dont think your supposed to modify without being reviewed by one of the scale VPs. I am also starting to give each judge his own copy of the documentation. I here it is best to not have them look together, because it promotes discussion of the flaws while sharing the pictures.

I was planning on using a copy of the page from one of my books. I think it is 1/72 scale. I have all of my documents otherwise for each judge, then I can hand them to each one and not have to let them share. It seems that the docs need to be just enough, but not too much. I am sure there are some secrets to this, and I will get clued into them one day, but we still have to fly, and that is a tough part of scale competition. I am just hoping the modifications I mam making now will pay dividends in the future.

Thanks for the help.

Your plane is already top.
I would like to see a top winner's docs. The best I have seen on the net was for world champ jets, but the rules are a little different, and one point there was a picture of Peter McDermott's Sopwith Tripe docs. I wish I could see that one again. The tough one is pictures trumps 3view and WW1 pictures are terrible..

[ The tough one is pictures trumps 3view and WW1 pictures are terrible..[/QUOTE]
If competing in a U.S Scale Masters qualifier,regarding WWI models - you may use "published" artwork such as plastic model box-top art to document for - Color & Markings
Also, you may use any color artwork or photos of planes in the particular squadron.
eg; lets say that you can obtain a color photo from the National Air & Space Museum to show the squadron's colors but the photo does not show your particular prototype,
that is acceptable. When proving the squadron's color & markings (unit codes) you don't have to show a color photo of your model's full-scale counterpart. But to prove
the personal markings such as nose art, for that you do need something to show colors. That can be difficult.
I know of one example of a Fokker DVIII where the builder uses all B&W photos but then also includes one artist color-plate to prove colors. This builder competes & wins in
TEAM Scale quite often. Documenting a WWI or any pre 1935 plane is very challenging but it can be done effectively. See sample picture of Wayne Frederick's Fokker.
Wayne consistantly earns a 98 or higher staic scores.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1998258

Fortunately, acquiring docs for my particular model are not difficult, as it is one of the most documented Fokker DVII's there was. I am more asking about specically how the judges like to see them organized and laid out. Having them is one thing, presenting them properly is another. That is really the heart of my question.

[. I am more asking about specically how the judges like to see them organized and laid out. Having them is one thing, presenting them properly is another. That is really the heart of my question.[/QUOTE]

Oops, sorry.
I'll try to explain.
You are entitled to 8 pages - not including the title page or the "Builder of the Model declaration" (BoM is for competing in EXPERT & TEAM class)
3 view drawings are NOT required but they do help the judges to "map out" their evaluation progression and to make notes for your reference.
The 3 views can be presented on either 8 1/2" x 11" or 11" x 17" size paper. You can provide extra 3 views for this note-taking if you desire.
You may also provide extra copies of the 3 views for each of the three judges to be used as a quide or for notes as well.
The three judges are trained to always use photos when in doubt about some details and NOT refer only to the 3 views.
...eg; say that your model has a 7 cylinder radial engine but on the 3 views it shows a 9 cylinder engine. (PT-17s used both)
the OUTLINE judge should refer to your photos to confirm this detail & NOT go by what's on the 3 view. *contestants are responsible for providing ample documentation for ALL details on the model*

Do not fall into the old trap of - "less is more"
You must provide proof of your decissions regarding color choices,markings placement,panel line placement,type - size - spacing & placement of rivets,type of rigging for bracing wires - flat or round,
the use of rib stitching or not, the use of pinking-tape or not, what type of hinges were used on your prototype, ....the list goes on. Any decissions you make, must be documented.

There are three static judges:
OUTLINE
COLOR & MARKINGS
CRAFTSMANSHIP
...and they should not be talking to each other EXCEPT to prevent a double downgrade. eg; the Craftsmanship judge may downgrade for incorrect nomenclature placement and needs
to verify that the Color & Markings judge did not make the same downgrade. Remember that the Craftsmanship judge may approach the model up to 4 feet to make his evaluations.
And the Color & Markings and Outline judges are 15 feet away.
The OUTLINE judge is to evaluate ONLY the plane's outline - in the sticktest sense of the word. He also evaluates the plane's "shape" - eg; on a F4U Corsair, the rear fuselage is NOT
flat sided as TopFlite would have you believe. It is rounded and this shape is hard to see using only a 3-view drawing. That's why you need to provide good quality photos taken from
all sides of the plane. A good OUTLINE judge can quickly & accurately evaluate a model's outline using only photos and they don't have to be taken at perfect right-angles to the fuse.
This is important to remember when there are no accurate 3-views available. Case-in-point: the Stinson SR-9

...so with all this in mind, it is important to just put yourself in the shoes of each judge and evaulate your own model and see if you have adequate proof of the details. And if you spend
2,3,4,5,6,7,8 years building a scale model for competition, don't you want credit for all of the little details that you put into it? That's why you should provide detailed photos of the small
details for the Craftsmanship judge.

The documentation book:
It must be in three parts. One for each judge. It is recommended to use a three-ringed-binder so you can quickly seperate the sections when presenting the model for judging.
You will hand each judge his or hers section (or placed in the appropiate box on the table)
The OUTLINE judge should have a view of the side - the front and IF available, the plan-form-view. Now that one is pretty hard to find photos for the plan-form-view. So, that's
where the 3-view drawings can help. As noted in my previous post, you don't have to show the exact same plane in your photos used for judging outline. HOWEVER, if you build
a model of a "one-off" or non-production plane, you will need to show a photo of that exact plane. But you may use any photo of a Fokker DVII to prove OUTLINE & SHAPE.
If you're replicating Ernst Udet's DVII, you do not need a photo of his DVII to prove OUTLINE. Because he flew a production plane, you may use any photo of any DVII.
But to prove COLOR & MARKINGS for Udet's DVII, you must have documentation of that particular plane.

The OUTLINE judge does not evaluate panel-lines,rivets,hatches,latches,spokes in wheels,number of ribs or stringers,whether or not your model has the "half-ribs"....all that stuff
is judged by the CRAFTSMANSHIP judge. The OUTLINE judge will look at - anything that is part of the outline. eg, nav-lights,trim tabs that are on the outside like on some rudders.
The shape of the cockpit "cutouts" and upper wing hand-holds IF they "break" the line of the trailing edge. Anything that "breaks" the line or protrudes like windshields,landing gear
struts,tires. All included. But things like the hatches on a SBD Dauntlass rear fuse are checked by the CRAFTSMANSHIP judge. The left side hatch is more square and the right
side one is round. These details are important to document.

So how do we arrange all that "Proof"? (in only 8 pages)

You need to be able to include multible photos on one page. Usually the OUTLINE judge gets a set of 3-views (with notes regarding differences between model and drawing)

and maybe one page of small photos (say, 6 on one page) to confirm small details such as the landing gear details, those trim tabs that break the outline of the wing or tail etc.

The Color & Markings judge gets enough photos to prove the size and placement of insignia,color chips,nomenclature like on the side of a Stock P-51D or PT-17, any stenciling,
stripes,lettering etc. Usually one or two sheets is enough.

The CRAFTSMANSHIP judge needs the most pages and detailed photos possible.Up to 4 pages is not uncommon.

Remember too that you may include an extra set of 3-views for each judge and those are not counted in the total page count.
So, just remember to seperate all the pages into three "packets", one for each judge.

Sorry for the LONG post.
Ken.

Here is my thought process on my last competition plane which was a Nieuport 11 and was campaigned for 3 years. I crashed it at the Hoosier Dawn Patrol last year, so it is no more. I participated at the Mint Julep, Scale Nationals all three years qualifying for the US Scale Masters each year and flying in the Masters once. The documentation was the same all 3 years.

It consisted of a direct scan from the Windsock Date Files of the 3 views (all 3 views on 1 page 8 1/2 by 11). I provided three copies of the 3 views to the judges. One stayed in my documentation book and one went to the color and markings judge and one went to the outline judge. All of these 3 views counted as only one sheet of the total allowable documentation per the AMA rule book.

For Color and Markings I used a color plate from the same Windsock Data file. This was used only to prove the color and markings and was not for anything else. This I tried to tell the judges each time because there were some differences between the 3 views and the color plate.

I had only one picture - a not too good picture from the data file and placed this on the cover sheet/builder of the model page which introduced my documentation. I never made any references on the 3 views or the color plate to this picture........I am not sure if the judges used it for proof of anything because of the photo quality, but rest assured if there were any discernible differences between that picture and the model, it would have shown in my static score.

I built my model using the 3 views as the guiding light for anything I did as I went along. My model outline matched as closely to the 3 views as I could build it. The color and markings were applied and again matched to the color plate as closely I could make it.


I think that my documentation packet was adequate per the rule book and met the minimum requirements. That being said, the more details which can be shown in your docs and reproduced on your model will enhance your score. The intent of the rule book is to provide a minimum requirement for documentation so as to establish a level playing field for competitors.

Enter into competition with this in mind and then after a year or two make up your own mind how far to go with your documentation.

Here are the actual pages.......

[ATTACH]1998437[/IMG][ATTACH]1998438[/IMG][ATTACH]1998439[/IMG]

Top Gun is a special case. Modified AMA rules and manpower to get a lot of airplanes through. Most Scale Masters Qualifiers will have only 2 judges that will see the whole class. They both have to do multiple things. I will say every time my plane has been judged, they do a quality job even if the plane is not up to judging standards. I set up a friends book once, and dang it he whipped me big time. He had a bunch of pictures, but I took out a bunch. I had taken the pictures with the eye to model building, that he used them was pretty cool. Left, right, front, back, and 3/4 shots front left, rear left, front right, rear right. There were probably 3 close ups of his details. That was all. Now his plane was a modern GA, a Bonanza, and mine was WW1. I went with minimum pictures the last time I had a plane at a contest,probably 3-4, but the judges told me they wish I had a few more. Tough to do with vintage pictures. Best to go with the smallest to get the job done

Thanks for the replies and info guys. I think these are the kinds of threads that can really benefit scale modelers.

I sort of decided to use my Fokker DVII for competition as an afterthought. That is, I went back to clean up my details, markings and colors after I was done with the model. It just so happened that I had acquired a lot of docs on the plane prior to the build, but I did not follow them as closely as needed to be competitive, as I really had not planned on it. Even right now, I am making some adjustments to my model to improve my scores.

I currently have 2 other models under construction that are competition models, primarily a 1/5th scale TA 152. It has been recommended to me as well to find your model, and stick with it. And the TA 152 is the one. I just need to get it completed. Meanwhile I want to continue to compete, so I will campaign the Fokker until I get it done.

For the Fokker, I am primarily using the Windsock data file Anthology 2, as it is really the best, most complete book on my subject.

Just for information..........my N-11 in its third year scored from 93 to 96.75 on the static table. Different contests and different judges and different scores.

It won its class in the Mint Julep all 3 years and placed in the top 10 at the Masters ..... I might have place 3rd last year at the Nats but never did get my plaque so I can't remember for sure.

The point being "go and compete" - that's the only way to learn what its all about ........ don't let what you might think of as a lack of documentation stop you.

Yah, I have had it in 2 Scale master's qualifiers. It has done OK. I think I was in the high 80's on my static. Some of the changes I have made will make a big difference. I am hoping to have it in the low to mid 90's now. I will find out at the Nat's this summer.

Going is the fun part; anything extra is just icing. Mine are really weekend planes that I try to make better than the norm at my field. I really like taking WW1 planes; they get a lot of respect even if not a top plane. Contest fliers knows what it takes just to show up.

Here is my entry. Lots of work actually updating it and adding the upgrades. Really happy with the radiator material. Makes a huge difference. Time to start flying my pattern!


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1999098http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1999100http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1999101http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/atta...mentid=1999102

Vert. She looks really great, good job!