RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Brad. I wouldn't say that face is ugly at all.. It's full of good character :)

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti,

Amazing work! I was lead here by Brad's Spitfire thread. I just answered all the questions I posed in his thread about his pilot by reading through thread start to finish. I really enjoy the creation process and seeing how you are refining both the process, the product and the business plan to make these offerings a success. Too often in this hobby, the talented efforts of many fail to endure to the point of producing a sustainable product. This is, of course, due to the many hardships, costs, and as you put it "learning experiences" along the way, associated with development. But it is also due to the relatively small market of modelers who will actually pay for such fabulous work.

However, I think you are on the right track and deserve a congratulations. In the interest of seeing you succeed (and my selfish desire to own one), I wold like to see a product develop that can endure long beyond the possible future of your own personal desire, drive and stamina - your passion for it all. Therefore, I would like to offer some thoughts, suggestions, as well as emphasize the things (in my humble opinion) you're doing right. For what it's worth.

What you're doing right:

1. The soft, lightweight, fully poseable, molded bodies in assorted scales. Spot on... No one is making them, everybody wants them, and these should be easy to replicate in quantity and therefore affordable to a greater market. (And as you identify, marketable to other doll makers).

Suggestion: The bodies should be offered for sale separately...probably as your first product offering and as soon as you feel settled with the design. Ramp up production based on the percentage of airplane models of various scales that are sold... I think other modelers would agree, 1/6 is the most affordable (and sold in the greatest quantity) scale of warbird/scale plane, sold by everyone from ESM to Topflight in arf form as well as kit. If you offer a reasonably priced 1/6 scale body figure, with or without a custom head...$50 worth of BBI will supply a head, a full uniform and accessories. They'll fly off the shelves...and could probably be purchased and offered for resale, in quantity, by US distributors. Remember that as the scale increases (1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2) the quantity of models and modelers decreases. However, there are no competing products in these larger scales either. Keep this in mind when determining production runs and inventory...and where you put your time and effort.

2. Recognizing that DESIGNING uniforms and accessories, and more importantly researching, creating patterns is worthy of your time and effort and produces a replicatable product in itself. Whereas sewing uniforms by hand, yourself does not. You are right on recognizing that sewing should be relagated to the Chinese or some modeler's better half if he/she lacks the skill. No one can pay you for sewing what your time is worth in the development of kits.

Suggestion: Again considering the above statements I would put all uniform effort into 1/5 scale and up...while BBI RAF pilots are hard to find, except for the (dessert uniformed Donald southerland) I would develop the larger scales...1/5 especially...these guys are buying expensive kits or scratchbuilding and would appreciate the subtle detail...later if you discover a highly sought after uniform that's selling well in large scale (like the RAF uniform you did for brad - which is awesome) and want to offer it in 1/6 scale...so be it. In fact, I guarantee that particular uniform, sold as a kit in 1/6, would sell, as it is virtually impossible to find the BBI doll anywhere. As for 1/7 scale (which is also a popular scale) or smaller...this is where clothing becomes ridiculous and painted pilots excel...above 1/7 your statement about average clothing versus average painted figure holds water...but 1/7 or smaller...an average painted pilot is better han nothing. Later down the road, an assorted collection of your custom heads, reduced to 1/7 or 1/8 scale, developed as lightweight full figured busts or full body, painted or unpainted, could certainly be an easy ally-oop. (A little off topic, but no pilot ever looks right in a "60" size warbird arf or a "40" size warbird...and the mfg's never tell you what the actual scale is...though I know it can be figured out from wingspan. It would be great to see a pilot collection marketed as "60" size...)

3. Producing custom heads...fabulous! Seeing Brad's head come into shape was incredible... At the end of the day, the uniform of a pilot of the RAF is the same for every pilot...but it is the face that makes a pilot unique. Concentrating on offering a stock of authentic pilot heads, modeled from the wars great aces and notables...the finishing touch to the modeler who has gone to great lengths to copy this famous pilot's plane. Either way...seeing a different mug in the cockpit other than, as one post stated, "the aces of iron guy" in the cockpit of every plane you own, is fantastic. The idea that you could have your own semblance? Really fun.

Suggestion: I know you're still in the RD phase and working out the kinks...but consider this (as I'm sure you have...or are starting to) I have only one comment: "facial expression." Most of these pictures of famous chaps that you are modeling from have them smiling and saying "cheese" for the camera... not the right look for a dog fight. Consider the facial expression and the eye line or line of sight - what is the pilot looking at, what is he doing? Part of the popularity of the aces of iron pilot is that he looks like he's engaged - two o'clock high or some such... Personally, a variety of head positions, expressions, and line of sight would be incredible...if you're going to model several actual RAF pilots as an example...set them up in different head positions, with different expressions...or better construct the head so it can be swiveled like the BBI offerings. ie..Make a standard neck/shoulder mold with a socket, and make the head with a neck that terminates in a mating ball.

As for your suggestion that the bodies be anatomically correct (which no one else seems to be commenting on...but I'm not so bashful) I think most pilots would agree...one size would be good enough...and that would not be a "small." ;)

I wish you both the best in your venture...Hope to see a website, pricing, and the like in the near future....And I for one would like an RAF 1/5 scale "Rick" pilot...like Brad's...let me know how to go about it in a PM. We will all talk you up in the forums for sure...But too much press too soon could be a disaster.

Lastly, sorry for the long post...I could have PM'd but I'd like others to have a chance to second my opinions or contradict...sorting out all of our thoughts and opinions is the best market research you can get... for free.

Best

Rick

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti, I dont know to much about starting a business but it sound s like Rick has some good points. I for one would like to see the 1/5 scale pilots made available.About the only things available are molded plastic paintable stuff. and they are not poseable.Keep up the great work and keep the puppy away from the prototypes.Waiting to see A 1/5 luftwaffe stuka pilot some time in the future.
Paul S.

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

I am very interested in the 1/3 pilot(civilian) when you have them available. Your work is awesome!!
Anthony

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

A comparison of sizes.
!/5th (14") to 1/6th at 12 inches.

Cheers,

Brad

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hello again and it's good to be back in communicado again after some tree lopping guy cut through the fibre optic cables in our area and cut 900 homes off the internet and the phone line as well [:@] You can imagine how frustrating it was being without it and then the phone company told me it would be FOUR DAYS til it was back up again. That didn't bare thinking about, but thankfully it's restored and life goes on as normal again :D

It's great to see you in the pilot seat Brad and an interesting comparison to the "little guy". Now that you have him in the flesh, do let me know if there's anything that's not right ie hand grip for your model, we did put the throttle ball in the left hand but if you don't want that it can be changed - remember you are the guinea pig! The Maewest is still a work in progress as I find more/better reference material but thought it was better to get it to you than wait til it was "perfect" (no such thing I know!). Is your Blue Box toy guy Canadian? It looks like the simpler style vest with the writing on the front saying "FRONT".

Rick - many thanks for all your comments. Your thoughts and suggestions are very much appreciated. I just hope that you're not a one finger typist or that would have been quite an epic :D

I have to agree with all your suggestions and that's basically where we're heading. This whole thing will just continue to develop and grow and as time goes on the range of heads and uniforms will accumulate. Each body, head and uniform can be scaled relatively easily to all the sizes once the initial work is done. Your suggestion of different head positions and expressions for each face is good, I was also thinking along the lines of the face/head with either dress cap or flying cap/goggles. For instance the Glen Curtiss currently being done with his dress cap could quite easily be offered with a flying cap and goggles. Certainly we can do a 1/6th body as a stand alone item to compliment the BBI uniforms, accessories and heads. I'll get on to that right away :D

I know a website is what's needed, it's just finding the time to get it all happening :( I'm also aware of not getting overwhelmed by too many things to do. That can take the fun out of it, and we are driven by the passion and the fun of it all.

I'd like to think that perhaps it's also a way of getting wives/other halves involved in the hobby that their partners spend so much time and effort on. If you can present them with a "doll kit" rather than asking them to make you a pilot it might be more enticing. I know that in years gone by Richard has presented me with the most horrendous looking pilot "kits" consisting of pimply latex skins to be stuffed with a bit of cotton wool and dodgy patterns with half baked instructions and I was less than enthusiastic to help out. The women that have seen these bodies love the shaped "buns" and the realistic look of them and are quite keen to make one.

Rick I will PM you about a head for your Spitfire tomorrow. We went out flying this morning, it's been almost a year since I've flown and it was SO good. Actually, we went last Saturday as well. But I'm sooo tired - all that concentration again :)

cheers
Patti

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti,

Thanks for your response...Fortunately, I'm a three fingered typist. :D Noticed a few typos, errors, after I posted...(Like the BBI RAF Pilot is Donald Moore not Donald Southerland - the actor...who knows where my brain was on that). No matter how much I proof it always seems a few get by.

I did not mean to overwhelm you. In fact, quite the opposite. I tried to identify a few ways to prioritize the project, beginning with products that will maximize cash flow and minimize cash (and time) outlay. As an example, the 1/6 scale BBI light weight bodies - easy to mass produce, and I believe, if marketed well, will sell like hot cakes. On a product like this you should really think about the price point...and consider the need for wholesale as well as retail mark up...better for you to ship and recieve payment on a case lot of a hundred or more, sent to distribution in USA...then trying to fulfill orders for one or two at a time. This will give you funding and time to pursue more development for custom heads, and the 1/5, 1/4 scale pilot offerings where you must generate the whole pilot. Also these custom projects and complete pilots (while more fun and creative) require a greater risk and investment of time. While there is little risk for a contracted, complete custom project with a one-off sale (like brad or myself), there is no way to leverage the time invested in development...I don't think my likeness nor Brad's is going to be selling off the shelf to anyone but us. Even the production of famous pilots like curtiss will assume certain risk given that it will be impossible to project sales. Some of these modelers are super picky...I see arguments over BBI dolls that have mismatched gear...some early war mixed with late war...really? Are we that obsessed? and who can say that a pilot never got stuck with an early issue May West, but got a new cap and goggles? It's silly...but this is your customer base.

One last comment...you mention somewhere in the thread about elongating the bodies so that they can be shortened...Seeing the "Brad" pilot next to the BBI...Brad does look a little like he's suffering from Marfan's Syndrom. He's a little stretched...and gangly...also seems a bit rounded in the shoulders. If the bodies can be shortened, how does one go about that? If they can not be shortened by the modeler, I would consider...revisiting proportions. Anyone else agree?

Patiently awaiting my PM....

Best,

Rick

One last

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti,

I know you are still in the development stage here but what are you thinking cost wise for these incredible looking figures. I have a quarter scale WW1 Spad 13 nearing completion and will be looking for a pilot sometime soon.

Cheers

Scott

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

This is a ME TOO post, Patti.

Sign me up for a full body, late war,1/4 scale Erich Hartmann. He's headed for a Meister Platinum 109 G-14. Consider this email a purchase request, or please put me on the list of next projects.... Of course, I'm interested in dressing the pilot in full Luftwaffe kit, and I know this may be a problem or require additional development time, but, I'm a patient man.

Keep up the good work, Patti.

Regards,
langerl

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi Patti, I would LOVE to have one of your fantastic"little people" in 1/6 th for my P-47? Let us know. Thanks, Guy

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi again

So many thought provoking suggestions and enquiries - and much thought it has provoked :). As everyone knows these pilots are in the development phase so it's difficult to price them. But I'll give you an idea of what we're thinking at this stage so you know whether to run in horror or add it to your Santa wish list in the future. We're trying to find a balance between making it worth our time, and being affordable to modellers and it's not going to suit everyone.

For an unpainted head, the poseable lightweight body, a pair of unpainted hands or gloves, a pair of unpainted boots/shoes, a pattern for uniform - pants, shirt, jacket (or civilian clothing) plus a kit of the bits to make up that uniform/clothing (cut out fabric pieces, thread, buttons, buckles, crosses, epaulettes etc ....) $200-$300 Australian. That's working on 1/4 scale, the smaller scales slightly less and the larger scales a little more but that's ball park.

Each of those items would be available seperately so if you just wanted a head or a different uniform kit or a spare pair of boots for when the dog eats the original ;) they'd be available.

Painting would be extra - probably $100 for the head or $150 for head, boots and gloves.

Obviously then the more a modeller can do themselves or get someone to do for them, the less outlay there is.

There will be a website in the future, it's all a matter of time to do everything, but it will happen. Then as we develop more products - heads, uniform patterns and kits, accessories like oxygen masks and parachute harnesses, a female range .... these will be added and available as seperate items for sale.

Now if anyone is still here :), I've had a look at Erich Hartmann and I can see why he's a popular choice. What an Ace! And his face reminds me of the kid in Harry Potter "Draco Malfoy", but that's a bit off subject. I haven't researched any of the German pilots and have no uniform reference as yet - WWII anyway so any pictures or info would be helpful for when I get to that. I've only looked into Von Richthofen and Hanna Reitsch.

We made a 1/6 body a while ago and managed to dig it out of the reject box today. It was a trial with the thinner wire but I don't think that is necessary and the weight saving isn't worth it for the lack of strength. It was so weak that the legs wouldn't bend at the hips properly, the foam body overwhelmed the wire. It might be good just in the arms. So we're cutting another 1/6 body plug to be moulded and will try the different internals. Since 1/6 accessories are so readily available we'd be happy to supply a body for those who wanted that and even heads in that size as Rick suggested.

Rick, you didn't so much overwhelm me as just give me a head spin with so much to think about! Mind you I am a bit blonde so not hard to do :D
To answer your questions about the body length and proportions, I didn't mean that the body torso length could be altered, just the limbs, by shortening them slightly - chop them off! The first body we made was more bulky and we felt that it was too bulky a look for a pilot in the Pacific in WWII on rations (that's where this whole pilot thing started for us, wanting a full bodied, poseable, 1/4 scale, 1944 Australian pilot!). They weren't big, buffed guys so we leaned him down a bit. After talking to Tom who was in New Britain (New Guinea) he said they all lost so much weight and his photos from that time reflected that. My Dad went over to over to England as a navigator in Mosquitos with the night fighter squadron and he was as thin as a rake! The 1/6 action figures that we have bought are built like "Arnie" with massive pecs and bulging shoulders. If you stand with your arms straight down at your sides, your hands will come nearly halfway down your thighs - or maybe I have a touch of Marfan's Syndrom :) With the Brad pilot, I tried to make his arms to those proportions. I'm only giving you the reasons the bodies have been made this way but open to suggestions. Speak now guys or forever hold your piece!! If you think they should be stockier you better say now before any more moulds are made. For the 1/6 body we're about to cut, we have "beefed" him up a bit so that the BBI/Dragon/21st Century Toys clothing will fit better since that's what they're made to fit.

Maybe in the future if we're doing more civilian or custom heads and the bodies need to be bigger we could do a modern, off the rations, more filled out, older version. Generally those 18-25 year old pilots tended to be skinny kids.

More food for thought for everyone but I have uniforms to make so better stop all the talking!

cheers
Patti

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti, I've looked at some data regarding "average" sized men during WWII. I think 5'7"- 5'8" is about average. This would yield a pilot of about 13.5-13.6 inches. Or you could make them 13.5 and be just fine.
Something to consider is that our planes typically have less room inside the cockpit for the pilot compared to the full sized planes. Our materials are often thicker etc taking up inside room.

So what I'm saying is that a shorter pilot would be a plus IMHO.

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

I tend to agee with Bob,,I think 13 1/2 or 13 3/4 would be ideal for 1/5 scale.At a true 1/5 scale a 5' 9" figure would measure out to 13.8" . A lot of 1/5 planes are actually at 2.25" per foot scale which is slightly smaller than actual 1/5, but still larger than the 1/6 or 12' figure from BBI or Dragon.I have a Dragon stuka pilot whose hand is way too small to grip the MG81z thatI scaled at 2.25" to the foot.

Paul S.

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

All good Patti,

How about a compromise on stature. Not Arnold...not Abe Lincoln...:D :DBrad looks proportonal...for the NBA. ;) The guys are right..a lot of 1/5 planes are really 1/5.5 (I think the yellow kit is 1/5.5). And things do get cramped in the cockpit with the challenges of scaling down.

Pricing seems on target for the larger scales, painting and custom heads...all good. What's the exchange rate now? Anyone?

I was hoping those 1/6 light weight bodies could mate to BBI heads, hands and feet...and retail in the ball park of $50-75 dollars...You know more about your production costs...but if you could settle on a plug and even have them mass produced on the cheap...that price point would give a 1/6 arf guy a lightened pilot for $125 total cost. I think this is the outside price point to convince them to buy your body rather than drill the BBI doll full of holes (which I've seen guys do) or just live with the extra ounces.

Blondes have more fun...looking forward to your WASP pilots. After all, there's a lot of down time between sorties...;)

Got my answers here so don't sweat responding to my PM about cost...and got it on the custom head price...which is fine. Now I just need to setlle on scale...1/6 or 1/5.

Rick

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Gidday to all

We're doing the 1/6 body with a bulkier physique so that the BBI/Dragon etc clothing range will fit it properly rather than the leaner, meaner look. For the other scales, if someone wanted their pilot to look shorter and stockier it's just a matter of nipping that 1/4" off the wire at the bottom of the legs and arms and you could even add some shoulder pads if the jacket and MaeWest didn't do the job sufficiently.

The 1/6th heads could be made to mate with the body - at least the one we have does. Not sure which brand it is but it has a hollow neck so you can just trim away enough of the foam and push the wire loop inside the head. It even turns side to side so you can position it. Once we get a bit more organized we should be able to supply the 1/6th bodies for that price you mentioned Rick $50-$75, probably the lower end.

I'm currently making the suit for Curtiss - a 1910 style long jacket and it's giving me a few challenges. On to the 3rd one, the others have gone in the bin :) but it's nearly there.

cheers
PAtti

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

I have a feeling, after what I've seen here, that I would love to dumpster dive for your mistakes. In the land of OZ do you have dumpsters ordo you call it a rubish containor? What ever you call it I am sure there are some not quite rights in there that would be more than perfect for what I need.

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi Patti,
i have to say you work on these scale pilots is just great,i am just starting the build of a large scale Transavia PL-12 airtruk topdressing aircraft in 2.2/1 scale and would really like a scale pilot to suit
i would like my pilot to have white overall's and gentex style helmet,if you would be interested in this i can forward you pics etc of what i would like
Again you work is outstanding

regards
cam

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi Patti, I just stubbled across you post and those scale pilot figures are amazing. There is such a market out there for scale pilot figures, full body and posable. I also love your avator as I m a collector of Betty Boop items. I am working on a 1/5 Scale L-19 Bird Dog Viet Nam era and would be interested in a Betty Boop Figure 1/5 Scale like the one pictured. She Wouldn't fit into the VN Era but would be a nice touch for a back seater. As you see, she is also tattoed on my wrist. Love your work. Just advise me of cost, plus cloths, I am an able painter.

Rich F

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Oh by the way Patti, how about my head on the pilot figure?
Thanks Rich F

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

No, we don't call them dumpsters here in Oz but I know what you mean Scott ... just plain rubbish bins, or how about hiring a "skip"? There certainly are lots of rejects in the learning process but I wouldn't want them spread around the place :)

Cam, when you're closer to needing your pilot I should be at a stage to look at a gentex helmetted guy for you. If you're just starting your build that will give me some breathing space :) There are one or two heads and uniforms that are on my priority list right now but that wouldn't be a problem a little further down the track and to put him into a pair of white overalls.

Rich, love your tat and what a great back seat driver (pilot) she would make :D I'd love to make a Betty Boop, once again, let me get my immediate list ticked off then I can work on Miss Boop. She has a singlet on in your pic and having bare arms mightn't look so good with the raw body showing. I thought maybe a long sleeve skin tight shirt with the singlet top over it, that way you still get the full bend of the arms. If we moulded bent elbows as in the salute, it does restrict the poses you can put her in. Anyway, something for you to think about in the meantime.

The same goes for doing your head as the pilot - until we've done a number of well known or famous aviators/actors/personalities I don't want to take on personal heads, they are just too time consuming but later on as time permits that's certainly on the cards.

Just scroll back up this page a little and you'll find my post on cost.

My pattern making is coming along, no pics as yet. I've been helping Richard make the 2nd part of the P-47 fuse mould. It's a practice one before he launches into the moulding of the big Boomerang to try out new techniques and ideas. We've got to have planes for our pilots too :) Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll have Glen Curtiss somewhat dressed. He should look quite dapper :)

cheers
Patti

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti, are you now officially taking orders? If so, I would like to get in the queu for a 1/4 scale Manfred von Richtoven. Do you require deposits? Thanks...........John Olson

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi John

I have a list of priorities to get done and Manfred is definitely on the list, it's just a matter of what order. Since I've basically done the uniform for Brad's Spitfire pilot (it just needs refining and some instructions done) I'd like to do a head or two to go with that - Don Blakeslee sounded good and probably a Ben Affleck head as well.

An American WWII Pacific - Pappy and Ira Kepford probably. The uniform is pretty simple and fairly similar to the Australian one I've already done so it's mainly the US MaeWest that needs sorting. That should be reasonably quick to do as well - famous last words ;)

I've made a good start on Manfred's head already but it can be improved, I think back then he was cut from foam - early days :) I'm finding that at this stage it's the pattern making of the uniforms which is now taking the longest so as a suggestion to get it happening quicker for you,I could do a trench coat and those wide trousers like jodphers as a quick start? I really want to do the whole uniform as pictured here http://www.usmbooks.com/manfred_von_richthofen.html but that would take much longer to sort all that out. Once I've done the other jackets - the leather flying jacket with the fur collar and the double breasted dress jacket with the high collar, you could add them if you wanted to. I'd like to do 2 versions of the head - one with a flying cap and the other with the dress peaked cap then you can choose the look you're after. Let me know what you think.

And a WWII German - Erich Hartmann is a must. I haven't looked into that uniform yet so that will take more sorting but the head will come first.

Of course all these heads and uniforms can be done in more than one scale.

Once that list is ticked off I can start on some of the other requests. A bit of patience is required but the selection will grow over time.

cheers
Patti

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Hi Patti
Just curious, Is it possible to do a German 1/2 scale pilot? What price range would we be talking?
Thanks,
TomK.

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Thanks Patti, since he'll be "piloting" a scale flying model I prefer to have him in full flight dress,wearing a leather flying helmet and if available, goggles. I'm in no big hurry so just let me know when you get to that point and I'll order him to be shipped. Ill PM you my email address..............John

RE: Scale poseable pilot making
 

Patti,
1st of all I think you are doing excellent work!!! I will have to get a pilot from you when you get things in order.

There is a serious void in the availability for giant scale full body pilots as I have discovered with my 33% Waco and I am getting ready to build a 33% Cub with a 33% Curtis Jenny planned in the future(would love to have a 33% Glenn Curtis for the cockpit). I know several people who are searching for a 42% Full body civilian pilot as well.
Keep up the exciting work and I will definetly order some pilots from you in the future.
Best of Luck!!
Anthony