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RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Hi Rich,
That works too. More than works. Hope you're having a wonderful Christmas day. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...eeth_smile.gif Merry Christmas. Bob |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
ORIGINAL: Sound Sailor Rich those beams were most likely spreaders used to keep the slings from crushing the cabins and sides when lifted by the crane.. As you saw, I did surmise she would have likely hada cradle kept at Pedersons for dry dockage there. Cradles would be a cumbersome item to move around a lot. Bill I'm sure when Dauntless was sold the next owner probably didn't bother taking it. -Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Hi captains,
Today I will resume on the cradle! -Rich |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Hi captains,</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Yesterday the final two sets of supports were installed on the cradle. Afterwards I began wetting the wood by rubbing epoxy into the wood by hand. This ensures that the epoxy will soak in for maximum strength and the finish won’t be lumpy and require lots of sanding. This is a messy process but I find it to be worth it especially in areas where strength is needed. I went through three tubes of epoxy and need more epoxy to continue. I think one or two more tubes should complete this part.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Today I will pick up more epoxy and also some balsa wood. Because balsa is soft it will become the contact point between the hull and the cradle.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Before the balsa is added the entire cradle will be painted gray to match the hardware on the yacht. I’m still trying to decide which color to paint the cradle. I like the idea of either gull gray and light sea gray because it ties in with the colors on the yacht. Aluminum paint is another idea but the final choice needs to be made.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">What do you guys think as far as color goes, military gray's or aluminum?</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">-Rich.</div>
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RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Hi Rich,
Aluminum. It's not "part of" the boat but rather a 'support' for the boat therefore separate from the boat when (the boat is) in operation. Bob |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Mixed feelings here Rich. The aluminum would provide a real contrat to the boat and be striking but that is a double edged sword in that it might take the eye away from the boat. Also I'm not sure if the aluminum alloys of the time would be strong enough to hold a boat of her size and weight. I would imagine steel would have been the material of choice. You can get steel color paints in hobby stores and if you wanted you could even weather it with rust as it most likely would apear with exposure to sea water and then air exposure .
Your choice. Bill. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Ivote for military grey or drab. Make it look like a PTboat cradle that was grabbed for Dauntless when she was pulled out of the water. One of those "unexpected stop" type of things. Maybe Haze Grey with some white stencilling on it showing military use or surplus. Just my 2c worthhttp://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...ular_smile.gif</p> |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
I stand corrected, by Bill. Wasn't thinking of aluminum aloys of the period not being strong enough to hold up a boat the size of Dauntless. That being said, the obvious answer would be steel, that is what was available so that is what it would/should have beeen made of. Color? I think it should be in contrast to your Dauntless, that is why I "jumped" on aluminum so fast.
Bill also has the great point of weathering it with rust. The only time it would be "perfect" is the day it was manufactured. Bob |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
I agree, rusted steel is the only way to go to look "authentic"
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RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
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<div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">You guys Rock!!</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Thanks for helping me push the envelope on this build!!</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">I agree with you all, going with the weathered rusty steel look is the way to go. And to Orcatkt’s point about the stenciling what you think of a weathered marking somewhere where it can be seen?:</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">“Property of Elco PT Boat Division, Bayonne N.J.”</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Being that the Elco yard was in a relatively close proximity to where Dauntless was on the Hudson it would be plausible that a cradle could have been scored. We know this didn’t happen but its one more piece that hints Dauntless to a military type heritage.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">I haven’t weathered anything in the past but have always wanted to because it does look cool. I found a few samples of weathered cradles online for you all to check out. The posted cradle below shows certain areas that are rustier than others. I’ll take some of the clues on this cradle to get ideas..</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Also is a link about weathering techniques.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Today I’ll take a run over to a local hobby shop that specializes in trains. I’m sure they can give me some great pointers about weathering techniques..
The below pictures also remind me to repaint the bottom of Dauntless to be flat red to look like anti-fouling paint. I will likely paint it with a small brush so it doesn't look perfect.</div>http://www.trainweb.org/danderso/tip...ring-tips.html -Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Further thoughts if Rich decides to go with steel. Rusted may or may not be desirable for museum display. On one hand he might not like the "aged" look in a museum . On the other hand the boat will be pristine like it would be in the spring when just painted before launching. Since it is modeledas the boat appeared after it was first built, the cradle would have seen some use already. If going for the spring ready for launching look then maybe some splotches of bottom paint would also be more realistic.
The spring fresh paint, ready for launching, look sure hits home with me as I did side work in a Connectiut boat yard in that time of year back in the 60's. All that toxic copper oxide or bronzebottom paint! Still it didn't smell as bad as fall haulout with the grunge and barnacles to be scraped.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...used_smile.gif Bill edited to add: I didn't see Rich's post above when I typed this so did'nt know his decision. Notice in the shots above how fouled the hull is so it must have been being hauled for cleaning and painting. Looks alot like oil sludge which is sort of funnywith those oil tanks in the bacground. Notice also in the stern shot there is some bottom paint on the cradle as i suggested there would be. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
That stern shot sure is interesting. Looks as if the center shaft was not used since the bronze is not as exposed as the other two. The starboard prop has some minor damage also. You can also just see some of the bottom paint on the rudders and struts. All in all this shot appears to tell methat the boat may not have been in service for some time and been sitting in the oil fouled water in Bayonne for a while. Possibly it was being put back in service or being scrapped.
Bill As they say in football, "upon further review" I believe that boat was on it's way to being scrapped. The armament has been removed as well as it is one of the early wood boats. After WWII there were many naval boats just mothballed in the Hudson River until scrapped. In Stony Point there was a whole fleet of Victory ships that were moored togethed and used to store grain. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
PT-658 wasn't an early boat. It was a 78 footer laid down at the New Orleans Higgins plant in February of 1945, launched in April and finished July 30th. It was redesignated a small boat August 27, 1946. This particular boat is now berthed in Portland Oregon after a rebuild and is still under restoration as shown here http://www.warboats.org/pt_658.htm
As for the center prop, there was a reference to the center engine having a problem so I'm going to bet the shots Rich posted were actually taken within the last decade in Portland after the rebuild and not after WWII, especially since the picture to the right has the date printed on it of December 10, 2007:D The cradle the boat is sitting on/in was used to hold PT 659 according to the web site but doesn't say what happened to the other boat You can see a lot more info on PT 658 , including a very comprehensive photo record of the boat's restoration at this site as well http://www.savetheptboatinc.com/index.htm I found Pt 657 and 659. PT 657 was listed as being a privately owned charter fishing boat in San Diego. PT 659 was in Vancouver Washington until scrapped ala Dauntless May 30, 2008. Part of the 659 was used to restore PT 305, now on display at the National World War II Museum, with the remainder of the boat and cradle pictured above being cut up and shipped to a wearhouse in New Orleans |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Thanks for the info and the link. Lots of info there. Evidently the photos Rich posted are from when it was being delivered to the group for restoration. Again in those shots she appeared neglected which this would explain: <font size="2" face="TimesNewRomanPSMT"><font size="2" face="TimesNewRomanPSMT"><p align="left"></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">“The owner replaced the gas-guzzling</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">Packard engines with smaller diesel</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">engines,” Wiedmaier said. “But when</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">he took it out in the open ocean, the boat</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">beat him up so much he gave up his</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">dream and parked it against a dock in</span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">San Francisco where she deteriorated for</span></p>
<span style="font-size: x-small">almost 50 years.” Were all the Higgins boats wood? Bill</span></p></font></font> |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
All of the Higgins and Elco boat classes that saw combat were made from wood and powered by Packard built engines. I also found a reference to a Naval trial that had several boats racing along a given route including a couple of aluminum boats but, due to slower speeds, the aluminum boats were never produced. As a result of the trial, contracts were given to Elco, Higgins and Huckins. Huckins only built 18 boats that never went into combat areas. One thing I did find was that, contrary to popular belief, the engines WERE NOT based on the Rolls Royce Merlin but rather a WWI engine. Some features of the Packard built Merlins were later included due to being manufactured by the same company but, in general, the engines weren't anywhere close in design. Here's information given from the PT 658 site about the marine Packards:
These engines are 4 stroke, water cooled, 60 degree, V- type with a 6-3/8" bore and 6-1/2" stroke, for a total of 2490 cubic inches of displacement. Each engine has 48 valves, 2 inlet/2 outlet per cylinder. They have a compression ratio of 6.4:1, and are fitted with a gear-driven centrifugal supercharger and intercooler. The engines are installed with a Holley 1685F aircraft-type carburetor, and use aircraft- type dual magneto sparks, with 2 spark plugs per cylinder. The engines develop 1500 Hp at 2500 rpm.Max revolutions is 3000 rpm. Engine weight is 3100 pounds. These engines were designed to burn 100 octane aviation gasoline to achieve nominal power output. 3000 gallons of 100-octane aviation gasoline (AVGAS) is enough to last 12 hours or 520 miles with engine speed limited to 2000 rpm. This works out to about 66 gallons of gasoline per hour, per engine at cruising speed of 35 knots. At maximum rpm, achieving 42+ knots, each engine consumes 166 gallons (or 500 gallons for all 3 engines) per hour. (3000 gallons lasts about 6 hours at top speed!) The gasoline is held in four 750 gallon self sealing rubber-lined gas tanks. Here are the specs on the Merlin: Type: 12-cylinder, supercharged, liquid-cooled, 60° "Vee", piston aircraft engine. Bore: 5.4 in (137.16 mm) Stroke: 6.0 in (152.4 mm) Displacement: 1,647 cu in (27 L) Length: 88.7 in (225.3 cm) Width: 30.8 in (78.1 cm) Height: 40 in (101.6 cm) Dry weight: 1,640 lb (744 kg)[nb 15] Performance Power output: * 1,290 hp (962 kW) at 3,000 rpm at take-off. 1,565 hp (1,167 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 12,250 ft (3,740 m, MS gear)[nb 16] 1,580 hp (1,178 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 23,500 ft (7,200 m, FS gear) Specific power: 0.96 hp/cu in (43.6 kW/L) Compression ratio: 6:1 Fuel consumption: Minimum 39 Imp gal/h (177 L/h), maximum 88 Imp gal/h (400 L/h)[nb 17] Power-to-weight ratio: 0.96 hp/lb (1.58 kW/kg) at maximum power. Doing a little more research, I found the Packard to be closer to the later Rolls Griffon. I included the Griffon specs below, again for comparison: Original Application Avro Shackleton reconnaissance plane Engine Type V-12 Piston Aero Engine, 60° "V" (angle between banks) Material Aluminum crankcase, cylinder banks and heads; Alloy pistons; Steel liners, rods, cranks, etc. Bore x Stroke 6.0" x 6.6" Compression Ratio 6.0:1 Supercharger Type Two-speed, single-stage centrifugal 13.4" impeller Supercharger Ratio Medium Speed (MS) - 6.615:1, Full Speed (FS) 7.70:1 Boost Control Automatic via Rolls-Royce auto boost regulator, w/increased boost when ADI active Fuel System Speed/Density type Fuel Injection (injected into eye of supercharger) Weight 2,000 lbs Power 2,450 HP takeoff at 2,750 RPM at SL with 25 psig boost using 115/145 PN fuel Performance 0.82 lbs/hp, 314 psi BMEP, 0.42 lbs fuel/hp/hr SFC Max. Piston Speed 3,025 ft/min Total Manufactured Approximately 8,000 |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Wow Lots of great post’s guys! I’m lovin’ the history lesson! http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">The three main companies making PT boats were Elco, Higgins and Huckins. The Elco’s were made in Bayonne, NJ, Higgins was made in New Orleans and the Huckin’s were made in Jacksonville Florida.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: medium">T</span>oday I made a trip to two different hobby shops in Connecticut. First Was to Anne’s where she specializes in trains. I bought two ½ oz Model Master ‘Steel’ paint while I was there. She advised that ‘Rust-All’ makes one of the best rust paints on the market and she showed me a sample of some rusty train wheels and cars done with the stuff. The stuff looks great. I even asked her if they were made of metal and then I caught myself. She assured it was made of plastic. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/biggrin.gif
She was out of stock on the Rust-All but is ordering it for meso I should have it on Tuesday.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Then it was off to the next hobby shop. This one was Hobby City. I had to exchange something there for a LIPO but then started checking out their paint selection. Their selection of colors is not as big as Anne’s but then I started thinking about bottom paint. I was looking at the oxide Red’s when one color caught my eye. It is called ‘SIGNAL RED’. This color stood out like a sore thumb because I have heard of the color before. It was listed as one of the main paint colors on Dauntless’s inventory of paint. For the longest time I scratched my head trying to find out where Signal Red belonged but nothing above the water line was painted red. So then it hit me that the color must belong below the waterline!! It was bottom paint. </div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">So I went ahead and ordered 1 oz of that paint because they only had ½ oz bottles in stock and 1 oz cost only a dollar more. This color paint is made by Testors.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Hi Bill & all</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">I think the idea of a rusty cradle is fine for even a museum display. It will give the display a bit of character because it’s not so neat and clean looking. This will help with the realism style that I’ve been pushing for with Dauntless.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">A while back I mentioned that I want to build a carrying case with wheels for Dauntless. When I build it, the cradle will be set up to fit inside and secured to the base with wing nuts.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">Last night I finished epoxying the cradle. The cradle took four tubes of epoxy. Tonight I will begin sanding it. Now that we decided to make it look legit I’ll plan on adding small wood strips to all of the corners to make them resemble ‘I’ beams. Once they are in I can begin painting it. I only have tonight and tomorrow to work on it before the New Year so I plan on pushing some serious late-nighters on it to see how far I can go.... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/redface.gif</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt">-Rich.</div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"></div> |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Rich, while in Hobbytown you should have gone over to the train section by the far wall from the sales counter.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif
Bill |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
OOOhh I've been there!!! It is way too tempting in that corner!! Same with Anne's in Cos Cob, lots of good railroading stuff in there..
All I need is another hobby! http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gifAs a kid I used to play with my father's Lionel trains. Good stuff. Someday when I have the extra space I may flirt with trains as a project. I get carried away easily with those so I would need an entire room forthem. I loved trains as a kid especially because my grandfather was an NYC motorman and he used to take me to the train yard in Brooklyn. It was a blast for any five year old boy! http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/biggrin.gifBack then they even had some of the old derilict trolly's from the 20's & 30's that he let me go in and check out becauseI liked those too. I have a large 80" long HO scale RC ocean liner that is over 50 years old. After Dauntless I plan on restoring it and add many HO scale figures and accessories from the train section for it. Before you know it there will be train running to and from the ship.. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...sn/biggrin.gif -Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
You're lucky Rich, your ship is HO scale. I wasn't so lucky as the wife wanted something bigger when she bought a train. She went with a 1:22 scale "G" sized LGB set. I wouldn't want to see a ship made in that scale as it would probably be over 15 feet long[X(]
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RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Hi Hydro,
As far as trains go I like the larger ones best but this ship has me thinking small because it would be cool to have a ship docked on a long pier with trains running alongside it. When it's time to sail it simply lift the ship out of the 'water' and pack it up and go to the pond. The cool thing about train scale is that there is so much stuff available for it. I can even set up static tug boats and any other vessel in the water and have trains, cars, truck people and small buildings all around it. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif Then i'm sure I would get carried away... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqkgo...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ho3W...eature=related -Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Rich - I have not tried Rust-All, but here are a few methods I've used with my model railroad cars, buildings, steel bridges, etc. that I think would work well with your cradle. I think if you do it right, an accurately weathered cradle would look great on public display and add to its visual appeal. It's quick and easy once you get the hang of it, and the results look incredibly realistic in my experience/opinion. And with these methods you control precisely where and how much environmental abuse is simulated... pretty cool!
I start with a 'wash' by mixing a cap full of rubbing alcohol and a drop or two of black calligraphy ink. Gravity settles the wash into the corners and crevices, just as dirt and grit would settle in a full scale world. Then it quickly dries and leaves a nice subtle weathered look, also dulls shiny surfaces. I 'dry brush' PolyScale off-white paint on various corners and dark areas where I want to bring out tiny details. Sort of like emulating oxidation from the elements. (may not make much impact on your cradle if the gray paint you used is very light in color) I use artist chalks in various earthy colors, applied with a Q-tip. Red/rust colored chalks especially make some great rust pockets anywhere you think they'd appear naturally. I also clear coat the end result to preserve it. Check the model railroad forums and commercial sites on the web for hundreds of ideas and examples on weathering. You'll be a pro in no time. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Thanks for the tips Dauntlessfan. It should be fun trying to weather this thing..
I spent a couple hours last night sanding this thing.... It still has a long way to go. Recently I bought a LIPO powered Dremel to replace a broken Dremel I had. The broken Dremel was the third Dremel I went through on Dauntless over the past buch of years! The LIPO powered one is junk compared to the plug in version so today I will bend and pick up a plug in Dremel at Hobby City... I'm not happy to spend money on another Dremel.... I have a few brushes forthe Dremelthat should speed up the sanding process. Hopefully I can push through more today.. Ah yeah, tomorrow I got a pass from the 'Mrs'so I will have more time to push on the cradle.... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...wink_smile.gif -Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Today I went to the hobby shop to pick up a Dremel. They only had the Dremel 100 series which only goes slow and fast, no variable speed. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...ngry_smile.gifAt this point i'm tired of spending top dollar on Dremels so I went on e-Bay and spent 19.99 plus shipping on a variable speed Rotary tool with a 1 year warrenty and a 100 piece fitting set. This will save me a bunch of money but I really wanted the thing today. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../msn/frown.gifTonight more hand sanding will happen. I have to find the charger to the cordless Dremel so I can at least get some use out of it over the next day.... It suddenly vanished when we were prepping the house for the Christmas festivities..This happens when I put things in a 'safe place' andthen have a hard time finding it later on.. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f.../msn/75_75.gif
-Rich. |
RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
I learned a long time ago that the quickest way for ME to loose something is to put it in a safe place. :)
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RE: the unofficial home of the dumas dauntless
Rich, have you seen the new 2 motor control xmtrs that Harbor has? Looks good for the Dauntless.
Bill |
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