The cutaway Tiger is "712" which was displayed in the USA for a long time; it is now in the Kevin Wheatcroft collection and its ownership is, Ibelieve, in dispute.

David

rivetcounter, my apologies, the scan came from another book.
So, may Iask what was the exact wording in the Haynes manual?

It is possible that, in some cases, the head that we see belongs to another crew member; the gunner.
But I still think that it's the driver in the majority of cases.

David

Perhaps he just stuck his head out for the camera.  I would.

While there is probably no doubt that the Tiger 1 was not designed to be operated with the driver with his head out, never underestimate the ingenuity of the soldier’s ability for field modifications and improvements.

Dyrden, please patience as I said earlier I would be away for Pfingsten at Munster.
Panther D and A along with all models of Tiger I the driver was unable to drive in a heads up position for the following reasons

Seat, foot controls and steering wheel are none adjustable and permanently bolted in place to move the seat back or indeed raise the height then this must be unbolted and either moved back or forward or have spacers placed under the legs of the seat the Bovington Tiger has 12mm spacers beneath its seat.

Drivers vision port and hatch are off centre, the driver/ radio operators hatch opens half over the sponson meaning that the driver would have to lean to the left at about 35-40 degrees also the driver is sat slightly forward of the hatch, to see what I’m talking of try driving your car with your head out of the sun roof without pulling your seat back and also placing a ledge around the start of your ribs to represent the sponson

There is room at the back of the driver for the gunner who is the only member of the crew not to have a hatch to peer over the shoulders of the driver there is film footage of a captured Panther A with a guy doing just this he is giving instructions to the driver the Panther is crewed by US troops.

Study pictures from Africa this is a hot country where if it was possible for the driver to drive heads up then he would do so, you won’t find a single picture of a driving Tiger in this manner instead you will find the crew 4 members sat on the outside of the tank just imagine the heat inside with the sun the engine and transition at your side, also study your Tamiya Tiger notice the location of the hatches and drivers vision port.

Tomorrow I will give you the exact wording I won’t scan and post the picture of the page due to me respecting copy rights.

Kind regards from Belgium.

Hi riivet counter

Under the fair use policy as enshrined in both European and USlaw, its ok to reproduce limited amounts of copyrighted material provided it is for non-profit educational use of a kind unlikely to impinge the profit generating capacity of the original.

<blockquote class="toccolours" style="padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 15px; padding-right: 15px; display: table; float: none; padding-top: 10px"><dl> <dt><font color="#0645ad">17 U.S.C.</font><font color="#3366bb">&sect;107</font></dt></dl>Notwithstanding the provisions of sections <font color="#0645ad">17 U.S.C.</font><font color="#3366bb">&sect;106</font> and <font color="#0645ad">17 U.S.C.</font><font color="#3366bb">&sect;106A</font>, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:<dl> <dd>

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

</dd></dl>The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference"><font size="1"><font color="#0645ad"><span>[</span>1</font></font></sup></blockquote>p

You know, it is dangerous to assert a negative; to say that something is impossible, or that something does not exist.
Because, how can you be sure it does not exist, unless you search the whole universe?


Or, you could roll up a thick blanket and place it on the seat.

So, you would have to lean over? Place your elbow on the sponson.


Iactually did arrange some furniture to represent the Tiger's layout exactly, and Iwas able to "drive".


Panthers are not relevant to this question.

Or, if it were uncomfortable, maybe he would not wish to do so.
You don't know what those people were thinking.

See, there, you are asserting a negative.
It took me 2 minutes to find this photo, taken in Tunisia:



David

I have to say....unless that driver has a rubber neck, he does not look like he is doing what I think he would have to do to get his out.

But it does look like someone coming up from behind him. If his head was tilted...I would say OK.

But it isnt,.

p

Byrden, my friend you may have rearranged your furniture but this will never reflect the real thing whereas Bovington do have the real thing not believing it possible 4 years ago I e-mailed them and the response was “no it can’t be done” now I have no reason to believe they were trying to miss lead me, simply leaning over and placing your elbow on the sponson is only half the battle you also have to have your right foot stretched to the throttle peddle and hold your weight on the left foot and elbow.
Does the camera lie, “technically no” but we interoperate what we wish to see, I forgot about the picture you posted but our Cameraden Iposter is right the guy with his head out of the hatch is vertical as opposed to leaning painfully to the left with his head tilted to the right, do you agree that it would be far easier to have another member of the crew behind you with his head out of the hatch tapping the driver on the appropriate shoulder as to direction.
What about the offset nature of the hatch in relation to the drivers vision port or is that another negative, please think from the drivers position up.

Yes, but that is not relevant to this question. We are asking whether the driver's position is possible. What, never? Why not?

Seriously, I want to read your answer. Ispent time setting up that furniture. Ihad measurements that Imade myself inside a Tiger. Now, you've posted in public that Ifailed and wasted my time and Ican't possibly succeed. Why can't I?

But did they use it to answer the question? Did they take a tall man, and a selection of seat cushions, and did they tell him to get in that position by any means possible? The book also says that the people in the photos could be sitting in the pannier. But if you sit in the pannier, and you are a normally sized adult, you will put your arms outside. It is 45cm tall. I really don't think that the Bovington staff conducted those experiments. I think they are writing assertions and making assumptions, without going to their tank for an exhaustive test. So, it is possible. You just told me how to do it! I have been considering that all along. I am somewhat familiar with the Tiger.

Could you draw in how a man could get his head out the hatch, being vertical from the chin up and keep both feet on the pedals?

I just do not see how that can be achieved. At all.

P

Sorry, lposter, Ican't draw people.

And do you know what that proves?

It proves that I can't draw people. Nothing more.

Icannot draw either. BUt Ican paste a bit and according to the attached picture and your shot from Tunisia, Icannot see for the life of me how one can fit in the rest of his body. The spine only bends so much in the lateral direction..........

p

That's unfortunate, but the fact that you cannot imagine something, does not prove its non-existence.

As Imentioned before, Idid set up furniture and other items to match those dimensions, and Iwas able to fit my five-nine frame into a tolerable position, with my feet still on the simulated pedals.

The fact that I recreated that position, does prove its existence.

David

Ah you are THE David Byrden of Tiger I info a site I have used many times in my Tiger build.

Haynes Tiger book page 90 “Driving Tiger 131” by Darren Hayton, he is Dutch and works as an Astrophysicist he has been a volunteer at the tank museum for 17 years and has closely followed the restoration of the Tiger, he is particularly interested in the engineering design and operation of the Tiger.

First impressions.
“From the moment you get in through the drivers hatch you realise that the Tiger is unlike any other vehicle of it’s era. Firstly, the hatch is offset from the seat making it near possible to drive the tank with your head out of the vehicle”.

The above is a word for word extract from the book, “near impossible” is probably a word I should have used however the book does not go any further to how they came to the conclusion, so armed with your diagram that I will need in the future I conducted an experiment with my car what I did learn was that IF the driver could achieve this then he would have to have both arms out of the hatch to support his weight not shown in your picture then there is the matter of the sponson and the hatch and also steering the tank, I have dismissed having a box on the seat to support his weight as this would have to be placed once he got the tank going and removed when negotiating corners so a third party would have been required to aid the driver, my conclusion was that the only way to know for sure is to conduct an experiment in a real Tiger, the chances of this happening at Bovington are next to nil, a friend and I are planning a trip to Saumur, this was planned if we could have access to the Tiger unless on one of your visits you have done this.

David, if you have contacts at Saumur and are willing to travel to the museum then perhaps we could document this matter, my friend John is fluent in French so the language would not be a problem.

Hi Byrden

Inotice you keep falling back on the philosophical argument as to impossible.

In the literal sense you are correct...but then your argument is more suited (as is the theme)to an existential forum rather than a tank one.

It appears that the use of "impossible"by the TIger people is of course logically incorrect but remains colloquially correct in that it was "impossible"to efficiently drive th etank (if at all)with your head stuck out the top and your spine twisted in illogical positions.

As Isaid, it possible to drive a car with your forehead on the pedals but no one in their right mind would argue with the colloquial use of the term "impossible"in the context of describing the practicality of the action.

Ireally think you are stretching the point by continually falling back on "but you said imposssible" when we know its so impractical as to be the absolute exception rather than the ruke.

p

lposter; you're saying that the new Haynes manual contains a statement that is not strictly true, because it was written in colloquial language.

If we can all agree on that, Ithink the debate is over. Ilook forward to checking the rest of the book.

But, "we know its so impractical as to be the absolute exception rather than the rule" ? There are too many photos of Tiger drivers apparently doing this, to call it so.

David

HI Byrden

There are too many photos of Tiger drivers apparently doing this, to call it so.

We all know these type of arguments. In the same way that "impossible"in teh strictest sense you like to apply is improvable, we also know that you are employing one of the basic fllawed arguments in attempting to prove your point by pretending a supporting point is indeed proven,

yet you have singularly failed to show that any of the heads you like to point out is in fact the driver or that he is indeed driving when the photo was taken.

Of course this could go on all night....where you pretend to/like to believe either 1) you have super in depth knowledge of Tiger tank driving or 2)you have discovered some flaw in "authorative"publications.

When in reality you havent. All you have done is hang your argument on the literal interpretation of the fair use of the term "impossible"as everyone understands it and a buncg of pictures that you claim , but do not demonstrate to be, the drivers of the tanks who may not actually be driving.

Yuo provide a picture as "evidence"but all the picture shows is that the measurements you include show just how impossible it actually is.

You claim you cannot draw as knowing full well that if you could and you attempted to shoehorn any normal height man in there that his head could never attain the vertical orientation that you claim exists in your other pictures of the "driver".

Its all a bit pointless really.

p

Hallo Byden
I have to ask, are you the David Byrden who runs the Tiger I info web site? I’m beginning to think not

Quite arrogantly the only evidence you have offered is a single picture, a diagram and a claim that you have moved some furniture around to represent a Tiger, when I say the only way to find out for real is to test the situation in a real Tiger you dismiss this then say case closed and you are right, sorry I think not this case is still wide open for debate the people of Bovington who have a running Tiger cannot be dismissed on your word and a few pictures which only tell half the story when you can supply some half decent evidence then we will see

All right, you have made good points, so I will withdraw to defend the following positions:

[1] It may or may not be possible to drive a Tiger heads-up.

[2] Experiments with simulated layouts are inconclusive.

[3] Photographic evidence is inconclusive.

I would personally  be convinced by the movie frames where the Tiger is clearly moving along and a total of 5 people are visible, but as you point out, it's possible that they had a passenger standing behind the driver. So I will stick to [3].

Now, regarding the manual: if the book actually said "near impossible" rather than "impossible", then almost the whole thread has been a waste of time.

See, this is why it's important to check before you publish, and write exactly what you mean.

David

All true not to mention the many pictures of Tigers with more than 5 people on the tank and the tank defiantly moving.

“Almost impossible” is still open to interpretation as the guy may have exhausted all he thought would work but still keeps an open mind just in case someone does actually come forward with an idea, I don’t think the thread has been a waste of time after all 3 people have offered various reasons as to feasibility of driving the tank heads up.

Personally I think you will find the book rather dull in places though the page on zimmerit if fascinating along with the only picture I have seen of the HL230 fan drive transfer box , I’m waiting for Totenkopf Tigers and Trojca’s Tiger Vol 2 both available shortly