philipat

So, I'm considering trying to fix the HLBulldog's headlights so that they work correctly instead of having the single light set to the side where there really wasn't a light. One way to do this is to get the parts sprue from a Tamiya Sherman or get Schumo's headlight set.

Question though: are the headlights for the Sherman (M4A3E8 by Tamiya) the same size as the Bulldog's? Looking at their pictures it looks as though they are ...just need to remove the small round object on top of the Tamiya lights.

TIA.

pattoncommander

US Army headlamps were standard size for most all tanks up to the M-46. Later models are basically the same but a different mounting configuration. The M-4A3 headlamp is the same as the Pershing, in that it can be pulled from the mount and stowed inside when under fire. The M-41 lights are fixed in position. The small object on top is the BOD or blackout drive, AKA Cat eyes. Used for directional control by a ground guide when headlamps cannot be used. In the M-41, these are offset to the sides instead of mounting on the headlamps. The Sherman and M-41 headlamps themselves should be the same. On the '41, the inner lamps are IR and should be a very dark wine color. What is your reference to " where there really wasn't a light"?

Panther F

The lenses might be the same, but the headlamp assemblies are completely different between the Sherman and the Bulldog, as well as the mounts.


~ Jeff

afv aficionado

Hi Philipat & Pattoncommander
I think he means the horn - mounted on the inside of the RHS set of lights - (looking at the tank from the front), where HL have mounted their single large LED.
Re the BOD - is that the small light with the rectangular opening to the front? I was thinking they might be indicators?

Interesting idea re the Tamiya Sherman - do they include lenses? That's the hold up with mine - fitted SMD LED's into the headlights.

Mal

philipat

Thanks for the info. Sounds like I could use the Tamiya headlamps after removing the BODs from the top. They have lenses and are setup for putting the light bulb (SMD for my plans) into the headlight fixture.

"where there really wasn't a light" was a reference to the placement of the LED by HL. Neither of the actual headlights on HL's tank are lit. Instead, to inside of the portside headlights, HLinstalled a fixture to hold the LED. That fixture doesn't correlate to anything that I've seen on pictures of actual M41s.

When you say that the M41's BODs were "offset to the sides instead of mounting on the headlamps", are you talking about the inner IR lamps that should be a wine color? Or, the little round things on the outboard edges of the headlamp assemblies?

I'd upload a picture to show the parts I mean but it won't seem to work.

Thanks.

AFV432

afv aficionado

HI AFV
Thanks for the pics, can't load them here myself, for some reason?

Philipat
Just looked at the Tam Sherman manual - looks like part trees Y (17-20) & J (3) would deliver the headlight fittings. Part tree D (1-5)  & J (1-2) would do for the rear lights - they're slightly different each side.

Pattoncommander
On the M41 there is what appears to be a shrouded vent, above the fender opposite the drivers position, inboard of the pioneer tool rack (AFV's first pic above shows the end of it - parallel with the top of the headlight guardl). As far as I've seen it is not reproduced on any model, including the HL M41A3. It's also not mentioned in the tank Manual ( TM 9 -whatever - it's at home).
Can you tell me what it actually is? I asked my father about it, but he doesn't recall it.

Mal

pattoncommander

Right, the small BODs are markers which have a faint white deflected light in them. This is the Ft Jackson museum M-41 and the lights on the left (photo) show the headlamp on the inside and guts removed from the IR. M-41s I have worked with had an IR lamps on the inside, but this is an early model, plus an museum artifact, so some diffs can be expected.


Mal, Earlier models had the slave cable plug located in that area. Side of the hull at the fender in froint of the sponson box. It's been a few years since I've been around 41s.., but I'll have to look at our museum '41 to see if it's hidden behind the pioneer rack. The plug receptacle has a round cap that twists off and folds down showing the female 2 point connection.

afv aficionado

Hi Pattoncommander
Slave cable? Was that for the battery? Would have thought that would have been nearer to the batteries, at the rear? Or was itfor  jump starting other vehicles?

AFV432's 2nd pic is one of our early M41A1's  - no fuel injectors, early turret, the plate around the turret ring/drivers position being a casting, rather than the later welded structure. They're different from what the Manual says, I think they were retrofitted - in the lights - before they were delivered in 1960. They've definitely got the early 'horseshoes' (hull penetrations for the light cables), plus the engine grilles are different - extra strengthening ribbing, plus more of them - 5 to the left & 6 to the right, rather than the later 3 per side.

Mal

WhiteWolf McBride

My Feedback: (3)

Philipat & AFV-Aff:

If you find a supplier of SMD LED's that would send 'em out pre-wired, lemme know, I asked one guy from eBay, and it was cleaper to use the fibre-optics out of a Leo! I ~may~ give soldering 'em up myself a shot, AFTER my new treatment kicks in (and if it works to the general benefit) as right now, my fine control is a bit lacking, and my eyesight is at times flakey as he-ck.

Also, years back someone found notlam LED's of 5mm and 3mm type, but even smaller, under 2mm if I remember right. But for the life of me, I cannot find 'em any more, and ~all~ the eBay ones are 3mm, 5mm or 10mm... and meant for the R/C buggies or aircraft.

Perhaps if er approached the park flier and micro-copter guys, some of them would know where, as smaller is better/lighter for their units, hmmm? I've seen the new electric Airwolf with all the lights and sounds, fabulous for under $200, and if its lighting tech could be used for our tanks, *shrug*

WhiteWolf
- all for micro-LED's over bulbs and fibre-optics

philipat

Thanks for the pics everyone. Looks like the BODs are the little circles at the outboard edge of the assemblies and the clear headlamps are the outboard of the lamp pairs.

Pattoncommander &AFV...must be the horn that I couldn't identify. I see it in pattoncommander's photo...first photo I've seen with that part.

Looking at the photos it looks like the Bulldog and Sherman headlamp assemblies, or mounting, were different. However, looking at the HL tank, I think that I can get by with borrowing some of the Tamiya Sherman headlights by using the sprue tree or getting Schumo's metal version of those.

AFV: the clear lenses are part of a sprue tree. I'm sure that Karen at the Museum has them, or Axel's Modellbau has them.

Whitewolf: link for pre-wired SMDs: http://www.trainaidsa.com/shop-leds.shtml (item 3528). I got the warm white.


Still can't upload photos.

pattoncommander

Mal, Looks as if you have a real odd ball M-41 that has been highly modified. All 4 variations of the M-41 were identified only internally....normally looking at the gunner's controls. Early models and A1s had a black ring for traverse, but later ones went to a
bar similar to a steering control. None had power elevation. The turret was mostly welded plates, with only the base turret ring molded. All M-41s had either the Lycoming or Continental 500 HP fuel injected opposed 6 cylinder and turbo was standard. As for the back deck, that must be a modified design for your area, possibly a different engine in mind??? Yes, the slave cable is for jump starting and the recepticle was in some odd places...in the M-46 and 47, it was in the driver's hatch by the instrument panel. Normally one tank in the platoon would carry a cable. It was a heavy, cumbersome thing and extra care had to be taken handling the connector ends. Many AFVs had the connector plug outside for quick access. Where is the 41 in the photo located? It's set up for searchlight and looks like a bunch of smoke grenade lauchers, plus some extra goodies, not normally seen on 41s.

WhiteWolf McBride

My Feedback: (3)

Philipat:

Don't use the BETA: multi-upload, its garbage in my opinion, and I've never gotten it to work. The " Click here... " one works fine, just be sure your files are not too big, and of acceptable format.

If you still have trouble, there is an image upload FAQ on the main page if I remember right (can look up the link later, short on time now) or barring that, why not use the " link " button above the text input box, and use one of the assorted free online photo-storage areas.

If ya need more help, PM me, and I can walk ya thru it via chat on MSN or summat, hokay?

WhiteWolf
- off for first immunoglobulin transfusion (hematology doc showed me the 'normal' levels - 7 to 24 for IgG I think, mine was 0.5... OY!)

philipat

Okay...got the picture to upload. It's a compilation of the feedback that everyone has provided about what is what in the region of the headlamp assemblies.

Whitewolf: that's the link that I use. The multi-upload only crashes my browser. This time I tried Internet Explorer instead of Firefox. It seems to work with IE but not Firefox. But, that's typical of this forum. The photos don't download (ie, get bigger when you click on them) when I open the forum in Chrome. Nuances...

afv aficionado

Hi Pattoncommander
Our M41A1's weren't so much oddball, as early ones - almost prototypes. They featured the early turrets with the cast nose, and, as detailed above, features that were not continued on the latter vehicles - including early GTL mounting, early Tow Rope brackets.
I've never seen a really good, detailed write up of these features- neither RP Hunnicutt, David Doyle, nor Steven Zaloga, in their various books - I have copies - mention this actuality. The really funny part is that they all have photo's of the early M41's, showing these differences, but there is no mention in the text about them?
One of the books I have states that there were minor external differences, but then goes on to detail the FCS differences - all internal. Obviously not a modeller - after all, our THING is minor external differences (early/late Tigers, anyone?)
It's the great M41 Mystery, which I've been trying to shed some light upon. I had a Topic in the old Havoc Hobby Forum where I detailed the differences with pics, but after the hacking we had, they're still working on recovering the link.
There are at least 3 examples of the early M41's in the US still - one at Fort Knox, another at Missippi - Camp Shelby (Tow rope brackets missing)- http://preservedtanks.com/Types.aspx...ategoryId=1100, and one at the Big Red One Museum at Cantigny, Chicago.

Re the 2nd of AFV432's pics - the head-on shot of the M41A1, MERDC Red Desert paint job, with the wonky T Brake - that's one of our (NZ- Kiwi) 10 M41A1's, based at ATG (Army Training Group) Waiouru (AKA Waiberia, due to it's cold, bleak, similarity to a certain place in the Northern hemisphere).
This pic was taken between 1977 - 1985, when the MERDC scheme, & the M41, was in use.
It's fitted with the Solatron (I think) Simfire laser tank fire simulator. The Unit mounted on the barrel is the laser projector, behind & above it, on the forward turret roof, is the pyrotechnic projector (the box with tubes)- to simulate the gun firing.
Mounted on the hand rails, via lengths of 4 X 2 wooden blocks, around the turret are 4 laser receivers - the glass fronted, green painted rectangular boxes - the front 2 are most visible.
Behind the Pyrotechnic projector - out of sight, but you can see the short aerial - is the 'black box' to which all the parts are linked up via cable.
Behind this, but visible, mounted off the rear MG pintle, is the yellow flashing light, which lights up when the tank is hit & "killed".
The Brits used a similar system on their Chieftains, though there were slight differences between the equipments, going from the photo's I've seen.

Mal

AFV432

heres some more reference pics for you

mal i think you sent me some of these?

afv aficionado

Hi AFV
Yep, pics 2 & 3 are mine - actually pic 2 was by my father - taken in the early 60's, on the Desert Road, between Waiouru & Mount Ruapehu. This was before all the later alterations, and they still had the square end fenders - later cut off. Plus the US 'handshake' sticker - these were quickly removed after General Thornton saw them - "We paid for our tanks" , they weren't a 'gift'. Also the only fwd mounted APU exhaust one I've seen in NZ service.

Pic 3 is NZ30543, at a Hastings City Parade, in March 1982, which I attended -my  father was taking the salute. This shows the Simfire gear installed, also the early tow rope brackets - twin prong at the rear, the late ones were single prong. This is the one that ended up at Puckabunyal - the Aussie Tank Museum, and before whoever it was that got loose with the black spraypaint.

Pic 1 is a shot from the tank hangars at Waiouru, both tanks fitted with Simfire, the nearer - NZ30549 - shows the early pattern GTL mounting - the pivot point overhung the actual mounting. Ithink this was replaced with the later centre mounted pivot version as the overhung version had a weak point below the pivot & could break there - NZ30547 at the Waiouru Army Museum has this problem.

Pic 4 - Drivers position & turret detail - you can just see the side of one of the laser receiver boxes, on the LHS of the photo. The cables lying on the handrails are part of the simfire system. Also the cable reel at the rear LHS of the turret - RHS of the pic - thses are Brit issue, same as on the Cheiftain, when the phone & cable are fitted, these are used to allow an observer to dismount the tank, stay in contact with the crew, for ambushes etc, and preserve radio silence.

Pic 5 - Assassin  - show the casting around the drivers position - compare this with the later welded versions. The post to protect the fire extinguisher T handle was a simple L shape piece of steel, on end. On the cable reel, on the turret, the 'hand' (clock like) in the 6 o'clock position is the crank handle to wind up the telephone cable, pivots from the outer edge of the reel. Also shows the 2 front early Tow rope brackets. Brit Larkspur Aerial bases are fitted to the 2 forward antenna positions on the turret  - we don't seem to have used the rear position.

Pic 6  - Simfire equipped M41A1, from the rear, showing the rear LHS quadrant Laser Receiver, between & slightly above the jerry can & cable reel, plus the black painted rear plate on the stowage box, not sure what this was, haven't seen it marked, but the stowage position of the canvas rolls was changed from hanging off the bottom of the stowage box, to the top lid of the stowage box - 4 loops being welded to the box lid to facilitate this - so must have had some importance?

Pic 7 - M41A1 & Scorpion, beside the hangars at Waiouru, after 1985, when the M41 had been retired & replaced by the Scorpion.Paint job is the late version - there were 3 different batches of paint used for NZ MERDC - from different suppliers, with different colours.

Mal

philipat

Great pics and detail, Mal!

Okay...I think I'll try this.  Does anyone have any spare headlamp parts from their Sherman (or variant) builds that they'd be willing to part with?  Please, PM me with what you'd like for the parts and the postage cost.  I can reimburse you via Paypal.

Looking at the Sherman manuals, they'd be parts Y17-20 (2 each) and J3 (2 each).

Thanks.

pattoncommander

Man, nice photos...wished I had a camera back then, as I only have one photo of my M-41, taken by a buddy when I was rolling into
the motor pool. Now I connect with all the stuff on the turret.. Simfire was not developed when I was with 41s...back in 1955, so it didn't register when I saw all that stuff on the turret. Never used the stuff on any of my tanks. On outside ID, the only visible recognition point was the location of the "little Joe" aux generator muffler...earlier models had it attached to the rear grill, then moved to the muffler. Later A3s moved up to next to the pioneer rack. As I think about it, without looking at the museum tank, I recall the slave cable connection being next to the instrument panel to the right of the driver, like the 47 and 48s, so can't really say what that thing it you described on the front. Never had to use the slave cable on my 41, but very often on 46-47-48s. Nice idea on the commo wire reel. Nice to have infantry communications, but that was generally for mediums with a phone box on the rear to take out bunkers , adjust artillery, etc. USA figured the M-41 as a fast recon vehicle and not designed for direct combat so most light tanks didn't have the external phone, except for some units with specific missions where phones were installed. The M-41 was a great tank and unfortunately, the USA didn't take advantage of its unique design and superb maneuverability as other nations did. Argentina and Brazil highly modified the 41s used them into the early 1990s. NZ seems to have made long use of them also. Only bad thing was that nasty HV 76mm gun. Hated to fire it and lots of guys lost thier eardrums due that extreme backblast of that gun.

afv aficionado

Hi Pattoncommander
As the M41's became our only tanks (The Centurions were retired & mostly sold to Oz for Vietnam repair/replacements mid 60's) - we trained with them as main battle tanks (no live enemy + no armour = no problem), on the assumption that when we deployed, we would get 'proper' tanks - which was our experience in WWII (Desert & Italy) & Korea.
Quite a few RNZAC crew served in Brit Cents in Korea. Same thing happened after our UN contigent returned from Bosnia, we sent members of RNZAC to Brit armoured units, where they proceeded to paint Kiwi's on any & every vehicle they crewed.
Re the APU exhaust - my father reckoned it was better to keep all the flame hazards in one place - the main exhausts & the pony exhausts - especially when using cam nets. Having all the exhausts to the rear, meant you could cam up the bow end safely.

Re that shrouded vent over the RHS fender, if you get the chance, I 'd like to know what it really is for. It's strange that it's missed off most of the models & drawings?
There are 2 other strange things about the M41 that I've come across - some turrets have a splash ring around the loaders hatch, some don't.
The other thing, some books quote total numbers built as 3 + a half thousand odd, but some quote 5,500 - these latter figures being from 'general' books, which tend to be more mistake ridden. It's a pretty big difference though?

Mal

afv aficionado

Hi Guys
The link to our old forum has been restored, so here is the link to some of my M41 pics, which show some of the anomalies mentioned above - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/oldhavoc/i...hp?topic=360.0 - and the listing of Kiwi M41 Characteristics - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/oldhavoc/i...hp?topic=925.0 - many of these are primarily Early M41 characteristics.

Not sure if it's just my computer, but some of the pics are truncated?

Mal

Hobby_Havoc_Australia

Hi Mal, the old havoc forum attachments folder was corrupted in the upload to the new server, its in the process of being uploaded again but its a big file and will take a couple of days to sort out but all the pics will be fixed [8D]

cheers
pete

philipat

Okay...so, I have the Tamiya sprues for the headlight assemblies.  And, I noticed that the light wiring exits the back of the headlamp instead running through the bottom and hidden in the plastic.  Is that realistic?  Or, just a nuance of the Tamiya casting its plastic?

Did the wiring for the Bulldog's headlights exit the back of the headlamp and then run down into the tank?  Or, did it go through the inside of the headlamp assembly and through the upright support (presumably a tube) and into the tank from there?

afv aficionado

Hi Philipat
Going from memory, the early M41's had the headlight wires exit from the rear of the light, then down to & thru the two 'horseshoes' (hull penetrations protected by horseshoe shaped splash rings) - See repl #16 - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/oldhavoc/i...hp?topic=360.0. I'm pretty sure the latter ones fed thru the base of the headlights, so no exposed wiring.
Did you manage to get the clear plastic lenses, too? If so where from, please?

Think I've found out what the shrouded vent was on the fender by the pioneer tool rack. The tank had a gasoline fired personnel heater, mounted inside, alongside the driver. I think the exhaust from this  came out via the shrouded vent.
If anyone can confirm this, I'd be most appreciative.

Mal

philipat

Mal,

I got them, including the clear lenses, from Karen at AAF Museum (http://www.aaftankmuseum.com/).  Shipping was quick and comms were excellent.  I think Axel's Modellbau also has the spare trues for the various Tamiya tanks.  There is an Aussie dealer that has Taigen tanks; I thought he carried spare Tamiya trues, too.  But, I don't recall the website or store's name.

Darn photos in the link are truncated.  Holdover from the transition from the old to the new forum.  [:@]

Thanks for the info.  I'm making mine a fictitious USMC tank.  So, I have some flexibility in "version control".  Marines, particularly at that time, got the leftovers and hand-me-downs from the Army.  So, I could make it any version - early, late or a mixture.  Nice to have some leeway.  OOH-RAH!

Thanks for the info.

Philip<br type="_moz"/>