HAL_HUSKER

Today I have visited the respected very much Tamiya HobbyShop (the official dealer one) in Moscow.

I saw T-34, SU-100, Chieftain and Centurion... in 25th scale.

So what is the problem to make themin 16th scale? Besides there are RCmodels in 35th scale with TBU ...

When I've got the Official catalogue of Tamiya Products in 2012 I have noticed that 25th scale tanks are taken from it. Why?

I know that Tamiya reads this International Forum... and this question probably was asked many times and raised up many times - probably something could change if we again and again talk and draw Tamiya's attention as well well as its dealers attention.

herrmill

Am pretty sure it has something to do with what we're taught in Business 101: Break-even Economics & Cost Volume Profit Analysis.

Tanque

herrmill said it already but I'll add my 2 cents. You hit the nail on the head when you said Tamiya probably reads this site; they read the talk. The talk is many whines and bleats that Tamiya is expensive, not worth it and many gravitate to cheap(er) Heng Longs. If I were Tamiya I wouldn't want to sell to this market either.

I have no doubt that producers like Tamiya communicate frequently with their peers to gauge markets as well. If any member really believes that forums really steer product decisions in any definitive way then I've got a patent to turn cow dung into gold nuggets I'd like to sell you. Unlike the RC radio systems forum that has reps from Futaba and others hanging out have you ever seen a rep from Tamiya drop by here?

A few hundred forum followers, among whom there is an occasionally very vocal cadre who complain often about high prices and are always looking for the least expensive everything don't make a market.

The simple truth is NO company is going to stop selling products that sell well; NO company is going to continue producing products that don't sell well.

We in RC armor are so spoiled at this point in time; there are many more options in such a specialized facet of RC than I could ever have imagined years ago.

Hal_Husker you've been a builder for years and I respect what you do so don't take the whining and bleating remarks personally; you aren't those people.

It's just that Tamiya et al exist to a certain degree to give us what we want but at the end of the day they exist to make a profit.
No profit no business and they move on to things that give them profit. Market saturation in a niche hobby like this must also be a
contributing factor; how many of us by several Tamiya tank models per year because we wore out the last ones?

Jerry

modeltank

I greatly doubt that any Tamiya personal is monitoring this forum.

There was a email address for Customers to write in at their international website, but it is gone now (just checked).

If you really wanted to make your point about Tamiya, put it all the way to Japan
[email protected]

Just do not have too much hope. Most of the replies that they replied to me were pretty negative.
1/16 tanks is not even a "snack" to them

Just for the sake of chit chat:
at the second page of Tamiya catalog, there is a introductory section "The Art of Modeling"
At the final paragraph, it reads:
Tamiya also places great importance on customer feedback in the development of new items.........etc...etc....etc...

danlrc

This forum provides geat QUALITATIVE feedback for manufacturers, but the QUANTITATIVE feedback is the sales volume and profit margin.
In my opinion, there is muchbetter technology for the electronics and internal mechanicals available than what either Tamiyaor HL supply today (eg brushless motors, better gear systems, highly programmable functions, etc). But there probably isn't nearly enough market demand toprovide Tamiya enoughreturn on investmentfor designand introduction of anewer RC platform.
Also, the "copy-catting" and downward price pressure on Tamiya from HL makes it likely that Tamiya will only "milk" the current product line - sell as much of the "best sellers" that they have, and over time eliminatethe "slow sellers".
So maybe scratch building (like for RC sailing ships) and electro-mechanical upgrading (like many of you are already doing - indicating that current products don't actually meet your needs) will become an evenbigger part of the RCtank hobby.
Want to see Tamiya get really proactive in RC tanks again - introducing new models and new technology? Just stop buying HL, force them out of competition, and payTamiya a price that supports new product and technology development. Not likely....

The Mad Modder

Making 1/16 versions would require new tooling to make the molds and various parts. It they don't think they can sell enough of a model to cover costs, they probably won't do it. The 1/35 ones were already in production as static models; they just added electronics. Note that the 1/35 ones don't have any suspension and use the same vinyl rubber band tracks the come standard with many of the static models
1/25 rc or static models? In the military plastic model world, 1/35 and 1/48 models are the most popular. I suppose that they didn't sell enough of those 1/25 ones to figure it was worth while.

Pah co chu puk

herrmill got it right. If you can't sell enough units to get out of the red triangle then there is no point even starting production of a new tank.

BIGMIG did a thread a while ago asking what tanks you have. Not everyone responded, me included, so it is not a complete survey but I only counted 77 Taniya tanks among all of us. That won't even pay for one mold.

These tanks take about 25 molds @ $30,000.00 each to produce. I bet Tamiya only makes about $10 to $20 per tank they sell. Our vioce is tiny.

Surviving the red triangle is the key.

Another case in point:

Last year I made those Brass Axles for the HL Panther. For $300.00 I got 100 parts. This price included the setup time on the machine to do the first run. Later runs would not have the setup cost so the parts would be cheeper per unit.

At $3 per unit, I should wholesale them for $6, and the retailer should charge YOU $12. Hardly a deal for YOU.

If I made 10,000 units the price would be less than $.20 per unit. Then they would end up costing YOU about a dollar. Thats a good deal for the product.

But then I have to store a big pile of brass and put out a big pile of money to give YOU that good deal. I could not afford to do that and in the end I could not give away for FREE all the first 100 parts I had made. My whole $300 investment was a loss, but I proved to myself that there is no profit in this hobby.

There is just not enough of us... yet.

pattoncommander

Hal, Tamiya has always been tops on 1;35 models and together with a few DML and Dragon tanks, Tammy has always been my choice for museum displays. It's been pointed out that financing the molds and sales volume have a lot to do with what is available..
To me as a retiree, cost is the primary drawback second to the meager choice of models offered and for the work I do, I need a variety of models..

They obviously monitor this site. When Tamiya put out that Sherman 105 makeover sham M-51 so called "Super Sherman", I wrote them on that now deleted contact address from which I received a reply from Tamiya, substantiating the mistakes I pointed out and appologising for the inaccuracies. In spite of these being pointed out to Tamiya management and production of such an inaccurate model protested by model designers, Tamiya top bosses overruled everyone and with only a goal of sales and $$$ in mind, it was produced. Since I posted both my letter and the response on RCU, Tamiya has blocked me from any contact. Figuring the contact address has been totally deleted, it appears that others have been writing things they don't want to read. Tamiya is interested only in the money and from what I read, I am not the only one who has recieved discourteous or negative responses from inquiries regarding products. Tamiya customer relations are like Canon cameras.,..non existant or not very consumer oriented.

The 1;25 models seem to be an on-off scale. I bought the 1;25 Tiger a few years ago when I was informed that it had been discontinued but I have seen it off and on but now the entire 1;25 line seems to be gone. It is an excellent model with a very good interrior and it has brought be a couple 1st and 2nd place wins at Hobby Shows. Shame it's no longer available, but 1;25 is not the most popular scale and accessories are about non existant. HL has been constantly upgrading but many RC modellers are installing Tammy or other electronics, so Tammy is still selling and from postings, the newer tanks seem to be doing OK.

Hal, you mentioned seeing Centurion in 1;25....with all the chatter about wanting this tank, I wonder why they didn't make it in 1;16.
For newer tanks I look for all models now available to "upgraded" to offer a different tank. Possibly the M-45 may appear from the Korean War Pershing, or an IDF M-50 from the Sherman, both of which would require a minimal amount of tooling.

With all the cost jumps in petroleum, it's a wonder any plastic tanks are being made at all and forsee a price hike in all models very soon.

Panther F

I get a kick out of all this Tamiya talk and what they should or shouldn't do. At least they don’t announce tanks months and years ahead and not deliver, like HOOBEN or the constant rumours about what HL was supposed to be working on. OR, what ever happened to all the hype about MATO and what was supposed to follow the M4A1? Or was that just one guy talking out his …

Stop and look what Tamiya HAS put out in the past few years. The revamped Sherman kit (that obviously doesn't please everyone), the Panzer IV, both the KV-1 and KV-2. Then don’t forget the Panther and Jagdpanther. Even a better Tiger I kit with updated parts!

Also, they did re-release in 1/25th the Centurion, the SU-100, the Tiger I, the Jagdpanther and even a RC Chieftain. I have probably missed one or two since I really don’t follow everything like some of you do.

The bottom line is that I think there’s less to complain and be disappointed in what Tamiya is doing than you think. Heck, I wish BANDAI was still with us, I’d love to see their 1/15th line-up re-released or even offered in a true RC version. I want a Hummel so bad, but at those prices I see for a static kit I’ll pass.

I do want Tamiya to re-release their RC Kubel kit. Why with the WSN M16 and the Kubel it could offer enough interest in more support vehicles.

I know there’s a lot that hasn't been done in 1/16th, but I think today’s tankers are a lot luckier that say 7, 8 years ago.

Just my opinion.










~ Jeff

Rex Ross

I can really appreciate both sides of this discussion.......corporate and consumer..........

Having said that, I have discovered the cure for all of the frustrations listed in the previous postings.............

Scratchbuilding!

Granted, scratchbuilding has a few (many?) frustrations of its' own, but I can usually do something about those. I do what I like and like what I do.

I'm not sure I could take the shock and surprise of an affordable WWII British tank made by anybody..............but I can dream.

Baron Fel

Here, here! Well put!

Baron

DirtyBird69

I know it's been mentioned in the past, but the idea of upper hull  "variant kits" might be a reasonable alternative for Tamiya or Heng Long, as then they only have to produce 1/2 a tank and would allow us tankers some less expensive options while widening the selection of tanks available. Or just sell lower chassis and upper chassis kits seperately  then you could put your own kit together...just ideas 

karel47

yes i sended a mail to the customers service of tamiya with these points profit of what they had already, make more turrets and upperbody of good selling tanks, how much tiger's tamiya had sold over the years, i think more then enough todo profits isn't it. Everyone i know own a tamiya tiger mostly, i have three of them the same story with the king tiger, they stopped the porsche why, it was good selling, no HL new koti can't still beat this kit,almost 30y old its accurate on evreything i have two of them ... another story is the Henshell KT , everyone who own tamiya have them, most of the two or more because the ardennes FO , i have 5 of them ... this version rocks with his mf module ... thats what i advise to them

i gave them samples
1 sherman low cost an easy eight turret or a M36 turret .... or upperbody for M10 and achilles also lower cost
2. tiger : upgrade kits for the mids and late for FO tamiya or a upperbody tamiya FOsturmtiger
3. KTHenshell : conversion kits for lates and conversions like jagdtiger ... if tamiya brings this one would be a hit to only a longer chassis is needed and the upperstructure, many parts are equal to the koti's
4 Pzkfz iv : more conversion turrets, upgrades in FOquality for brumbear, panzer lang, wirbelwind turrets and so on

many upgrades would be half the produce cost of a new one, if you see schumo models can bring out a very detailed sherman turret it would be selling much better with the tamiya brands what will say everything goes together smoothly like the tamiya kits
Half the kits of the asiatam uopgrades are very workconsuming even on tamiya models they aren't fit very well , if it was tamiya it would be scalecorrect and fitting

thats a part of what i write to them

STO_118

HLhas consistantly added to its range of all vehicles not just tanks

Mato are working on a great deal many projects at the moment. Iknow of, and have been helping on at least four different projects but they are a small company and things change, factory problems, material problems.

Hooben are a small company, to expect them to come out with tanks like magic is a little ignorant. Hooben is a small offshoot of ARK who have been producing some new, and quite nice model ships and submarines. The Navel side will always be ARK/Hoobens main focus.

Regarding Tamiya what Hermill and Tanque said pretty much nails it. It is not so much to do with price point, people will buy things regardless of the price but a high price does rule out a fairly large segment of potential customers. Tamiya is in it for the money, they are a business, the purpose of which is to make money. It is most likely their recently Sherman had already had the lions share of manufacturing work completed including the moulds. For them to correct any mistakes would have been costly.

Tamiya create a great deal many products of which the 1/16 and even smaller scales have not been a priority for a long time. It is only recently they have started releasing new models, first in the die-cast hull 1/48 range as well, I suspect, releasing a large number of 1/48 scale models that may have been Bandai's at some point. Tamiya has been surpassed a long time ago in terms of scale detail and quality of moulding by companies such as DML and Trumpeter who have invested heavily in slide technology. Although Tamiyas new Yamato is very nice the price is nearly £250 (sub 400 US). Although I do love Tamiya's (and therefore Academy's) kits because they go together so easiliy.

I wouldn't offer Tamiya advice on what to release, they have been doing it for over 40 years so Iwould imagine they know what they are doing. Although they have had a Kodak moment, they didn't see the Chinese coming and they didn't respond in the 1/16 market or the smaller scales. I doubt you will see a great deal of investment in new tanks and I very much doubt they will release part kits or upgrades it would be a waste of money for them for a start. There recent releases should prove that to you.

Too late I am afraid, prices are already up by all tank manufacturers. The cost of the plastic, the cost of the labour and the improvements in quality of life in China all have a part to play but one of the main reasons, at least for the smaller companies, is their profit margin was too small to start with.

Basically from a retail point of view in the UK I expect a profit margin of around 20-21% (roughly UK retail average), taking into account selling costs, storage and running a small (very small) business from home I am lucky to see 10%. Taking into account what the intial investment is (in terms of money spent to buy the item) and then any problems with the tank breaking or with shipping damage or even dud tanks and it is not really worth stocking them.

Now that is Heng Long. If you go to Tamiya it becomes even worse. The profit margin in the UKis around 10%, now if Iwas to sell that on eBay I would make a loss.If Isell from my website the profit margin drops to around 6%. Large initial investment, small profit equals bad business stocking Tamiyas 1.16 RC tanks. Interestingly enough the only products worth stocking are the Leopard and Gepard Statics.

Panther F

The only one being "ignorant" is HOOBEN by announcing what's next, years before they are even ready and can not even can satisfy the current offerings. 'Nuff said about the ignorant comment too. [:'(]

And if you think only Tamiya is in it for the money because they are a business ...










~ Jeff

YHR

Mato follow along on a regular basis, and that is why they have produced a Sherman, got into metal parts, and the workng metal VVSS suspension. I also know they have a lot in development right now Not sure how much will see the light of day, but there are lots of irons in the fire..

Tamiya is Tamiya and this 1/16 scale market is so small to their bottom line it is amazing they even bother. Rumor has it 1/16 RC tanks are a Mr Tamiya hobby. Much Like Murphy Ma, these guys like tanks so they spend some money developing them. We are fortunate that the principals of these companies share our passion.


I do believe a Cromwell would be a commercial success though if either is listening

Panther F

Wouldn't a Cromwell be great. Then I would have to build a Grizzly for sure like in the movie "Band Of Brothers".










~ Jeff

modeltank

since most of everyone has high hope (or hoping) Tamiya may be able to "do this tank" , "make that tank"......

here's a chance for your dreams to realize
Mr. Hironori Hane
[email protected]
Assistance General Manager, Tamiya Inc (Shizuoka, Japan)
International Division
Office Phone: +81-(054) 285 5187

Tanque

Oh great; that's what we need, a bunch or "Ive got a great idea for you" posters sending email to this person
whining and *****ing about what the next hot 1/16 tank should be.

That will help the hobby. Oh yes.

Where were all you guys when Imai was trying to sell their Elefant, oh wait that was 40 years ago. Most of you were in diapers or not even whelped
yet... You can see how well that model sold back then by counting the originals you seem personally; had there been greater demand there
would be more of them. Just like the Koharu 1/16 scale half-track of the same period.

I believe some folks just like to talk about it but faced with the opportunity to actually buy something they scatter like bugs or trot out the tired old " its
too expensive " excuse.

And Patton Commander: " The 1;25 models seem to be an on-off scale." Really? Tamiya made 1/25 scale long before they got into 1/16. 1/25 is a great scale;
big enough to make an impact and detail yet small enough to to be easily handled. And by comparison economic. It's a pity more people don't appreciate 1/25 scale.

Jerry

herrmill

Threads like this always make for an entertaining read.

Thanks, Erwin, for posting that contact info. Now I know just who to forward all those Mark IV, Whippet & A7V files to!

manchu9inf

I love 1/25 scale, even though i have only built the Tammy 1/25 T-34, i have 2x Tigers, 2x JPs and 1x SU-100, I will buy more when i can and build them when i can. I long to get the 1/25 Tamiya Panther A, only seen 1 on ebay, but will continue to look for it!

Panther F

Yeah, I like 1/25th too. I think all I need is the Tiger I and the Jagdpanther to complete the collection, even though I do have the Academy version of the Jagdpanther. Wouldn't mind some Bandai tanks too in 1/24th.

The remote controlled SU-100 started it all for me, love that tank and remote controlled was as close to radio control I was ever going to get at age 12.

That's why I made the comment wishing I had started out in RC about now. I would definitely be in that scale with all those RC'd from the static kits plus all the new stuff coming out in 1/24th that 1/16th isn't even doing.










~ Jeff

karel47

yes that's treu tanque

he guy's you complain their is nothing new look at http://mk-modelle.de/index.php?cat=KAT09&product=P0014

they launched a bunch of german 251 halftracks , i've ordered me two so what you are waiting for give them support that will be announced by the other brands to and open their eyes their is realy a marked for new items


i even propose to tamiya to do an opel blitz FO or a GMCtruck Full Option it would sell worldwide because no one have them yet

STO_118

What tank are you referring to? The T-55 or the Elefant both tanks saw release (eventually). The E-100 and Maus have been prototyped but is very unlikely to see the light of day. By satisfy the current offerings I presume you mean the lack of sales of their current models. Yes bad Hooben, hey really shouldn't have bothered.

 It is  normal in any industry for a product to be delayed. It is also normal for any industry to announce a product before it is ready to gauge interest.  I've been waiting on certain computer games for over 5 years, two games from my childhood took around 8-10 years to get on the market. These companies had budgets in the tens of millions and yet you are surprised a very small company couldn't get a product out to a niche market?

No you mis-quoted what I said, they may not "only" be in it for the money but that will be a driving force. They have employees to pay and overheads to pay for. They have a massive scale (no pun) of products that all required different manufacturing techniques and therefore most likely multiple factories. That all costs money. At the end of the day they need to make money and won't be releasing products on the whim of a tiny proportion of the people out there.

The simple fact is, in this hobby as well as others, people don't want to spend the money. You all talk about wanting new tanks and some of you might actually buy them but the majority of you probably wouldn't. Yet you blame companies for not placing themselves in debt and putting the thousands of dollars up front based on what you personally think.

The problem with this hobby is it is a niche hobby. What is the even bigger problem is the hobby has niches inside the niche.

The companies out there are working hard to produce tanks and accessories and there are people, some on this forum, working hard to make them as good as they possibly can be. As hard we work the product will never 100% satisfy and the type or product these are will never be 100% be accurate to the real thing. The profit margins are not the best but we can still enjoy the hobby for what it is, a little fun to keep our hands occupied.

Panther F

The tracks on those are too wide and not accurate looking. Kinda look like 1/24 Panther tracks.

JMHO










~ Jeff