Jeff489

My Feedback: (12)

Does an Elefant need Zim to be a real Elefant? Starting an Elefant, but I hate the Zim look. Did all Elefants have Zim?

MAUS45

Some did and some did not. So it's your call, to zimm or not to zimm?

Panther F

Don't have too much Elefant printed material, so I really like to use Google for wartime photos. In the sunlight you can make your own conclusions. I was going to (the cost is nominal) but I too don't care too much for the zimm look.

I think the only one that will have zimm is my Early Panther I have planned.










~ Jeff

TheBennyB

As far as I know most had zim.  Don't recall many photo's of tanks without zim after they were overhauled by Nibelungenwerke.

Elefant

What is an Elefant ?
The answer is quite simple : it is a Ferdinand with big ears and a long trunk...arrhmmm...I meant, a Ferdinand with new things such as additionnal armor, new cupola, a MG and Zimm (talking about the main improvements). So, for me, all the Elefant, out of the factory, had Zimm applied.

rampa203

"Zimmerit" - I learned a new word - thanks guys.

Russ

Panther G

Weren't the Ferdinand s more commonly covered in Zim? I thought the Elephant refit was after the stoppage of the use of Zim.

MAUS45

Here are some photos of Elefants with no Zimmerit...

manchu9inf

after Kursk, Most went back to get rebuilt, with the addition of cupola , hull MG, and zimmerit, etc. and were renamed Elefants, before the overhaul referred to as Ferdinands. So all overhauled Ferdi's that became Elefants had zimm.

rivetcounter

First was the Ferdinand without zimmerit then this went through a refit and was renamed the Elefant this had in all cases zimmerit

TheBennyB

Pretty sure the tanks in the 3 pics are all ferdinand's, no cupola and stowage still on hull side as well as early divisonal markings.

manchu9inf

yup, those are all Ferdi's sometime around Kursk.

Jeff489

My Feedback: (12)

Ok, looks like it will be getting zimmerit.

Panther F

Heck, I still can't decide on which one to build. []










~ Jeff

karel47

yes can be depending on the battlefield were they were seen in ... as mark say almost every elefant was covered with zimmerit, even the later ones wich were active in the ardennes area in dec '44

but if you don't like it its modelling who sais ... it has to be ...you can build what you want ... it won't be less stuning to see when properly wheathered

Elefant

Before choosing one Elefant, decide what theater : East, Italy or Berlin, the last battle ? If you really chose to build an Elefant, forget the spider web camo, they were all sand based with green and brown airbrushed spots or only green spots and of course Zimm.

Elefant

I do not think the Elefant were ever deployed in the Ardennes. In summer 1944, they were mainly on the italian front, after, the survivors were sent on the eastern front. Only 3 were supposely seen flighting in Berlin (I cannot confirm this info).

MAUS45

Here is a quote from Achtung Panzer about the Ferdinand and Elephant. Seems not all were upgraded with zimmerit, just most. So there is still the possibility of having a Elephant without zimmerit.

Ferdinand and Soviet infantry, Kursk, July 1943.

In October of 1943, 50 survivors were sent back to the factory for badly needed repairs and pre-planned modernization. Modernization consisted of the installation of a MG34 in the hull, improvement of armor protection, installation of wider tracks and installation of commander’s cupola (developed from that of Stug III Ausf G), which provided improved visibility. Most of the Elephants were partially covered with Zimmerite, an anti-magnetic paste. Modernization was made in February and March of 1944 by Nibelungenwerke in Austria and modified Ferdinands were renamed Elephants. Officially Ferdinands were renamed Elephants in general order dated May 1st of 1944.

After modernization, 48 Elephants were grouped into schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 and part of it was transferred to Italy in late February of 1944. They arrived in Rome by train via Salzburg, Innsbruck, the Brenner Pass , Trento and Florence on February 24th of 1944. They saw combat at Nettuno, Anzio and Cisterna as early as March 1st of 1944. sPzJagAbt 654 was moved to France in late 1943 and rearmed with Jagdpanthers. In April of 1944, part of sPzJagAbt 653 was transferred back to the Eastern Front. In Autumn of 1944, all existing Elephants were grouped into newly created unit - schwere Heeres Panzerjager Kompanie 614, sPzJagAbt 653 was re-equipped with Jagdtigers. sPzJagAbt 614 with some 13-14 vehicles saw service on the Eastern Front as late as early 1945 and eventually all remaining (4?) Elephants saw final service with Kampfgruppe "Ritter" in area of Zossen (south of Berlin) in mid April of 1945. When employed defensively in Italy and Russia, Elephants proved to be formidable opponents. As of January 1st of 1945, there were still 4 Elephants in service of which some took part in the defence of Berlin as part of Kampfgruppe Ritter.

Panther F

Any pictures (or images) from Anzio? I'll start from there.

I need to go to Barnes and Nobles this weekend. At least the store near me has a lot of excellent books.










~ Jeff

TheBennyB

I can't be positive but achtung panzer may be saying "most" because 2 retired Ferdinand's were converted into Bergetiger(P) which didin't
receive Zim?

Elefant

The best source for Ferdinand/Elefant is 2 books by K.Münch, Combat History of the 653th Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung and Combat History of the 654th Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung. The first is very hard to find and the last one can be found on the internet.
I do not remember having seen an Elefant without Zimm in these books, I'll check...

rivetcounter

No Elefant was used without Zimmerit I have both books described above both have over 600 pictures and to date they are the only source of information on the Ferdinand/Elefant
Of the company sent to Italy only 3-4 returned to Russia to fight with the others

Panther F

Thanks. I'm not afraid of zimm now. Now that it is available in preformed sheets. And it's not really the work, nor the time it's the end results that I will cringe over. And since the evidence is now apparently overwhelming I guess it's zimm all the way!

Now, just what variant to go with?

Panther F

So only Ferdinands fought at Kursk?










~ Jeff

Elefant

Yup.
They were modified (to become Elefant) after this battle during which they showed many weakness such in close defense protection (against magnetic mines or infantry).