I am starting to paint my KT and decided to use the Red Oxide Primer as a foundation to work from. As I started to investigate the issue of red oxide primer as the color of KT's and other German vehicles toward the end of the war, I had no idea of the depth of this controversy.
In short, right or wrong, it's my tank and I've decided to use the color as one of the base colors.
However, in reading many post on different forums, I found a very interesting photograph of a Panther (series ?) that was taken in the early 1960's before the restoration of the unit. It looks fairly clear that part of the coloring was the red oxide primer.
Please politely comment on your thoughts to this controversy. It could be more interesting then whether Tamiya tanks are relevant....
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Tjs

From my research it seems that a darker brown and dark green was used over the tan over the primer prier to roughly Sept 1944. This is also when zimmeritt stopped being applied. After Sept 1944, with depleted resources and the simplification of production the tan and green was sprayed over just the primer.

From my research also it seems the many units left the plants in primer red oxide starting in late '44 and continuing to the end. This was not, however, an absolute. Some units were still delivered in three color cammo right up to the end. Depended on the plant and supplies on hand at the moment.

Hmmm...

Just looking at the pic, and noting that you said " before restoration " when referencing this tank, is it possible that in that particular case, the red in the photo is more likely rust, and not primer? A lot of the tanks were (and still are) outside in the elements, and were rusting.

Just an observation...

WhiteWolf

I never saw that one before, that photo is awesome.

Without going into the whole primer/factory vs field applied topcoat/surface rust, etc. discussion, I'm torn on what I see in this case.

At first glance, it looks like it's plain old Panzer grey (which is almost black, not the light blueish tint of the Tamiya box art or HL color)but where are the turret numbers or balkenkruz? Then the barrel looks almost bare metal in spots, like the whole shebang was sandblasted and some stubborn primer remained. But if it was bare metal, it would have some hint of orangey surface rust unless it was oiled or otherwise protected (Maybe they clear coated it with a 55 gallon drum of Future ). Then the stencils on the front seem to appear mostly on the dark color, so maybe the red is rust, but then it could just be worn off due to foot traffic since there seems to be no shortage of climbing kids. I guess it's up to interpetation.

The 251 in the forground looks almost whitewashed, but that could be flash.

Anyway, it's great photo. Imagine what it was like to climb over all the 'trophies' after the war.

Here's another photo from a different thread that has interesting information and dialogue. This is the interior of a Stug prior to restoration in the 1980's. Different shades.
Here's the link:
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...87&ord=&page=3

Please see these photos from Fort Knox's Panther II and other German armor prior to restorations. It provides a good look at what "Red Oxide Primer" really looked like.

more:

I've known Bill for a while now, he's up on his research as much as anyone I've met.

Bottom line is, with the amount of equipment and machines being built in different areas during a war, there's going to be a wide range of suppliers and methods, despite RAL charts, etc. especially with primer. I bet they vary by batch number, even more so as raw supplies become scarce.

Field applied top coats and camo were even more varied once you account for how they thinned the concetrated paint (water, fuel, oil). Then you have the crew applied stuff: mud camo, whitewash, etc. I have photos of a few tanks covered with chalk scribble.

You could drive yourself nuts trying to be 'accurate' and still be way off. Best bet is to either use a specific photo and copy it completely or whip out that artistic license and have fun.

If I ever get the Tammy KV-2, I'm finishing it as it was one of the non-painted, factories workers jumping in and driving it out the front door into battle versions. In my mind it'd be a rust covered mess without tools, possibly no fenders, just a slogan slapped on the side.

Is that Elizabeth taking a break from being Queen and touring a museum after the war? Actually, I was kinda startled when I saw that photo [X(] ..... that lady looks like my sister carrying my mother's purse. I don't have a clue about the primer........
Rex

I'm voting for "having fun" rather then accuracy. While I really appreciate the research and depth of emotions that can play into these types of conversation (some of the other forums are way over the top...) - this is about having fun.
At least for me as I don't make any money from this - but spend much!
tjs
PS: As I was looking for photos to determine if I should use the Red Primer that I've been using as a base coat (yes), I found this interesting photo.
Since the Sherman tanks are always having a challenging time at DAK (I know what that comment will do!), perhaps I should copy this tank to give the Allies a hand??

Does anyone else think that White Star is awfully white? Maybe it's a PHOTOSHOP?

It's a banner of some sort, not painted on the turret.

Ah, I see it now. Thanks tjs

If that Panther G is from Bovington, then it could have been in just red oxide as the British Army had six Panther G's completed that were on the production line at M.A.N. for evaluation along with a few Jagdpanters as well. The Panther G in that photo if it is the Bovington Panther G has had at least three paint makeovers since that photo was taken. I have attached examples including the latest which looks close to your '60's photo. The one with the dark yellow strips over red oxide is supposedly what the original colors were from the factory where they were completed for the British Army?

Now the question is was this a Panther G from Aberdeen? Aberdeen Proving Grounds had several Panther G's as well. Many of them were scrapped during a scrap drive for the Koren War, amazing waste of history, but they were built as evaluation machines as well?

Or, maybe the Fort Knox/Patton Museum Panther G?

I just painted my King Tiger and the research I did boils down to what time frame are we talking? there were a few variations of primer and then a variant with no primer at all. There were field painted KT's and factory painted KT's.<div>I think you have some artistic license on the red oxide.</div>

Tsull, the first picture of a Panther you posted has to be completely ignored this is not a G model it is in fact the Panther II mated with a G turret, the tank was captured without a turret fitted this was added at a later date and completely painted some years latter this picture was taken, Panther II was only ever a prototype.
As for shades of red oxide even today we can get different shades from the same factory depending on batch and date supplied during the war this was exaggerated to a much higher level so we see shades from almost red to almost brown and everything in between, the rear of the Stug you have to be careful with as some German units used red outlines on the Balkan cross and divisional markings this wouldn’t be red oxide primer

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the information. I went with a darker red oxide, almost a brown.
tjs