M51 Sherman Prototype
04-03-2013, 03:04 PM
#1
M51 Sherman Prototype
I discovered that Tamiya was not so wrong finally, the prototype M51 turret was mounted on a A1 chassis with radial engine. I don’t know if the tank was operative, but the first pictures of the assembly line shows all cast A1 chassis with radial engine.
I had a lot of leftover parts from all my shermans I have been building since years and I decide to build this version, just bought the chassis, turret and barrel and all the other parts were from my spare box!
Still a lot for adding as well as all the electronics. I forgot to say that the gearboxes are cheap ( very) used HL modified to fit the Tamiya sprocket.
I had a lot of leftover parts from all my shermans I have been building since years and I decide to build this version, just bought the chassis, turret and barrel and all the other parts were from my spare box!
Still a lot for adding as well as all the electronics. I forgot to say that the gearboxes are cheap ( very) used HL modified to fit the Tamiya sprocket.
04-04-2013, 08:01 AM
#2
Senior Member
RE: M51 Sherman Prototype
Mario,
According to Gannon, he Cummins Diesels started arriving in early 1960 and went to uprading M-50s. Many 51s ran with radials and were upgraded as diesels were available and both operated side by side until 1965 when most 51s had the Cummins installed. Early 51s were built on A1 HVVS chassis and T-23 turrets using the 105s designed for the French AMX 30 and shortened to adapt to the T-23 turret and delivered for issue in July 1962. IDF history is confusing and no specific date is avalable when the M-51s got the Cummins diesels but by 65, most not all, were upgraded. Some M-51s were built from highly modified M-4A3 HVVS 76mm Shermans received in 1956 but most were from A1s. A few were made form 105 HVSS models but major mods to the turret had to be made to include an extension for the mantlet.
Tamiya's major flaws were in the ad hoc spare track stowage both on sponson and turret which is totally incorrect and the fact they they totally ignored the huge gun travel lock that dominates the rear deck and no cover was avalable for the horn guard. Sponson stowage was not uniform and different shops made them different, but Tamiya's M-51 did not resemble any M-51 from early or late production model and adding the Super Sherman monicer for sales appeal was dumb. .
Good luck on the prototype.
According to Gannon, he Cummins Diesels started arriving in early 1960 and went to uprading M-50s. Many 51s ran with radials and were upgraded as diesels were available and both operated side by side until 1965 when most 51s had the Cummins installed. Early 51s were built on A1 HVVS chassis and T-23 turrets using the 105s designed for the French AMX 30 and shortened to adapt to the T-23 turret and delivered for issue in July 1962. IDF history is confusing and no specific date is avalable when the M-51s got the Cummins diesels but by 65, most not all, were upgraded. Some M-51s were built from highly modified M-4A3 HVVS 76mm Shermans received in 1956 but most were from A1s. A few were made form 105 HVSS models but major mods to the turret had to be made to include an extension for the mantlet.
Tamiya's major flaws were in the ad hoc spare track stowage both on sponson and turret which is totally incorrect and the fact they they totally ignored the huge gun travel lock that dominates the rear deck and no cover was avalable for the horn guard. Sponson stowage was not uniform and different shops made them different, but Tamiya's M-51 did not resemble any M-51 from early or late production model and adding the Super Sherman monicer for sales appeal was dumb. .
Good luck on the prototype.
04-04-2013, 08:42 AM
#3
RE: M51 Sherman Prototype
Hi Bill
Yes I totally agree with you. What happens is that when the Tamiya's appeared I believed that non of the M51 used radials. I was so focused in the more known ones so I forgot to reserach the matter. Now with all the leftover parts I was back to the books and realized that they had all radials in the beginning as you say.
I call this prototype just because I'm building it with leftover parts, I really don't know if they had a prototype but I guess could it be probably, who knows with IDF.
It's a low cost models ( I spent US$100) and the parts had not much value selling them separately so did I said why not?
Thanks for all the information, appreciated!
Yes I totally agree with you. What happens is that when the Tamiya's appeared I believed that non of the M51 used radials. I was so focused in the more known ones so I forgot to reserach the matter. Now with all the leftover parts I was back to the books and realized that they had all radials in the beginning as you say.
I call this prototype just because I'm building it with leftover parts, I really don't know if they had a prototype but I guess could it be probably, who knows with IDF.
It's a low cost models ( I spent US$100) and the parts had not much value selling them separately so did I said why not?
Thanks for all the information, appreciated!
04-04-2013, 10:38 AM
#4
Senior Member
RE: M51 Sherman Prototype
Mario, From what I read from a couple sources, the prototype was on a Sherman bought from France and some work actually done there before shipping to Israel. Trying to trace IDF armor history is extremely difficult with very limited reliable sources. I have one very good source but he is very busy and spends lots of time on duty in the field...especially now. It's a shame that Latrun can't be any more helpful and I have yet to get any replies from them, either from English or my limited Hebrew.. Looks as if IDF used radials until all M-50s had been upgraded then started on 51s and it would appear that some still ran radials in 1975 when the reserve units 51s were turned in for Cents and M-48A5s. Nice thing though, that since there were no specified standard designs and shops doing the work as they came in, some little variances in stowage boxes are kosher for 50 & 51s.
