T 23 Sherman M1A1C Turret Kit preview
08-28-2015, 02:47 AM
#1
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T 23 Sherman M1A1C Turret Kit preview
hi
i want to show you ouer new Turret Kit for the sherman.
and this is how the kit looks like.
cu christian
i want to show you ouer new Turret Kit for the sherman.
and this is how the kit looks like.
cu christian
08-28-2015, 12:01 PM
#6
I can tell you molded off a mato T23 and added an oval loader hatch. Very nice work. The big give away that it is a mato copy is the mantle and its lift rings and the incorrect mantle pivot point and side. Also the single hatch commanders couploa has a non prototypical funny cut out of the spalsh ring so you can get a finger nail under the hatch to lift it up.
I have been working a mato T23 over with a scale gun and servo operation for the last couple weeks.
The other thing that is really obtuse about the mato T23 is the ugly oversized pistol hatch on the side. Unmodified the Mato T23 is very toyish looking IMHO.
I dont want to come off as bashing your work, the modling looks nice and I know what kind of effort it takes.
My other concern is how leagal what you have done is, I cannt say exactly, but you are in a grey area and might get contacted by Mato since inquires to them have gotten repsonses that they may rerelase that tank model again.
I have been working a mato T23 over with a scale gun and servo operation for the last couple weeks.
The other thing that is really obtuse about the mato T23 is the ugly oversized pistol hatch on the side. Unmodified the Mato T23 is very toyish looking IMHO.
I dont want to come off as bashing your work, the modling looks nice and I know what kind of effort it takes.
My other concern is how leagal what you have done is, I cannt say exactly, but you are in a grey area and might get contacted by Mato since inquires to them have gotten repsonses that they may rerelase that tank model again.
08-28-2015, 01:48 PM
#7
^ this
You'll get some stick for this Rich, but I'm with you. Its one thing to clone something for your personal use, but quite another to sell it.
I'm ok with people using an existing part as a basis for original work (see Firenick's M4A1 hull - there is some Tamiya under all that filler), but recasts are a no-no for me.
Moving on to the pieces, the worst part of the Mato is the mantlet for me. The gun is mounted too high and the shape is wrong, also I think the travel lock is the 105 version and not the one fitted to a 76mm - bit of debate on this one, war time vs rebuild etc...
Long story short - I'm sorry Christian, but this isn't going to work for me
You'll get some stick for this Rich, but I'm with you. Its one thing to clone something for your personal use, but quite another to sell it.
I'm ok with people using an existing part as a basis for original work (see Firenick's M4A1 hull - there is some Tamiya under all that filler), but recasts are a no-no for me.
Moving on to the pieces, the worst part of the Mato is the mantlet for me. The gun is mounted too high and the shape is wrong, also I think the travel lock is the 105 version and not the one fitted to a 76mm - bit of debate on this one, war time vs rebuild etc...
Long story short - I'm sorry Christian, but this isn't going to work for me
08-28-2015, 03:02 PM
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hi
thanks for your response.
the model is created by a frind of me, because he wanted to build the fury out of the film :-) and sure the basic model was about an existing sherman turret out of a modelers trash box lol, but now it is an diverent kind of turret, diverent build art, one peace with polysterol flor, Diverent Turret uper deck and some modevikations inside, and some other parts. so this can t be telled as an copy, its just a copy of a remodelled Turret. But we will see. I have god conection to mato so i think we will handel this if there is any problem. For example if i will create a vk 4501 turret in the future, i surly will use a standart heng long tiger turret as a base and than start modiving it unti it is a real 4501 turret. than its no copy of an Heng Long turret, it is something new. or do i see it wrong?
about the failures, please tell me all failures you see on that turret or you want to improve. I m not a sherman expert i just thought my frind did a nice job with it and it might be interesting for you. If the turret do have to many or to big failures it will be replaced.
cu christian
thanks for your response.
the model is created by a frind of me, because he wanted to build the fury out of the film :-) and sure the basic model was about an existing sherman turret out of a modelers trash box lol, but now it is an diverent kind of turret, diverent build art, one peace with polysterol flor, Diverent Turret uper deck and some modevikations inside, and some other parts. so this can t be telled as an copy, its just a copy of a remodelled Turret. But we will see. I have god conection to mato so i think we will handel this if there is any problem. For example if i will create a vk 4501 turret in the future, i surly will use a standart heng long tiger turret as a base and than start modiving it unti it is a real 4501 turret. than its no copy of an Heng Long turret, it is something new. or do i see it wrong?
about the failures, please tell me all failures you see on that turret or you want to improve. I m not a sherman expert i just thought my frind did a nice job with it and it might be interesting for you. If the turret do have to many or to big failures it will be replaced.
cu christian
08-28-2015, 03:52 PM
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hi
thank you very much, yes the diverent of gun mantel is big, lol 3 guys and we didn t notice that. :-(. this problem should be easily rework able.
cu christian
thank you very much, yes the diverent of gun mantel is big, lol 3 guys and we didn t notice that. :-(. this problem should be easily rework able.
cu christian
08-28-2015, 05:15 PM
#11
I think it's fine Chris... a good baseline for the modeler to modify or change.
At least there's another choice and I like it.
Jeff
At least there's another choice and I like it.
Jeff
08-28-2015, 08:35 PM
#12
Chris, your turret is nice and very useable as is. With the tank hobby, it comes down to how scale you want to be and what you are doing and your objective.
I have come from scale model trains where I have been soldering together brass locomotives and making very scale models that also move on the train track.
For me I want my tanks to be as real and scale as possible. The Henglong hull is close but details are bit rough scale and need to be reword, the basic hull is good though. Tamiya is ofcourse about perfect. The mato 76 turret is very wrong in many ways and any project that starts with it will suffer slightly out of scale or larger than scale details. Such as the pistol port of the terrible design of the mantlet and gun mount.
I have built an EZ8 using a Tamiya hull and Nicks T23 turret that is of exquisite quality and detail. you can review my build thread here. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-t...ez8-build.html I am almost done with it just need to fit the tools to the rear deck. and paint the hull.
Why then am I reworking a mato T23 turret you may ask if I feel its so out of spec?
Well, the first huge benefit is it was designed to fit on a HL type hull barbette and rotation motor system. Nicks highly detailed T23 was designed for a larger hole on the Tamiya hull.
Next, it was very easy to remove the airsoft gun, cut off the obtuse giant barrel and bushing it down and install an aluminum scale barrel. I also cut away at the back side of the skirting of the mantle around the side and bottom to allow it to elevate and de-elevate more range. I also worked up servos for elevation and barrel recoil. Then I grafted a henglong pistol hatch onto the side after grinding the stock one down. I then glued the two halfs together and cut the bottom out and added screw brackets to make the bottom sturdy but removeable for servicing. Next I will file off the parting lines of the turret halves and texture the turret to look like cast metal so it is not smooth.
Why am I doing all this work, because Im going to drop it on a henglong hull and run with it mostly to loan out to friends. My Tamiya stock Sherman got rolled over by a friend, I don't really want that happening to the rest of mine so I feel this project will look good, lots of people wont notice its off in some ways, and I can loan it out and not worry about it because its more toy like than my other builds. If I don't sell it off it will likely become one my little boy will learn to use as he gets older.
So keep working with your project and have fun with making it look good. The whole benefit of that thing is it will drop onto a henglong hull for a speedy easy build. We need more 76 shermans on the battlefield. Seems everybody has a damn Tiger.
I have come from scale model trains where I have been soldering together brass locomotives and making very scale models that also move on the train track.
For me I want my tanks to be as real and scale as possible. The Henglong hull is close but details are bit rough scale and need to be reword, the basic hull is good though. Tamiya is ofcourse about perfect. The mato 76 turret is very wrong in many ways and any project that starts with it will suffer slightly out of scale or larger than scale details. Such as the pistol port of the terrible design of the mantlet and gun mount.
I have built an EZ8 using a Tamiya hull and Nicks T23 turret that is of exquisite quality and detail. you can review my build thread here. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-t...ez8-build.html I am almost done with it just need to fit the tools to the rear deck. and paint the hull.
Why then am I reworking a mato T23 turret you may ask if I feel its so out of spec?
Well, the first huge benefit is it was designed to fit on a HL type hull barbette and rotation motor system. Nicks highly detailed T23 was designed for a larger hole on the Tamiya hull.
Next, it was very easy to remove the airsoft gun, cut off the obtuse giant barrel and bushing it down and install an aluminum scale barrel. I also cut away at the back side of the skirting of the mantle around the side and bottom to allow it to elevate and de-elevate more range. I also worked up servos for elevation and barrel recoil. Then I grafted a henglong pistol hatch onto the side after grinding the stock one down. I then glued the two halfs together and cut the bottom out and added screw brackets to make the bottom sturdy but removeable for servicing. Next I will file off the parting lines of the turret halves and texture the turret to look like cast metal so it is not smooth.
Why am I doing all this work, because Im going to drop it on a henglong hull and run with it mostly to loan out to friends. My Tamiya stock Sherman got rolled over by a friend, I don't really want that happening to the rest of mine so I feel this project will look good, lots of people wont notice its off in some ways, and I can loan it out and not worry about it because its more toy like than my other builds. If I don't sell it off it will likely become one my little boy will learn to use as he gets older.
So keep working with your project and have fun with making it look good. The whole benefit of that thing is it will drop onto a henglong hull for a speedy easy build. We need more 76 shermans on the battlefield. Seems everybody has a damn Tiger.
08-28-2015, 08:54 PM
#13
Ex Pat, Ive been bothered by the travel lock issue. Over on the minutia site they claim the 76mm travel lock was the same as the 105 just mounted up higher.
I really wish the museum where we battle had a real travel lock on their EZ8, they have a home made one, but the 105 they have is post war single clamp style. I think I might take some measurements of the mounting points and distance spread and see if they are similar.
Here is a pic of their EZ8. Which does run.
The nice option that this turret kit will give is a very quick M4A3 76w conversion onto a HL. Its either this or a whole ton of effort and work to make use of a firenick T23.
I really wish the museum where we battle had a real travel lock on their EZ8, they have a home made one, but the 105 they have is post war single clamp style. I think I might take some measurements of the mounting points and distance spread and see if they are similar.
Here is a pic of their EZ8. Which does run.
The nice option that this turret kit will give is a very quick M4A3 76w conversion onto a HL. Its either this or a whole ton of effort and work to make use of a firenick T23.
08-29-2015, 06:08 AM
#14
@ Rich
The original Mato one ties in with the one Nick came up with as well - and they both look right against the wartime photos. I'd suggest the Sherman page is wrong, and probably a typo.
@ Christian
Here is a couple of links to comparison photo's I took a few years ago showing the Mato compared with Nick's turret. Hopefully you can see where Mato had to compromise to make the airsoft mechanism fit.
http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/Ex...?sort=3&page=1
http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/Ex...?sort=3&page=1
Some other things to consider:
The oval loaders hatch should be closer in size to the drivers hatch, its quite a bit bigger than the one fitted to the 75mm and 105mm turrets (i.e. the one in the Tamiya kit).
The loaders hatch was something I spliced in myself, so I wouldn't take the position and orientation as anything more than 'approximately right'..
The Mato commanders hatch is very flat, and should be like the Tamiya one with a more noticeable periscope and handle.
Legally, I believe you need to be able to prove you've changed the design of the item by a minimum of 30% for it to be considered a derivative work, and not a copy. Change the mantlet for your own (better) design and you should be good
Mantlet pivot point height:
Bear in mind that this is a turret intended to fit on a Tamiya hull, but the HL one has a 1mm high pad for the turret to sit on - so you should probably lower it on yours to about 27mm above the hull rather than the 28mm I'm measuring here.
Hope this helps,
The original Mato one ties in with the one Nick came up with as well - and they both look right against the wartime photos. I'd suggest the Sherman page is wrong, and probably a typo.
@ Christian
Here is a couple of links to comparison photo's I took a few years ago showing the Mato compared with Nick's turret. Hopefully you can see where Mato had to compromise to make the airsoft mechanism fit.
http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/Ex...?sort=3&page=1
http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/Ex...?sort=3&page=1
Some other things to consider:
The oval loaders hatch should be closer in size to the drivers hatch, its quite a bit bigger than the one fitted to the 75mm and 105mm turrets (i.e. the one in the Tamiya kit).
The loaders hatch was something I spliced in myself, so I wouldn't take the position and orientation as anything more than 'approximately right'..
The Mato commanders hatch is very flat, and should be like the Tamiya one with a more noticeable periscope and handle.
Legally, I believe you need to be able to prove you've changed the design of the item by a minimum of 30% for it to be considered a derivative work, and not a copy. Change the mantlet for your own (better) design and you should be good
Mantlet pivot point height:
Bear in mind that this is a turret intended to fit on a Tamiya hull, but the HL one has a 1mm high pad for the turret to sit on - so you should probably lower it on yours to about 27mm above the hull rather than the 28mm I'm measuring here.
Hope this helps,
08-29-2015, 06:16 AM
#15
Also @ Rich
The Mato turret has a lip on its that's about the same diameter as the hole in the bottom of Nicks turret, it takes about an hour or so to cut around that lip and file it down circular, and a moment or 2 to cut the bottom lip and attachment lugs off of Nick's.
Hey presto - a simple press fit! Once I'm happy with the wiring, I'll use something non permanent like latex glue to hold to two together.
The Mato turret has a lip on its that's about the same diameter as the hole in the bottom of Nicks turret, it takes about an hour or so to cut around that lip and file it down circular, and a moment or 2 to cut the bottom lip and attachment lugs off of Nick's.
Hey presto - a simple press fit! Once I'm happy with the wiring, I'll use something non permanent like latex glue to hold to two together.
08-31-2015, 12:07 AM
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moin
thank you very much for the sugestions and fotos.
if it were a Tiger we had found out these mistakes easyly lol. its interestening to see how diverent the point of view change the results.
we will start redesining it to make it more akurat :-).
cu christian
thank you very much for the sugestions and fotos.
if it were a Tiger we had found out these mistakes easyly lol. its interestening to see how diverent the point of view change the results.
we will start redesining it to make it more akurat :-).
cu christian
11-12-2015, 09:42 AM
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hi
during the last weeks some work was done.
still some work to do at the gun mantel.
and a new moveable hatch for the comander :-)
it will be made in metal like the first one.
the failure with the cupola will be fixed too at a new turret.
cu christian
during the last weeks some work was done.
still some work to do at the gun mantel.
and a new moveable hatch for the comander :-)
it will be made in metal like the first one.
the failure with the cupola will be fixed too at a new turret.
cu christian
11-12-2015, 10:30 AM
#18
Ok dude, now your cooking. That mantlet looks better. You need to fill in the finger nail catch on the commanders hatch ring, and hopefully you can address the pistol port hatch.
I filed down the area where it was and grafted a henglong sherman pistol hatch in andit came out looking great after i textured it.
ille post you some pics.
I filed down the area where it was and grafted a henglong sherman pistol hatch in andit came out looking great after i textured it.
ille post you some pics.
11-12-2015, 08:23 PM
#20
Take a look at my rework of the mato turret. you can see how I clearly changed the pistol port. IT really makes the turret look so much better.
I may buy one of your turrets and make another one of these tanks as it seems I probably have this one sold.
In other issues, will you sell some of your parts? I see some detail castings I would love to buy for my tanks.
I may buy one of your turrets and make another one of these tanks as it seems I probably have this one sold.
In other issues, will you sell some of your parts? I see some detail castings I would love to buy for my tanks.
11-13-2015, 02:35 AM
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hi
you mean the hatch on the side of the turret?
yes let me knew what parts are interestenig for you, my sherman side is growing step by step.
http://www.ludwigs-hobby-seite.de/US...zeug%20HQ.html
cu christian
you mean the hatch on the side of the turret?
yes let me knew what parts are interestenig for you, my sherman side is growing step by step.
http://www.ludwigs-hobby-seite.de/US...zeug%20HQ.html
cu christian
12-04-2015, 07:29 PM
#25
I really hate to criticize your work, I know how much effort it is to make that turret and then make a mold and recast it each time, but the pistol port still doesn't look right. Look at these photos http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m...m_turrets.html and the one I posted here. If you want to sell the turrets you have to make them accurate. Your almost there, but that pistol hatch just isn't right at all.
I used the pistol hatch off of a Henglong Sherman. You could easily get one, then cut it out of the armored bulge that surrounds it, and then grind out the square in the middle of your bulge and glue just the hatch and the hinge on top of it in place.
I used the pistol hatch off of a Henglong Sherman. You could easily get one, then cut it out of the armored bulge that surrounds it, and then grind out the square in the middle of your bulge and glue just the hatch and the hinge on top of it in place.
