My new beast
08-09-2018, 06:19 PM
#52
Thread Starter
Bob and Derek, thank you both so much for taking the time to share your knowledge. I have printed out the posts and am now going over your recommendations and I see where I have gone wrong, like a 6 way switch, it had one from when it had the voltage converter and the blank shooter. Now it’s not needed.
As I am going over them and it’s starting to make sense a little now lol I have some more reading and part ordering and will report back soon. Mark
As I am going over them and it’s starting to make sense a little now lol I have some more reading and part ordering and will report back soon. Mark
08-09-2018, 06:40 PM
#53
No problem. Of course all of these are just suggestions. There is more than one way to do things. These are just some of the ways I addressed issues in my builds. The magic smoke can come pretty quick and become quite expensive in larger machines with robotic grade hardware. I blew up a $285 RobotPower RS-80D ESC years ago and popped a few fuses in my builds. Unfortunately no one repairs them that I know of due to the complexity of that particular ESC. Lessons learned... 
08-10-2018, 02:45 PM
#54
Marko
Electronics have changed a lot since that model was built. The only reason I can see to use a six way switch would be to activate 5-6 things at once via a mechanical switch on/off. Or perhaps active some features and not others (gun fire and noise, but disable tracks???)
If you use the buss bar Derek showed - you are doing a similar thing electrically, powering on/off multiple things (whatever is connected to buss bar) with one on-off breaker switch.
There are a bunch of ways to skin a cat.
I'm learning too - there's a lot of good information and talented people here.
Bob
Electronics have changed a lot since that model was built. The only reason I can see to use a six way switch would be to activate 5-6 things at once via a mechanical switch on/off. Or perhaps active some features and not others (gun fire and noise, but disable tracks???)
If you use the buss bar Derek showed - you are doing a similar thing electrically, powering on/off multiple things (whatever is connected to buss bar) with one on-off breaker switch.
There are a bunch of ways to skin a cat.
I'm learning too - there's a lot of good information and talented people here.
Bob
Last edited by RC_BobM; 08-10-2018 at 02:53 PM.
08-15-2018, 06:51 PM
#55
Thread Starter
Too much work and not enough tank time.
A couple of questions , over the last few days I have gathered some stuff. I got the reset switch and some wire.
I managed to gather some 4,8, 12,14 gage wire and I found a few fuse bars for 8 gage also they are big ! Are these overkill or will it work with the existing wires
12 gage power and 16 to motors . Would a 12 gage work in a 100a fuse block with holes for 8 gage ? I have been reading online but after a while it all starts to make no sense again lol.
i added a photo of where the fuse inverter switch will go.
Cheers Mark
Last edited by Markocaster; 08-15-2018 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Photo
08-15-2018, 07:52 PM
#56
Marcocaster -
You will want the biggest gage size wire from the batteries to the buss-bar, main switch, and power into the ESC. The wire for the motors can be smaller. What is the amp rating of your motors? Do they have a part number on them? Did the original/builder have any fuses on motor wires? What size are the fuses? It looks like the main track motors are 24V, but what amperage raring (MAX or Stall)?
I would start with main track motor amps needed and work back from there. Larger wire is better for carrying power - but at some point the huge wire gets unmanageable because of stiffness, size of terminals etc..
It looks like from the images of the original wiring that the main power wires were 12 gage soldered to the Vantec- so you could stick with that size, or go a little bigger (ie 10 AWG). Larger wire will run cooler (not get hot) and be able to supply more amps easily, as long as it fits into the terminals on the Vantec it should be fine. The motor wires do not need to be as heavy gage of wire (14ga) because their current is regulated by the Vantec speed controller.
You can use smaller wire on larger screw type terminals. I always tin the stripped stranded wires together -you can get higher clamping force on them (from screw type terminals) than smushing small stranded bare wires.
I also think the 150A may be too high a rated breaker for this model. That's a lot of amps going into the Speed controller if something goes wrong - you want to protect the electronics, not have high current ruin them potentially. Those are cheap - I wouldn't think you'd need more than 30-50amp version (or possibly less). The Vantec may have a current limiting shut off. I like the position of the main switch breaker - under the hatch for easy access.
All other secondary motors and servos (gun elevation, recoil, smoker fans etc) should draw much fewer amps than the main motors.
Bob
You will want the biggest gage size wire from the batteries to the buss-bar, main switch, and power into the ESC. The wire for the motors can be smaller. What is the amp rating of your motors? Do they have a part number on them? Did the original/builder have any fuses on motor wires? What size are the fuses? It looks like the main track motors are 24V, but what amperage raring (MAX or Stall)?
I would start with main track motor amps needed and work back from there. Larger wire is better for carrying power - but at some point the huge wire gets unmanageable because of stiffness, size of terminals etc..
It looks like from the images of the original wiring that the main power wires were 12 gage soldered to the Vantec- so you could stick with that size, or go a little bigger (ie 10 AWG). Larger wire will run cooler (not get hot) and be able to supply more amps easily, as long as it fits into the terminals on the Vantec it should be fine. The motor wires do not need to be as heavy gage of wire (14ga) because their current is regulated by the Vantec speed controller.
You can use smaller wire on larger screw type terminals. I always tin the stripped stranded wires together -you can get higher clamping force on them (from screw type terminals) than smushing small stranded bare wires.
I also think the 150A may be too high a rated breaker for this model. That's a lot of amps going into the Speed controller if something goes wrong - you want to protect the electronics, not have high current ruin them potentially. Those are cheap - I wouldn't think you'd need more than 30-50amp version (or possibly less). The Vantec may have a current limiting shut off. I like the position of the main switch breaker - under the hatch for easy access.
All other secondary motors and servos (gun elevation, recoil, smoker fans etc) should draw much fewer amps than the main motors.
Bob
Last edited by RC_BobM; 08-15-2018 at 08:44 PM.
08-15-2018, 08:42 PM
#57
Thread Starter
Bob , thank again and Yes the vantec is 12 gage , and I will stick to that and maybe use a little larger as you suggest.
The original owner had a 30 amp circuit breaker on it. I see what your saying about 150 too much I will find a smaller one.
As for my motors I have no clue ?? All I know is they are 16 pole 4 carbons each ? There is no brand or info on them.
Im
going to draw up a schematic over the next couple of days and see what you think before I begin any actual hook up.
Cheers Mark
The original owner had a 30 amp circuit breaker on it. I see what your saying about 150 too much I will find a smaller one.
As for my motors I have no clue ?? All I know is they are 16 pole 4 carbons each ? There is no brand or info on them.
Im
going to draw up a schematic over the next couple of days and see what you think before I begin any actual hook up.
Cheers Mark
08-16-2018, 08:38 PM
#58
Thread Starter
I sketched up a quick diagram of where I am now and how I think it should be. Except for the area with the blue circle. For that I was trying to decide if the fuse box would be good vdc32 100A. Also I have the circuit breaker switch shown, I could use that in place of the key kill switch. Is this enough or overkill ? I hope this makes sense. I have all weekend off and hope to make it move !!!
thanks again and here are the photos
thanks again and here are the photos
08-17-2018, 04:55 PM
#59
Mark
I made a few redlines. The redlines are similar to how I wired my tank drive motors, but my track motors are 1/4 HP each and 80A @ stall. Your 1/10 scale will be smaller power/amps. I'm also using a sabertooth ESC, but hookup should be similar.
Some notes:
1) You may not need the fuse/breaker on the track motor wires, but I think its a good idea. It protects the motor from burning up if it stalls. These models can stall the motor if a rock or branch gets in the sprocket or track comes off and jams somehow - seen it happen. Most motors are ok to stall for a few seconds, but if the motor stalls and you don't realize it <turn down throttle lever on radio> you may damage a motor. If you have a fuse in this condition - the fuse will pop protecting the motor from too much current.
2) 50A seems like a lot for fuse/breaker on track motors however. That is what I use for my tank, but it is much bigger motors than 1/10 scale. I would try a smaller fuse, if the fuse pops, then go up (for example if you try a 10A fuse and it keeps popping during normal driving, you need a bigger fuse). Could use automotive type blade fuse, or resettable breaker. What you want is a fuse or breaker that doesn't pop during normal operation, but will pop quickly when motor is stalled. This is why it is somewhat important to know what the stall torque rating is for the motors. If you have an adjustable voltage/amp meter you could perhaps stall the motor and measure the current. But on high torque motors this could get interesting in a hurry (think heavy duty hand drill with 1/2" drill bit stalled in a piece of steel and hit the trigger).
3) I'm not sure what the 12V 30A thing is off to the side. Another motor for gun traverse? A 12V voltage regulator?
4) I've sketched the main switch breaker on the battery supply wires to the ESC. When switch is tripped (open) no power goes to ESC. No power to ESC means no power to track motors.
5) If the model has more motors you will need to figure out how to power those. This is where a buss bar can be handy - but only if the motors can handle 24V (since your main motors and batteries as shown in sketch are wired for 24V). If secondary motors are less voltage (ie 6-12V) you may need a small secondary ESC or a voltage regulator. Here is a ESC, that could be used as a secondary motor controller (if you need it) that can take up to 24V input.
https://www.dimensionengineering.com...bertooth2x12rc
I made a few redlines. The redlines are similar to how I wired my tank drive motors, but my track motors are 1/4 HP each and 80A @ stall. Your 1/10 scale will be smaller power/amps. I'm also using a sabertooth ESC, but hookup should be similar.
Some notes:
1) You may not need the fuse/breaker on the track motor wires, but I think its a good idea. It protects the motor from burning up if it stalls. These models can stall the motor if a rock or branch gets in the sprocket or track comes off and jams somehow - seen it happen. Most motors are ok to stall for a few seconds, but if the motor stalls and you don't realize it <turn down throttle lever on radio> you may damage a motor. If you have a fuse in this condition - the fuse will pop protecting the motor from too much current.
2) 50A seems like a lot for fuse/breaker on track motors however. That is what I use for my tank, but it is much bigger motors than 1/10 scale. I would try a smaller fuse, if the fuse pops, then go up (for example if you try a 10A fuse and it keeps popping during normal driving, you need a bigger fuse). Could use automotive type blade fuse, or resettable breaker. What you want is a fuse or breaker that doesn't pop during normal operation, but will pop quickly when motor is stalled. This is why it is somewhat important to know what the stall torque rating is for the motors. If you have an adjustable voltage/amp meter you could perhaps stall the motor and measure the current. But on high torque motors this could get interesting in a hurry (think heavy duty hand drill with 1/2" drill bit stalled in a piece of steel and hit the trigger).
3) I'm not sure what the 12V 30A thing is off to the side. Another motor for gun traverse? A 12V voltage regulator?
4) I've sketched the main switch breaker on the battery supply wires to the ESC. When switch is tripped (open) no power goes to ESC. No power to ESC means no power to track motors.
5) If the model has more motors you will need to figure out how to power those. This is where a buss bar can be handy - but only if the motors can handle 24V (since your main motors and batteries as shown in sketch are wired for 24V). If secondary motors are less voltage (ie 6-12V) you may need a small secondary ESC or a voltage regulator. Here is a ESC, that could be used as a secondary motor controller (if you need it) that can take up to 24V input.
https://www.dimensionengineering.com...bertooth2x12rc
Last edited by RC_BobM; 08-17-2018 at 05:42 PM.
08-17-2018, 06:34 PM
#60
When I hear 20, 30, 50 or 100 amps I have to believe very few electrical components of the type usually found in a model, motors especially
won't stand up long to that sort of current flow.. Peak or momentary perhaps. Admittedly I'm not an electric power guy.
I need anywhere from 5-12 amps, momentary to power the self starters in my models. I'm paying attention to this thread as I'm looking to
implement a hybrid transmission in one of my models; main power by a 4 cycle engine and steering via a secondary differential gear ( think Tamiya
Leopard 2 transmission) powered by a torque strong electric motor.
Jerry
won't stand up long to that sort of current flow.. Peak or momentary perhaps. Admittedly I'm not an electric power guy.
I need anywhere from 5-12 amps, momentary to power the self starters in my models. I'm paying attention to this thread as I'm looking to
implement a hybrid transmission in one of my models; main power by a 4 cycle engine and steering via a secondary differential gear ( think Tamiya
Leopard 2 transmission) powered by a torque strong electric motor.
Jerry
08-17-2018, 07:48 PM
#61
Jerry,
Totally agree with you - I think your Amp range (5-12) is probably correct for the JP in question. Its difficult to determine what is correct on older motors with no specs.
My model is 1/6 scale and bigger/heavier than this one. Each of my tracks weigh 8lbs (x2 = 16lbs just in tracks). Each track motor is 1/4 horsepower, so the Amps required for moving at speed and turning is higher. I purchased the NPC motors new, so I had the Amp rating in hand. Without that its a bit of trial and error.
For large scale 1/6-1/4 scale models, weighing 100-250lbs the power required to move them goes up, esp in rough terrain. So DC motors drawing 30-60Amps each is not unheard of. Voltage also plays a part, my model is all 12V so the motors draw higher amps than would a 24V system.
Bob
Totally agree with you - I think your Amp range (5-12) is probably correct for the JP in question. Its difficult to determine what is correct on older motors with no specs.
My model is 1/6 scale and bigger/heavier than this one. Each of my tracks weigh 8lbs (x2 = 16lbs just in tracks). Each track motor is 1/4 horsepower, so the Amps required for moving at speed and turning is higher. I purchased the NPC motors new, so I had the Amp rating in hand. Without that its a bit of trial and error.
For large scale 1/6-1/4 scale models, weighing 100-250lbs the power required to move them goes up, esp in rough terrain. So DC motors drawing 30-60Amps each is not unheard of. Voltage also plays a part, my model is all 12V so the motors draw higher amps than would a 24V system.
Bob
08-17-2018, 08:30 PM
#62
I know the 1/6 scale stuff is heavy. I know Mark's JagdPanther a bit and it's relatively light construction and the tracks,
if I recall are polypropylene. The sprockets may be brass or bronze and the body is ~2mm maybe 3mm aluminum sheet.
My own JagdPanthers weigh 65-75 pounds and my first King Tiger is just shy of 100. Later next year I hope to begin on
my E100 which may tip the scale at better than 130 pounds with the Geiswerk tracks weighing around 24 pounds by themselves.
The engine/transmission I use weighs about 20-25 pounds by itself.
The difference is my models are all powered by an engine; glow 2 or 4 cycle. When I mentioned starter I meant the engine starter
requiring 7-12 amps. and just long enough to start the engine. I believe 130 pounds will be pushing the limit for my configuration
and I don't want a model heavier than that which is why I've stayed away from 1.6 scale- I think they're terrific I just don't want to lug
something that heavy around.. you 1/6 scale guys have a out sized canvas for detail.. When my Maus shows up it will be electric
and about 120 pounds.
With the above mentioned heavies plus one or two more I'm done with the big boys and will be all small guys in which and IBU or
open panzer board will work fine. Yes, most of my small guys will be electric, if I wait until I build trannies for all of them to be gas
I'd need 2 more lifetimes....
Jerry
if I recall are polypropylene. The sprockets may be brass or bronze and the body is ~2mm maybe 3mm aluminum sheet.
My own JagdPanthers weigh 65-75 pounds and my first King Tiger is just shy of 100. Later next year I hope to begin on
my E100 which may tip the scale at better than 130 pounds with the Geiswerk tracks weighing around 24 pounds by themselves.
The engine/transmission I use weighs about 20-25 pounds by itself.
The difference is my models are all powered by an engine; glow 2 or 4 cycle. When I mentioned starter I meant the engine starter
requiring 7-12 amps. and just long enough to start the engine. I believe 130 pounds will be pushing the limit for my configuration
and I don't want a model heavier than that which is why I've stayed away from 1.6 scale- I think they're terrific I just don't want to lug
something that heavy around.. you 1/6 scale guys have a out sized canvas for detail.. When my Maus shows up it will be electric
and about 120 pounds.
With the above mentioned heavies plus one or two more I'm done with the big boys and will be all small guys in which and IBU or
open panzer board will work fine. Yes, most of my small guys will be electric, if I wait until I build trannies for all of them to be gas
I'd need 2 more lifetimes....
Jerry
08-18-2018, 10:37 AM
#63
Thread Starter
Bob. Thanks ! I got up early ran to the marine supply store and got a few inline fuses. The glass type starting at 5 amp. Wires it up as shown in the diagram and nothing ! Could it be because I don’t have a ground to the chassis anymore. Oh boy this stuff is
frustrating. A little break then I will have another go !
Ok , I had another look and a wire wasn’t properly connected, I reworked and ran it on one 12v to test. It worked but the speed was erratic, after hooking the batteries to 24v it seems to have solved that. Holy cow ! I’m not going to get too excited yet lol. Will report back later. Cheers Mark
frustrating. A little break then I will have another go !
Ok , I had another look and a wire wasn’t properly connected, I reworked and ran it on one 12v to test. It worked but the speed was erratic, after hooking the batteries to 24v it seems to have solved that. Holy cow ! I’m not going to get too excited yet lol. Will report back later. Cheers Mark
Last edited by Markocaster; 08-18-2018 at 10:55 AM.
08-18-2018, 06:05 PM
#64
Thread Starter
I hooked it all up it ran for a few seconds and stopped ! But as you advised it was the fuse. I started at 5 amp and it didn’t last long so I have put in 10 amp and so far it goes good slow. I still have one issue to work out when the tank power is turned on it creeps ahead without any stick movement. It’s a pain when trying to stop and turn it off it wants to zoom away, so if I wanted to add an on off toggle where would that go ? I am done the night lol. Going to have a run in the yard to see how it goes under a little speed. Cheers Mark
Last edited by Markocaster; 08-18-2018 at 06:18 PM.
08-19-2018, 09:30 AM
#65
Mark
Its usually something simple if it doesn't work. I solder all terminals on the wires (even though they are crimped etc) to avoid the dreaded partial intermittent connection. 24V motors will need 24V supplied or they will not run correctly - they will not like being starved at 12V. The creeping may because there is some trim adjustment needed on your radio. Whatever channel you are using for the forward motion, adjust the trim down some. If using a spectrum each channel/stick on the radio has a trim button. Try adjusting that button until it doesn't move. It should not creep or move with no stick input. Also make sure you are using a self centering stick for the forward/reverse movement - a tiny amount of stick movement will cause the model to move - like with a ratcheting stick on radio (one that doesn't return to center). If you turn on the power to model w motion controlled by a ratcheting stick, and the stick is tweaked a tiny bit forward - IT WILL TAKE OFF!
One last thought - follow the proper turn on sequence protocol. Make sure radio/receiver is powered on first, then turn on model. Turning on model first can cause movement as well as it is essentially not controlled by anything until the radio is on.
Bob
Its usually something simple if it doesn't work. I solder all terminals on the wires (even though they are crimped etc) to avoid the dreaded partial intermittent connection. 24V motors will need 24V supplied or they will not run correctly - they will not like being starved at 12V. The creeping may because there is some trim adjustment needed on your radio. Whatever channel you are using for the forward motion, adjust the trim down some. If using a spectrum each channel/stick on the radio has a trim button. Try adjusting that button until it doesn't move. It should not creep or move with no stick input. Also make sure you are using a self centering stick for the forward/reverse movement - a tiny amount of stick movement will cause the model to move - like with a ratcheting stick on radio (one that doesn't return to center). If you turn on the power to model w motion controlled by a ratcheting stick, and the stick is tweaked a tiny bit forward - IT WILL TAKE OFF!
One last thought - follow the proper turn on sequence protocol. Make sure radio/receiver is powered on first, then turn on model. Turning on model first can cause movement as well as it is essentially not controlled by anything until the radio is on.
Bob
Last edited by RC_BobM; 08-19-2018 at 09:34 AM.
08-21-2018, 06:26 PM
#66
Thread Starter
Bob thanks for those helpful hints. I have made to start up protocol mistake once ! It lept ahead into my knee.
I tinned all the wires before crimping on the connectors.
I have switched radios and I am having better results. I left the spektrum as it wouldn’t stop creeping no matter what I tried. I am now using the flysky i6s. I got If sometime ago and hadn’t tried it out. It’s super easy to work and the tank no longer creeps. It sounds like it wants to however as the motors make a humming noise till the stick is moved a little. It was also turning the wrong directions so a quick reverse of ch1 and it’s good to go ! Lots more to learn but it’s looking good !
originally the speed controller was set up for one stick driving. Is this preferable or 2 stick ?
Jerry I am probably going to need to email you when I get to installation of the ibu2pro I am sure I will have questions!
I tinned all the wires before crimping on the connectors.
I have switched radios and I am having better results. I left the spektrum as it wouldn’t stop creeping no matter what I tried. I am now using the flysky i6s. I got If sometime ago and hadn’t tried it out. It’s super easy to work and the tank no longer creeps. It sounds like it wants to however as the motors make a humming noise till the stick is moved a little. It was also turning the wrong directions so a quick reverse of ch1 and it’s good to go ! Lots more to learn but it’s looking good !
originally the speed controller was set up for one stick driving. Is this preferable or 2 stick ?
Jerry I am probably going to need to email you when I get to installation of the ibu2pro I am sure I will have questions!
Last edited by Markocaster; 08-21-2018 at 06:44 PM.
08-21-2018, 06:48 PM
#67
Mark,
I've heard this problem occurs only with Spectrum radios. Haven't had trouble with mine yet. Surprised adjusting the trim didn't resolve it however.
The humming is ok. I have a couple crawler trucks that hum/squeal like that - its ok as long as they don't move.
Yes reverse the channel input into the receiver if it steers opposite of what you want. If motors go backward when stick is forward, then reverse motor wires where they plug into ESC. Or you can switch direction within the radio (reverse servo direction).
You/(we) are learning....
Integrating the IBU2 will be interesting as it has it own motor controllers? Are you keeping the Vantec for the main motor drive? We may have to re-learn this process with IBU2....
Once the radio is set right and you are familiar with it - I would run it hard for as long as your can. See if the fuses hold/ or pop, stuff overheats, tracks stay on (or not), how long batteries last etc.
Bob
I've heard this problem occurs only with Spectrum radios. Haven't had trouble with mine yet. Surprised adjusting the trim didn't resolve it however.
The humming is ok. I have a couple crawler trucks that hum/squeal like that - its ok as long as they don't move.
Yes reverse the channel input into the receiver if it steers opposite of what you want. If motors go backward when stick is forward, then reverse motor wires where they plug into ESC. Or you can switch direction within the radio (reverse servo direction).
You/(we) are learning....
Integrating the IBU2 will be interesting as it has it own motor controllers? Are you keeping the Vantec for the main motor drive? We may have to re-learn this process with IBU2....
Once the radio is set right and you are familiar with it - I would run it hard for as long as your can. See if the fuses hold/ or pop, stuff overheats, tracks stay on (or not), how long batteries last etc.
Bob
so this was scratch built or from a kit? I'd like one just like it.... (have a henglong, but too small)
08-23-2018, 11:58 AM
#69
Thread Starter
Thanks spinnetti its scratch built about 15yrs ago I believe, by a gentleman in Holland. The size is great, much bigger than henglong but not too big 👍
08-28-2018, 03:48 PM
#70
Thread Starter
I made a 20 second movie on my phone. However rc universe says it’s not an acceptable file type. So I have to wait till I get to work tomorrow. I’m so stoked, it runs well !!!
09-04-2018, 08:42 AM
#74
Wow, it is quick and runs smooth. Need a sound board for motor sound, no need for the track squeak though. LOL
09-04-2018, 08:07 PM
#75
Thread Starter
I took it out for its first test run full out ! It’s fast and nimble ! No fuses blew etc I was having a blast !Well for 5 minutes then things stopped acting as they should and it started behaving like a ghost was driving it lol , I believe it’s time to finally look into Lipo batteries. The led acid are huge and if I can get a smaller battery that lasts longer that’s a plus.
I have to look into the Vantec to see if I need to make any changes for Lipo. Then the final thing is to get some sound.
I did find out some more info on my motors they are minertia motor mini series ugtmen-03lph22
A few ?’s first how would I hook the ibu2pro up to use like Gary did on his hetzer?
This is a stretch but could the newest version of Taigen electrics be made to work in the tank ? Since it now works w a hobby radio ? Not for steering but for smoke and sound ?
or maybe I should order an open Panzer board but I have an ibu2 here and would like to use that if possible.
Cheers Mark
I have to look into the Vantec to see if I need to make any changes for Lipo. Then the final thing is to get some sound.
I did find out some more info on my motors they are minertia motor mini series ugtmen-03lph22
A few ?’s first how would I hook the ibu2pro up to use like Gary did on his hetzer?
This is a stretch but could the newest version of Taigen electrics be made to work in the tank ? Since it now works w a hobby radio ? Not for steering but for smoke and sound ?
or maybe I should order an open Panzer board but I have an ibu2 here and would like to use that if possible.
Cheers Mark
Last edited by Markocaster; 09-04-2018 at 09:00 PM.