b.bullfrog

Just wondering if any of the Pershing ever had a different paint job other than just plain olive drab. I've got a month before we start to battle and plently of time to paint something different. Got any ideas?

Panther F

The T26E1 SUPER PERSHINGS of the 33rd Armored Regiment, 3rd Amored Division in Germany, March of '45 was camo painted with bands of black sprayed over olive drab.

Other than that it was the usual olive drab.

edoubleaz

My Feedback: (1)

Late WW2 models had black stripes. The Super Pershing is one example. In Korea, a few white washed vehicles slugged it out at Chosin.

Harquebus

Agreed on the WWII M-26 paint schemes.

For the Korean war, many M-26's were painted to look like tigers or other frightening creatures, often with gaping mouths. The Chinese were very superstitious so this kind of ruse often worked on them.

Here is a relevant thread that shows the typical tiger style paint: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4668575/tm.htm

-Harq

Panther F

Yeah, but the Tiger face alone were M46 Patton's ... like the picture is.

Some of the Pershings in Korea in the 64th tank battalion had an animal's face painted over a blue and white diagonally striped square, which was based on the division's shoulder patch.

Harquebus

Gee whiz. Can you be a little more constructive? I mean we're trying to help this guy not argue over who's correct.

By that I mean have you got any pictures of the M-26 with the animal face?

What reference materials show that only the M-46 had a tiger paint scheme? I'd like to find some original photography for my own uses.

Thanks,
-Harq

b.bullfrog

Any pictures of the tanks in Germany from the 33rd?

Panther F

No arguement from me, just stating what I had read from articles and books I had done some references on. What you will find from alot of museums are not always going to be correct.

I used the following books: Pershing/Patton in action from squadron/signal productions (ISBN 0-89747-442-2, M26/M46 Pershing Tank 1943-1953 New Vanguard (Osprey written with Steve Zaloga), The M26 Pershing and Variants T26E3/M26 M26A1 M45 M46/M46A1 by Schiffer Books (ISBN 9 780764 315442)

Like the Pershing outside at the Patton museum with the Tiger face, it is not historically accurate. I wanted to do the same with my M26A1 and found that no Pershings just had the Tiger face painted on the front hull except the one's as I mentioned before with the blue and white diagonally striped square.

If books are not that easily accessible, then just Google the M26 Pershing Tank and I'm sure you'll find a lot of material that'll give anyone a great start.


Jeff

Panther F

Here are a few helpful links!!

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tank..._pershing.html

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3398

http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id...26pershing.php

b.bullfrog

Thank You - the pictures were helpfull.

pattoncommander

Lots of bogus info out there. Never saw any M-26/26A1 with tigers face. The American Tiger Tanks were up on the line facing the Chinese, hence the tigers. The units were 64th tk bn with M-4A3E8's not Pershings, and 73d tk Bn with M-46's. The 24 Div had M-46s and the 3d Inf Div had the stupid blue/white stripe shoulder patch with the Tiger on it. I was with 7th ID, tank Co 31st Inf and we had plain Jane OD paint. The Marines brought in the first Pershings and stayed with the Marine green. If you want to do a nice korear war Pershing, cut off and discard the front the rear dust shields, fold the center 2 sections up and tack(weld) them in place. With this set-up, instigated by the Marines, a tank can carry about 30 extra boxes or direly needed cal 30 and 50 MG ammo on the fenders. We copied this and it works nice.

Bill

pattoncommander

Harq,

Where did you see Pershings with the Tiger decor? Only some units like the 64, 73d Tk bns and elements of the 24th Div used the scheme during two operations in early '51. The 3d ID did some but with easy 8 Shermans and the rest of us and the Marines stayed with OD...in the COOOOLD winter we did splash whitewash or white paint on the tanks but not entirely.

Bill

pattoncommander

Harq,
Just read some more listings...on the tiger paint scheme, the design was left pretty much up to the tank crews with very little guidance..The box cover on the Dragon M-46 1;35 scale model is nice and Squadron Armor in Korea has some good photos. This book also shows an M-24 from the 25th Div with tiger paint job, but the 24;s were taken pretty much out of the direct conflict areas because they couldn't stand up to the T-34/853 the NKA and Chinese had. Don't recall ever seeing an M-24 other than fast recon units and ROK units after mid 51. The 2nd Marine div brought in the bulk of Pershings and the 1st came in with more. Army units had easy 8 Shemans and M-24s until we swapped them out for the new m-46 Pattons. Some Army units had some Pershings in the Southern areas, but not sure who had them. The first 5 Army Pershings shipped from Japan never made it to the combat areas....parts were not available and they just broke down befoe they got there and at least one had to be destroyed.

Bill

martin g

There is some source of confusion at Bovington, yes blame the Brits! as from a distance the Patton Tank (m46) looks like a pershing ( if your not familiar with both) and the said patton has the Tiger face painted...I will post a pic below, I hope. I believe this has caused a few 'myths'

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...n/IMG_1187.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...n/IMG_1186.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...n/IMG_1185.jpg

A real pershing, as being restored by Bovington by the way...look forward to that being finished. This is a good pic to show the surface finish, stop making them smooth and pretty!!!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...n/IMG_1134.jpg

Note that the tracks are different, HL seem to have put M46 tracks on the Pershing???????????????????????

Hope that helps

swathdiver

IMG 1134 is an early production Pershing with the small blower housing. The tracks are the early single pin. Most, if not all of the of the Operation Zebra tanks had these tracks. Tanks shipped over later and to Okinawa had the double pin chevron type seen in the other photos and on M46s. Remember that almost all M46s are remanufactured M26s.

As for colors, I'm building a M26A1 of the Marine Corps. The early Marine Pershings were olive drab, in fact they were given to them by the Army. These tanks are identified by the OD paint and white stars. In the spring of 1951 the 1st Marine Tank Battalion switched to the M46 and these did not have stars on them, were probably painted in Marine Green. While I haven't seen any color pictures, the Marine Pershings I've seen after 1951 do not have stars on them either so I conclude that they were repainted Marine Green.

Of all the tanks that served in WWII in Europe, only the Super Pershing was camoflaged that I've seen pictures of. Sgt. Early's Pershing and crew are famous for their destruction of a Panther in Cologne. This tank is identifiable by its serial number painted on the glacis plate and the 20mm hole on the driver's front fender. During the days leading up to and the day of the engagement with the Panther the .50 cal is covered up by canvass tarp or something.

martin g

Ahhh, thanks that appears to answer my tracks question.

cheers

Harquebus

pattoncommander: are you telling me that some Pershings did indeed carry the Tiger decor?

Regardless, all I intended to do was recommend paint schemes based on the apparent similarity between the M-26 and M-46. With my own limited research into the "Tiger's Face" hull treatment, I saw examples of this only on the M-46 but wanted to corroborate the assertion that only the M-46 bore this kind of "war paint".

As an alternative to the ubiquitous olive drab, I say bend the rules of history and paint the tiger motif on the M-26 Pershing. Kind of anathema for me to say that as I'm a stickler for authenticity but I'm here to help.

Thanks for the briefing on the Korean War era tanks and "nose art" used. Good info on the use of whitewash too. That was very helpful.

-Harq

martin g

Its always hard to know what is original and what wasnt, but I have found a pic of an M26 with the Tiger Motif on it. ????????????

http://ipmslondon.tripod.com/armourr...cles/id14.html

You can read the info for yourselves.

I used this site as a reference for my pershing, which I have now re-painted out of its winter wash and into green of the 3rd Army April 1945. Just need to number and mark her, will show it soon.

below is the exact tank I am modelling

Harquebus

Hey martin g,

If I'm not mistaken, the picture you have is of a Korean War era M-26. I can say this because it has the telephone box on the hull rear (so infantrymen can talk to the tank crew) which was a Korean war addition and, probably less confirming, is the missing side skirts which during WWII were mostly left in place.

I've used the IPMS site as well but I wonder if the description of the tiger markings on the tank pictured is accurate: "The one shown above is an early vehicle, production number 221, in the rather garish markings of the 70th Tank Battalion during the Korean conflict."

I wonder if I'm accurate.

-Harquebus

martin g

Harq,

I must admit I was a little sceptical about the description, it says its an early version but it seems to have the chevron tracks thatI am told are on the later ones, so yes I agree.

That said, the pic I posted above came with a description too, that of the 3rd Army, maybe thats wrong too then??? I wanted to make the M26 WW2 1945, but as I have the dust skirts removed a pic of a real one is hard to find.

swathdiver

There were Pershings in the ETO with the chevron tracks (T80E1). Since this track replaced the single pin T81, it's not hard to imagine that tanks so equipped were re-fitted with the T80E1 or T84E1 rubber chevron tracks.

Well, that one tank with the worn rubber chevron tracks in ETO appears to be after the war because of the telephone box on the rear. I'll have to look at my books again. You could always buy a set of T81 tracks from Tankzone.

pattoncommander

Harq, Nice to hear/read from someone who has some idea about armor. I work at the SC Military Museum in Columbia, SC and my main job is models and dioramas, plus research on equipment used by the SCNG to be absolutely historically accurate. I am VERY picky on authenticity. The tracks on the HL Pershing are definately not original issue but for a RC toy, I must admit, that the detailing is very good in most respects. Making the original single pin tracks could be touchy on a running RC model. Lots of little things have to be done....fender braces are non existant and periscope guards have to be added. I make my own periscope heads by using scrap plastic mirror pieces. Simple job of Dremmel'ing a piece 45 degrees, removing the piece on the tank and cementing in place. Adds a lot and to put a piece in the telescope hole is good too. (eliminate the dumb red light.) The Chinese by en large copy artifacts that are sitting on display, and it's very sad that many places do some Mickey Mouse on the tanks before they set them out, and they really don't know any better. The HL Tiger has the mantlet backwards with the gunner's dual telescope holes and the MG port backwards. I have a new gun tube to replace it but haven't gotten to it yet. just finished with my M-45 and doing some last minute touchups. I have contacted 7ID to see if they have any documentation of photos of the M-45's we had there to put the correct ID stenciling on it. Been a few years since I was there exchanging Christmas gifts with the Chinese.( I was sending them 90mm and cal 50, and we were receiving 85mm, 122 mm etc etc.) so I can't recall the numbering on the M-45's which we only occasionally saw. . For the time being, I have 45 on the turret. Corresponds with our 4th platoon. I have visited Bovington....fantastic place....and the 46 there was still under reconstruction, as was the Tiger I. The Pershing was still sitting outside but that was back in 91. Wasn't too overly happy with the tiger paint job, but then, there were no guidelines and every crew did what they could...usually someone like me, with an artistic hand, would be detailed to help get them done. In my next unit, I was detailed to paint pictures on every tank turret until the CG and the chaplain's wife saw a couple they didn't like and we went back to OD.


How does one get a photo onto this web site? I'm totally new here and trying to figure things out.

Bill

pattoncommander

Pershing paint schemes

martin g

I just checked out the T81 tracks...wow litle expensive! tankzone has some wonderfull accessories to be fair, but so pricey. too much for the average guy i think.

http://www.tankzone.co.uk/cart/tz_m26.htm

pattoncommander...

click 'post reply' then at eh bottom of the box is a linkthat says 'upload files' click that, you get a browse box, click browse, then find the pic you want and double click it. Use a seperate browse for each pic. Hope it helped

swathdiver

For what time period?

I've got a picture in one of my books that shows brand new Pershings being unloaded in Okinawa in July '45 with the T80E1 tracks. One could assume that Heng Long modeled the tank for the Korean theater because of the telephone.

In your research on the Pershings, do you have any photos of Marine Corps M26A1 that belonged to the 1st Tank Battalion?