Hi Wack,

That's so lame and if all they had at Normandy in 1944 were 500 Stuart Tanks, that would be the US Army's heaviest tank "present", but not a "heavy tank".

Do you have a clear point other than to blur facts and try and rewrite WWII history. The US Army, as stated by the US Army, did not field a heavy main battle tank in WWII. The Pershing was re-classified as a medium tank, because it did not make the grade as a heavy tank, for anyones army.

Enjoy the debate, John

Well, no one said the Tamiya system is perfect. It's an attempt to field some more heavy tanks on the Allied side other than the Pershing.

I'll rely on the many IR battles under my belt, the many years spent studying armor and the time building R/C tanks to speak for itself.

Debate or argue I'll not participate in that.

So, you agree then, the Sherman is a US Army designated WWII medium tank, even when it got fat & over-weight?

Some of the best humor I have witnessed, at one past TamiyaCon SCAT Demo Battle, was when 5 adult driven Sherman's went after one middle school aged drivers Tiger I. Up to that point the young teenager had picked off virtually every other allied tank on the field.

Later, with a Sherman, the kid lead the destruction of the Axis forces, at least once, with marksmanship and tactics.

The game can be anything a club wants and perhaps it isn't really about the Tamiya system.

I would enjoy fighting a nine hit, quick, fast Sherman. Probably won' happen.

But if you want to fight a heavy Allied WWII tank, start building and fighting Allied Russian armor, that seems the best, most fair and historically correct solution.

Just my 2 cents.

NO, [sm=lol.gif] I did not say that. [:@] Now you are bluring the words. [:@] Only the M4A3E2 Jumbo and the M4A3E8 Thunderbolt would be the heavies.

Mind boggling subjective reasoning at best. No wonder there has been some dustups over "rules"

My subjective reasoning indicates the only thing that makes a real difference in IR battling is the speed of the tank and the skill of the driver. Throw all the historical prototypical data out of it.

The speed of the tank indicates what class it is for IR battling. What it looks like is really irrelevent in IR combat. Many of you sticklers for details are already over- looking the fact that one 88 could take out three Shermans with one shot!!!!!

With everything else being equal in these plastic and tin models of tanks the only thing measurable that makes a difference in IR combat is speed. That is the cold hard fact, and the rest is subjective opinions based on historically accuracy that really mean little in the real life physics of Model IR Combat.

Use a speed table for WWII tanks. IF it fast it is light. If a guy spends the time and money to gear down his tank and make it prototypical reward him with more armour hits. If a guy shows up with a stock Heng long Tiger that can run circles around a Tamiya Sherman guess what? In My IR world that Tiger is a light weight and should have no real advantage in IR combat.

Seems like a real simple solution to a problem that is all too subjective otherwise.

Oh ya I have zero experience in IR battling, and have nothing invested in preconceived ideas.

That's my opinion so there!!!!

In my humble opinion the JUMBO could be used as a heavy, the uparmored Sherman AKA Thunderbolt VII, would still be medium because it wasn't completely uparmored as the JUMBO hull and turret was. My 1st Sherman has the same armor PKG as T-Bolt but I run it as a medium.

IF I build a JUMBO, I plan to run it as a Heavy at DAK. Rank has its priveleges.

Yeah, the M4A3E8 Thunderbolt VII is a stretch, but it's just an attempt to field some heavy Shermans for the Allies.

Every 'group' must make their choice.

very funny. It is interesting to see three pages of opinions on whether a up armoured Sherman should be upclassed to a heavy. Adopt my rules and the answer is known in 25 feet.

Opinionated subjective rules will ALWAYS cause a rift, because subjective opinions will always be challenged and need defending. Still the rules are what they are, and as long as everyone knows going in what they are, anything can work.

Yup, but there's no rift my friend. Happy tanking!

Cool, I agree completely. Fast Easy 8 Shermans taking 9 hits sounds like fun.

All I mean is theres plenty of "medium" regular Shermans out there, and it would be fun to have more than the Pershing as THE heavy Allied tank. I'm not talking Easy-8 (33.7t)-- I'm talkin M4A3E2 "Jumbo" - the heaviest armored variety (41.9t).

If someone was to ask "Is the Panther considered a heavy tank?" the answer would be "of course!" -- why then is it such a stretch for the Jumbo to be considered "heavy" in IR terms when its only 3 tons lighter? ( and thicker front armor)

Just out of curiosity, how fast was the real Jumbo sherman? Second question, will teh jumbo be at scaled speed to the real one?

Then that is all that really matters.

No ones talking about making Easy-8's heavy (E8), we're talking the much heavier Jumbo (E2) @ 42 tonnes

I think the weight/armor define how it should be classified, also taking into account scale gearing. Look below, I've prepped a list, it can clearly be seen the weight plays a part in where its classed. Look where the Jumbo fits in the overall scheme of things

15t M5 Stuart
18t M24 Chaffee

22t Panzer III
25t Panzer IV
26t T34/76
28t Cromwell MK VIII
30t Sherman
32t T34/85

41t Churchill Mk VIII
42t Sherman Jumbo
42t Pershing
43t KV1
45t Panther
46t JS2
57t Tiger
68t King Tiger



I would put it like this (taking other scale factors into account):
Light = sub-20t
Medium = 20-39.9t
Heavy = 40t +

Jumbo's max speed was 22mph or 35km/h. Regular sherman was 25mph or 40km/h (not much in todays terms)

Charts should have dates/eras and cross references on them to illiminate confusion. Only WW II tank we had that could catch an Abrams was the M-18 Hellcat (albeit, not a tank) but the M-5 Stuarts could click along at 45 on short spurts.

As I wrote, not meaning to argue the weight classification as Dana did explain a bit to me and some I can see why, but it's still confusing running a tank that has a real classification and another for IR battle. It was a hassle enough when they reclassified the Pershing from Heavy Tank to medium Gun Tank. There was just something "special' about being in a "heavy Tank" battalion. and there was a definate loss of prestige then.

Ethan,

You have my vote. I plan to do a Jumbo soon also. It will be nice to see a Sherman or two fill the allied heavy ranks. Maybe it will cut down on the high M-26 count, which I have never liked that much. On a side note - if evryone starts building Jumbos thats not the answer either.

I also agree with pcomm1, tactics and skill contribute to victory much more than IR settings in IR battles.

PS I find Its a lot more fun kicking heavy but with meduims

Actually there were more Allied tank destroyers attacking German armor than medium tanks were. So, more Allied light tanks are needed.

My 2 cents.

Enjoyed reading this interesting thread, all the facts, points of view and Patton Commanders inside working knowledge on the Pershing.

Due to the RC fun factor; I sold my Tamiya Pershing over a year ago (agree with SCAT Patton, not my favorite US tank and rc play wise, tough to maintain); and I have a T-23 Turret Sherman in progress: so, 9 hit Jumbos work for me.

That is a yes vote with a recommended speed & quickness restriction placed on the Jumbo.

Why:

The Jumbo was not designed as a purpose built tank fighter, but a spearhead breakout weapon that was supposed to lead the Normandy attacks around St Lo in July 1944. It missed the fight by a month.

A Panther probably could not kill a Jumbo in a head on attack by hitting the Jumbo's glacis plate or turret mantlet (at least not with the first or second hit), but non the less the Jumbo was designed to attack reinforced fortifications and not attack Panthers.

Taking front hits is not the whole story in regards to defining a heavy main battle tank and the Jumbo I believe had no true cross country capability (even with improved tracks), was slow and grossly over weight. The heavy weight Jumbo either wore out quickly and or collapsed their suspensions. Plus there were less than 250 produced, if my memory serves me at all. Bad tank design, all in all.

But I suspect the speed restricted RC Jumbo can be as effective as a lumbering King Tiger in an RC fight, it will be fun to find out.

So with some quickness and speed restrictions (like Tigers), 9 hit RC Jumbos work for me.

And yes Sherman Easy 8s with 76mm guns are still mediums, in my opinion.

Good forum fun, John

And just what is your rank, desert litter box commander?

Couldn't resist.