Would anyone know what Panther this was or what unit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqH_W...eature=related

Thanks

Don

I'm pretty sure it's an A.

http://www.anicursor.com/colpicwar.html

http://mundosgm.com/smf/index.php?to...35811#msg35811

- Jeff

Looks like a Panther A, and most likely from the Pz. Rgt. 33, 9th Panzer Division.

I agree I also think its a A, heres a pic of the same tank just moved to a different location, the Duel between the Panther and M-26 in Koln (Cologne) is pretty famus, Some additional info on the event http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/feat...ates.index.htm

Jonathan

Rats! I was hoping it was a G.

Don

We'll let you call it whatever you want Don.


- Jeff

It did well for an A, most of them were annihilated in Normandy or the Eastern front [X(]

I think there is a post in the war room on this topic

Pretty sure it's a late A. "A" hull with the sponson extensions on the rear right and left, ball mount MG with no letter box openings on the glacis plate, later turret cupola. G had a different hull, looked similar but the side angles were different to facilitate the construction of the Jagdpanther on the same lower hull, and the sponson extensions at the rear side hull were gone.
If you see the entire vid of the famous fight, the Panther seems to have been caught looking the wrong way. Most, if not all, the crew survived, as the tank commander can be seen in the end of the vid running back to help two crew members who got out just before the ammo cooked off. Watching the vid closely, it looks like at least 4 crew got out.

It is an A. The AFTERMATH pic clearly shows the drivers visor (hatch) in the front glacious plate and the ball MG mount.

I read somewhere that none of the Panzer crews survived. Those who were able to escape that inferno were soon cut down by small arms outside the tank. According to Smoyers, it appeared that the Panther was waiting for the Pershing to stop before firing, but Smoyers fired on the move and hit the Panther first. Which looks correct, since the Panther's gun was aimed at the direction of the Pershing as well.

Why would a Panther wait for an opposing tank to stop? I wouldn't, and never did.

Having seen the entire vid, from the Sherms brewing up to the final hit from the Pershing, and watching the commander and probably loader bail out of the turret, then the driver bails, then someone else, hard to tell from where because of the smoke, they all took off on the side away from the Pershing. The commander returned to help the driver, who bailed, obviously wounded, and rolled off his side of the Panther, away from the Pershing. From what I remember of the vid, about a year ago, it seemed that the Panther was almost at right angles to the Pershing. However, I may well be wrong on the angle. Trust me, in combat you can not look 360 degrees 24/7, and a tank when buttoned down is 90% or more blind.

It's kind of like the famous ramming incident in Normandy, where a Sherman collided with a King. Later investigation showed that the Sherm did neglegible damage to the King. What killed the King was either an 8.8 or 7.5cm (don't remember) fired from the German positions to the right side of him at the Sherman, that hit the King in the engine compartment. Missed the Sherm by a meter, but that meter was filled with Tiger. Happens. The English version that I read, quite obviously mostly propaganda written shortly after the incident, stated that at the end of the engagement, "we collected the Jerries and went back to our lines". Hmmmm. That Tiger crew was clearly listed in Tigers in Combat 1 or 2 as receiving another tank the next day, if my aging memory serves.

What this brings out is one sides version of an event can and often is diametrically opposed to what the other side "saw" and reported in their respective AAR's.

Now, was the Pershing a good tank? Oh heck yeah. We should have had it in early '44 (thanks to the Powers That Be, we didn't). Was it omnipotent? Definately not. The one time a Pershing tangled with a Tiger, an E model, the Pershing came out way the worse for wear. The fact that the victorious Tiger then got tangled up in debris and was abandoned after has zero to do with the actual combat. Was the Tiger omnipotent? Same answer. T 34 76's did knock out the odd Tiger from time to time, as did Shermans. No man and no machine is king of the battlefield. Some are better than others, but all can be defeated, maybe not every day, but all you need to do is to defeat them on one day, your day.

However, the fear factor of the Tigers was very very real. witness even today a lot of "historical" documentaries and many on line WW2 unit histories ID most any German tank as a "Tiger". Best one I saw was the History Channel's hilarious show on "how to kill a Tiger". Get real. My prime MOS is tank hunter. Not defense, but agressively hunt them. Ergo I've read and studied a lot about tanks, from the first in WW1 to the most modern, not only the tanks themselves, but the training and psychology of the kulture the crews come from, that so I and my unit could predict to a point what they would do in a given situation. Tanks don't normally work alone. I am quite sure that sending 5 Shermans out to get one Tiger was suicide, as if there was one lurking in the bush, you can bet there was another one or 2 floating around, and that does not take in to account the odd infantry or PG unit hovering in the general AO, who would be definately NOT in a good mood with the Sherms disturbing their afternoon siesta, and would in all probability do their utmost to provide flow thru ventilation in said Sherms shoud the opportunity arise.

My father, who jumped on D Day and fought thru Normandy, Monties disaster called Market Garden, and Bastogne, told me on one of the two occasions we really talked, that twice he saw 8 or 10 Shermas sent out to "get that Tiger". The first time none returned. The second time one shot up wreck hobbled back in, the crew needing a good stiff drink. Third bunch to be sent out, the CO refused, although under threat of Courts Martial. Nothing ever came of it, according to the Old Man. This decorated soldier, E8 101 Airborne, Silver, two Bronzes, and the Purple, the first, and only, time he heard one of my Tamiya Tigers start with the enertia starter, turned white as a ghost and very quietly asked me to turn it off. I did. I was shocked that this fearless man, who more than once put the fear of God in me when growing up (and deservedly so) was still, after 60 years, afraid of a Tiger. That says it all.

If the Panther was waiting for the Pershing to stop, maybe its because of the distance between the tank (100-150 meters), the Panther knew it too was vulnerable, and was waiting for opportune time to fire at the Pershing, not knowing that the Pershing can fire on the move fairly accurately.

Plus at that short range, it's more difficult to lead a moving target, compared leading a target at say, 500 meters or farther. And I mainly based my guesstimate where the Pershing was in relation to the Panther by the 90mm rounds clearly seen streaking into the Panther. It appears that the Panther and Pershing was looking "eye to eye", so to speak.

And yep, the Pershing and Panther were fairly equal, especially at those circumstances. I guess it just boiled down to luck, and who has the fastest reaction time.

Yes, luck has always had a great deal to do with combat survival. Skill also counts loads, but even the best can be looking the wrong way and end up on the short end of the stick. At those ranges the 7.5cm on the Panther would have gone thru the Pershing like a hot knife thru butter, as did the Pershing's rounds on the Panther. Usually in tank combat he who shoots first wins, ergo my thoughts that in all probablity the Panther CO was looking in the wrong direction. However, I don't know the street layout there, let alone the amount of debris piled around, so it's also very possible that the Pershing appeared out of nowhere and fired first.

Since in all probability both crews are no longer with us, we will never know for sure. One can make any supposition one wants...however, we were not there.