Oberst

This kid showed up at my Club, he was about 16 or so, he showed up with a electric Fokker DR1. It was his first plane and we all told him that he needed to get on our Club trainer.

He knew better than us, so I just sat down in my JR chair and watched the carnage. Then about a week later he showed up with a Parkzone Corsair, we again told him it would be smart to go on the trainer. He said that he flew this plane on the sim and it was easy to fly.
So we again let him go and we brought out the glue right after his first flight.

To this day his mother keeps buying him warbirds because he see's mine and wants to be at the same level. I told him I started with 2 trainers, then I bought the PTS Mustang, and even then I needed help with my first flight with that because it was fast and not very forgiving. Of coarse I wanted to be cool and took off all the training devices off of it. It almost cost me!

I've been flying warbirds for 3 years now and still I'm not a expert. It took me close to 6 years to handle a not very forgiving warbird. I'm now ready to fly my Fokker DR1. I'm not the one who says I'm ready, the guys I fly with at my Club told me I should be OK.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I cracked up a few planes while progressing my skills. It would have cost me double if I didn't listen to the Ol' timers in my Club. We've seen people quit because they didn't listen and they got frustrated when they crashed their expensive warbird.


Pete

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

interesting. mabey he's one of the few you can't fly.. or struggles with it everytime they go out to the field.
get realflight 5(+) and try the P-51 Big Beautiful Doll. that'll be about as close to the real thing as one get
get.

anyways wanna practice? get a great plane combat warbirds and try to take off, fly, & land them as
scalelike as possible. if you can master that.. everything else is a cakewalk lol.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

You write like a troll. Stop posting unless you information is real. Simulators are just that, they simulate something. Simulators used by the military and civilan companies in the realm of flying are quite different than what can be purchased in the hobby market. I have seen both positive and negative results that model simulators can create. Did you learn to drive using a simulator, I think not. Simulators in the real world are used to practise emergency proceedures and the basics of takeoff and landing. Too many people believe that the R/C simulator is the way to success. This is not true and the only way is through repittion and practise.

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

don't like it, I'm sure theres an ignore userfunction somewhere.

brush up on the definition of a troll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Well said. That`s what I mean exactly. You know how many people come to the field with scale planes thinking it would be as easy as flying the sim and crash, It happens all the time, even with trainers. Its just not the same even with the latest sims they have. I flew on the new sims at shows and hobby shops. It still feels fake. The only thing I find is due to much faster computers the controls are very responsive. That`s it.

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

so you think I'm a troll too?

here it is for you too. learn it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

funny on how becouse a sim works for one guy and not the other,
it results in name calling... nah-ice LOL.

lopflyers

My Feedback: (12)

So make up your mind. Are clubs a waste of time? So why he should find a club?
I think Clubs are awesome, they have flight instructors and trainers and they are absolutely the way to go.
Self train or even train by simulators are a good way for a quick exit to the hobby.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Some clubs can be a waste of time if the only planes the members fly are 3D or WW1. Here in NJ I went to 2 clubs this past summer. Both the members from what I saw on a few visits flew mostly 3D planes. Some had 2 and 3 at the field. No good if you are into WW2 birds. One field got close down by DEP, and I was there the last Sunday before it closed and I ask the club president if anyone fly WW2 planes. He said in the 4 years the club was there, there was one guy that came one time with one. He could not even remember what plane it was. So I could see how some clubs would be a a waste. When you have a bunch of guys hovering 1/3 $2,3,4,5 thousand airplanes in the flight path you don`t want to fly there. Its a buzz kill to be the only guy at a field with a particular airplane and you can`t fly it because the flight path is full of hovering planes, or old guys with very slow WW1 planes complaining that your plane is too loud or you are too low.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I stand by my first post. Most clubs are a waste of time. I'm happy that you like your club, I never experienced this. I taught myself to fly both fixed and rotary wing models and then went on and professioanall flew aerial targets for the military. I'm just your average r/c pilot but I have been in this hobby for 20 years. I have associated myself with higly skilled and natural pilots and not one has told me that the simulator has done anything to improve there talents.

Experten109/40

My Feedback: (-1)

well there yah go. already experianced pilots didn't learn a thing from a sim. I'm shocked. whereas a guy with ZERO experiance can learn something.
go figure.

carlbecker

My Feedback: (3)

I have belonged to five different clubs in the past 15 years. Each club had many positives besides a field. It is a shame you have had such bad luck. Last month I managed to move my fingers through the prop arc. Cut two and was glad I was at the field with other folks. A member had first aid and patched me up. I don't fly alone. I also have been helped and given parts or glue as well as helped others.

RealFly

 From a relatively new guy who likes scale planes and flew from small electrics up to a 50cc (TF) P-47. I have many warbirds and learned some lessons the hard way. To save you some crashes and speed your learning curve here are a few tips: 1. Rudder is your friend. Be ready on right rudder - always. 2. Learn to use it on a warbird - both in take-off, landing and flight 3. Speed is good, never get too slow until you know where the limits are with a plane - especially a warbird 4. Why rudder in flight(?), well if you swing everything around with your ailerons your bank angle is greater increasing you stall speed. In other words for a 45-55 degree bank on a turn you need more airspeed to prevent a stall than you do at a 15-30 degree bank - remember that fact on landing approaches and try to keep it flat with your coordinated rudder on your crosswind to final. 5. Gradually apply your throttle on go-arounds. No harm in going around if the approach doesn't look good. Again too much speed is better than too little and you can go around if it proves too much speed for landing. If you are too slow, you next approach will be one with a garbage bag in hand to the plane to pick up the pieces. 6. Oh, ground handling. Hopefully you know to keep some up elevator on the ground to keep the tail planted. Gradually release it as you tail picks up. Remember get some groundspeed before taking off, don't horse it up in the air - or see the last sentence of point 5 above. And don't let guys talk you into forcing (pin the throttle and pull) a plane up because you nose over often. Spend the time to learn and do it right, even if you get some cross looks while working on it. Remember you don't have a lot of throw and low loading, like on an aerobat, to save you should things get out of hand. Your parameters to work with are finer. I learned the lessons the hard way, even though I read stuff you still have to have a flight plan in mind each flight to work on the above - until it becomes second nature.

Joespeeder

Hi e9coupeguy,

Lots of good ideas here. With a plane of that size I would find a good club in your area, join the AMA, and bring your skills back to where they once were on some sort of trainer. Everyone here has their favorite trainer and I am no different. Just be sure to get something that is "trainer" easy to fly and you'll enjoy. If you hate looking at the thing you're not likely to want to fly it. Having a "go to" plane to relax with will allow to enjoy the P-51 more since you won't be under so much pressure knowing you HAVE to fly a plane that stretches your ability each time you fly. You want something to practice with that you can relax and fly.

I can only tell you about our club but I know there are many very good ones out there, each with unique interests depending on the style of flying/aircraft they enjoy. That's what makes this hobby great. I chose my club since I knew they have a unofficial warbird night every Tuesday evening in the summer. No unusual structure other than the planes that show up are warbirds of some type. If a group of WWI guys all group up to fly at once then off they go. Since everyone just like seeing a group flight you'll find the other flyers just enjoying the spectacle after about 10-15minutes things open up into everyone flying general warbirds of all types. No rules or organization it just kinda happens.... This is true for each style of aircraft. Very Fun.

Our club also has a trainer night which I think is common to a lot of clubs. We shut down sport flying at 6pm every Thursday and it's trainers only till dusk. Only instructors and and students are allowed to fly. Students can fly for a little while after they solo on thurdays but generally they are so excited to fly during normal time they come back to Thursdays to help or get some additional structured help.

Everyone seems to love the ESM P-51 and it looks to be a great plane. However, any plane of it's size and speed can hurt someone. Be sure to join the AMA for the protection and a club that fits your interest that can help you.

Most of all don't be afraid to ask for help. There's a whole community of flyers just itching to lend a hand. Have fun and keep us updated on your progress.

Joe

EGRUNE

My Feedback: (10)

Hobbico Superstar!!!

wulf190

My Feedback: (19)

Richard,

I was in a similar position to you at one point. I learned to fly RC when I was 14 and flew as often as I could up until I went away to college. I got to be a pretty good flyer flying an old Andrews Sportmaster low wing plane which flew fantastic. When I was about 32, I got back into the hobby and had always wanted to build a big warbird. I chose a Pica FW190D9 as the kit to build, and got a Sig King Kobra to get myself some stick time before flying the 190. I had never flown a taildragger before flying the 190, but as it handled really well on takeoff, it really didn't present much difference to me really on taking off I thought. I remember the buddy at the field I got to spot me for the first flight with the King Kobra..."you took 15 years off and you built THAT to fly on your first flight?!?" I laughed, and said "sure". Turns out he said I was a better flyer than he was (but man was I nervous). Definitely not something the brain forgets how to do. But the Kobra was a great flyer, and it was the right call to get myself acclimated again.

Then after about a dozen flights or so, it was time to fly the 190. Big nerves. I found that it was sort of like re-learning how to fly again, as I now realized how often I got away with just letting the plane fly itself around the sky. This demanded attention to airspeed at all times. I found myself having to use rudder coordinated turns all the time, and keeping a speed of approach on landing that was a LOT higher than I used to set up with. Someone mentioned above that they thought that flying sport planes doesn't really help so much to fly warplanes....I tend to agree with that in part. Really I find the only way to getting better at flying heavier warplanes is to continue to fly heavier warplanes and practice, practice, practice. Certainly a skill set of the basics on landing approaches and flying skills is needed, but more at this point probably for you is dealing with the nerves from realizing that one becomes a neophyte again on the first warbird flight. It does get easier, but I still get far more nervous than is healthy.[]

lopflyers

My Feedback: (12)

The reason I told you to get in a club is because I bought a Mustang P51D Miss America as my second plane after the trainer.
The old fellows at my club laughed at me, boy I am glad there were a couple of them at the field the day I took off the first time.
The landings on warbirds are so much different than the trainers. I was yelling help after the third failed approach.
Luckily one of them took my transmitter and landed my jewel safely.
I didnt fly it again until I was doing it automatically on the GS5 simulator.
Needless to say the plane is still in one piece because I was flying at a Club.

chistech

I self taught myself to fly over 30 years ago with many crashes of a Sig Kadet II, nice flying plane. The closest club was over 30 miles away so with the help of a few other RC pilots I later met in the area, we started a club and I became it's first president. I moved from the high wing trainers to Bi-planes which fly completely different than a trainer and again a few crashes until success. I then built a Royal corsair and flew that with many a successful flight and ended up selling it for a large sum of money. I then purchased an already built TF P47 and had a few flights on it then crashed it on a bad takeoff which was my mistake. I found bi-planes and warbirds to fly a lot alike, DIRTY! I also did some high wing float flying at this time. I can tell you I also saw many reasons to be in a club especially in the days of building your own airframes. As time went on and my kids started to grow I got out of RC and focused my time on my kids. 10 years into the first marriage, a divorce, a few jobs later, then 8 more years, a new marriage, there was still no time. Finally, three to four years ago, I decided to get back into the club I started as one of my old friends and original members convinced me to. It had been over 20 years since my last flight. Even though I had flown heavy scale warbirds in the past, I went out and bought myself a H9 Alpha high wing trainer with a buddy box setup. I started flying with my old friend and after 3-5 times on the buddy box I was ready to fly solo again. I stayed with the trainer for at least the whole summer buying a J3 Cub and learned to fly another type of high wing plane. Most people will agree a Cub is no high wing trainer as they have their nasty traits that you won't find on a true HW trainer (severe stall at low speed with a drop of the wing comes to mind). So more experience gathered there. I then purchased a cheap Chinese 60 size P51 with a OS 91 Fs and retracts. I first had my friend take it up and trim it out then he would hand me the transmitter as a buddy box was no longer needed. I was wise enough to hand him the transmitter if I got in trouble and always flew "three mistakes high". I then learned with time to solo on the P51 and then bought a Kyosho Spitfire. I assembled it with an OS 48. This proved to be a very influential plane for me because the plane was light, not over powered, and flew like a sport plane. (If you find a aircraft that you like and fly well fly the heck out of it in all conditions before moving on). I have been flying warbirds now for the last 2-3 years with only an occasional problem because we tend to push the envelope and fly when most wouldn't. I can tell you that I assembled and test flew a ESM Stuka for a customer a year ago and had some trouble with it's flight and stalled it on landing. The main problem was the CG but I think some of the issue came from the lack of me to adjust to the difference in size of the aircraft to which I was accustomed to flying (ESM Stuka is much larger). I have since built and successfully flown a scale Kingfisher with floats with no issue in flying and it weighs 10.5lbs with just a 58" span so wing loading wasn't the problem.

As most have said here experience is the best teacher. A sim is great and will teach you much but the true take off and landings have to be experienced in real life. My brother could never fly RC and tried for many years. After he got a sim for Christmas and practiced over the winter he could fly better than I have ever been able to. But, he still will stall occasionally on take off and will over shoot his landings on smaller fields. He still needs more hands on practice, plain and simple! It will not hurt you to buy a trainer and start from the beginning again as you should be able to find a used one and when done, sell it again. There is always some one like you wanting to learn who's looking for a cheap trainer. A buddy box is perfect and I would say mandatory for your P51 unless you don't plan flying it for 2 years. That sim is going to build muscle memory for flight and even with the wind adjustments can't really duplicate take offs and landings to the real world. So get one but don't count on it to be your only learning aid.

On clubs I can't completely disagree with Flycatch for one reason. Clubs are made up of people and some people just aren't interested in helping. This doesn't mean that all clubs are bad nor does it mean that the ones with uninterested people aren't worth it. Go to a club, stand back, and watch for a few days for people who fly more than talk. Every club has fliers and talkers. Most talkers will give you advice that they don't even listen too or understand because they haven't mastered flying yet. Some of the "talkers" have been club members for years, still can't fly, and every club has them. When watching for a frequent flier, look for a pilot who flies the kind of aircraft you like and if he is a good pilot, go up and introduce yourself. You just might find he is willing to take you under his "experienced" wing. If he doesn't agree to help you he might send you in the right direction. Once you have found a good mentor I would recommend you stick with him and don't abandon him or try to learn with some one else at the same time. Everyone does things a little different and the fastest way to piss someone off is to ask the same question to multiple people. You might find if you do this then no one will help. If you have a "know all" attitude it will also get you the same result. Having started our club years ago, I've been known as a motivator and since I got back into our club it went from a bunch of talkers with a few fair weather fliers to mostly all fliers, no matter what the weather. I also became the club event coordinator and got them all motivated in another direction. We had our first club fun fly and fund raiser 3 years ago and now also hold an annual memorial float fly every year. So you see, a club is made up of people and that club is what the people make of it. Some new blood can easily motivate a so-so club into a great club with the same people. Maybe Flycatch should have tried to be a motivator and not just a "field user". Not picking on him just using it as an example. This is how I got back into RC with good results. Yes, I have crashed and thrown away a few but the successes out weigh the failures. Good luck.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

All good points , the mention of a Sig Kadet brought back memories of (91R, Romeo). A Sig Kadet I had bought at the local hobby shop one Saturday. The store owner made an offer I could`nt refuse, $20 for the kit. It has been sitting in the store for years. I was past the trainer stage flying pattern, also at the time had a Sig P51 and Flight craft Bonanza. Long story short, I built it into a tail dragger . One Sunday flying it doing touch and goes,( BTW do a lot of those you will get sharper on your landings very quickly, just don`t waste a day boring holes in the sky) when on a landing I was very slow and the wind caught me close to the ground and flip me into the ground. That barn door flat bottom wing boy I tell yuh caught me. I was going to trash it but for some reason I took it home and it sat for a few months. I got a brain wave and built it over only this time I put the wing at the bottom had reg numbers at the side 91R. Man let me tell you to date it is in the top 3 best flying planes I ever flew. It flew totally different and beautiful. Had many summer evenings my buddies and I took turns taking it up and buzzing the field. Had a Fox 45 with a moose can pipe. The sweetest sounding exhaust note you ever heard. Now if you get a trainer to get your skills back up when you get tired of the high wing, move it to the bottom. You will be surprised how different it will fly. You can even take out some of the dihedral not all. A semi-symmetrical wing will be even better. That`s one way to bring new life into a trainer. Give it a try.

Oh yeah the #1 plane is a 60 size Skyfarer next to a Sterling Fledgling with a Q500 wing...smoking[sm=shades_smile.gif]
Note to self " Build another 91R"

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

We are not using comparable sims! Nobody could afford those.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

The trap many fall into is they want to fly something sexy etc. that they have always fantasized about. The thing is, you have to learn how to fly! Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.

Your low wing plane looks good and it might work out. It will be a little fast and responsive, but it will be easier to land than a full blown trainer I believe. I have been an instructor with my club for 6 years.

About the Mustang, this is what I see all the time. Poor rudder management. Warbirds are usually a little (a lot) heavier, so the wing will stall at a slower speed. What happens is the plane starts veering quickly to the left as the throttle is advanced, running out of runway quickly because you are approaching the edge. Then, the pilot yanks up elevator to get airborne to avoid the rough on the edge of the runway. The resulting slow airspeed causes a tip stall and crash. I have seen this so many times, I cannot count. So Rudder experience with a tail dragger is mandatory for warbird flying. Practice this as much as possible. The problem is, your low wing sport plane with have very mild ground handling characteristics.

Then there is the landing!

Oberst

I fly WWI,WWII and owned a Extra 260. Anything that's scale has its own flight characteristics. WWI birds have a lot of lift and drag at the same time. On the takeoff the planes are more torque sensitive, and the landings we fight the "Nose Over Ground Loop Effect." The plane is flown more by reaction than thought- because if something goes wrong we don't have the luxury to think. They don't call WWI birds flying kites for nothing. Crosswind landings is not encouraged.

On the turns they are very rudder happy and need the rudder for a smooth turn.

WWII aircraft I have flown and owned liked speed, landings I've always had to come in a little hot. If I was a little slow on the turns or landings I risked the famous "Tip Stall." Bottom wing and top wing aircraft don't handle the same. On the landings the bottom wing aircraft have that cushion of air it rides just as I flare the plane just before my wheels touch the ground. Top wing planes don't have that same effect. Rudder on turns is not needed, but does help with the smooth turn. The plane is flown more by reaction than thought- because if something goes wrong we don't have the luxury to think like the WWI planes. Crosswind landings are tricky, but easier than doing it with a WWI bird.


3-D flying planes can be fast, they have a very slow stall rate and the plane is flown more by reaction than thought. The ones I've flown react more quickly to the controls. (Even when the expo is on high settings) 3-D pilots use both high and low rate when flying, when I flew mine I kept it on high rate. Crosswind landings are not as tricky like the Warbirds, and 3-D is more forgiving over all. Still if something goes wrong we don't have the luxury to think, but 3-D has the power to get out of trouble, 3-D planes were designed for stunt flying and it takes a lot of skill to execute some of those stunts.


Trainers are can be flown slow or fast, they are very forgiving and gives us time to react if we get into trouble. It can handle the wind much better and crosswind landings are much easier.


My last 2 planes I owned. I crashed the 2 year old Extra 260 doing a low knife edge that went bad last year. (RIP) The Fokker is going on 3 years old as I write this and I've done more work on it since this picture was taken.



My first trainers, Goldberg Eagle (kit) and a Custom ESC Hobby Lobby Wing Dragon.



I don't have a picture of my PTS Mustang, but I do have one of my Cub.



The plane I'm working on now is in the ARF Forum under the title: " My Discontinued .60 Great Planes Fokker DR1 Rebuild and Modification."

It is my experience that simulators are fine in teaching direction and coordination. It can NOT be compared to the real thing, but the sim developers are trying to make it more realistic as time develops.


Pete

e9coupeguy

e9coupeguy

e9coupeguy

thanks again for all of the responses. picked up a copy of RealFlight G5.5 on tuesday and have been flying non stop. I have to say i'm pretty impressed with the quality of the sim. Before i read the posts re the characteristics of the low wing war birds i was experiencing some of them. The high speed stalls in turns necessitating rudder input, the low speed stalls on approach, the need for rudder on take-off... the assist the flaps provide on approach... seems as though some of these characteristics have been fairly well captured and conveyed in the sim. I'm fully aware that the sim is nothing like th ereal thing, but i do take some comfort in knowing that what i'm seeing is a reasonably accurate representation of the actual flight characteristics of the plane.

<o></o>

I was also pleased with how quickly the controls came back to me. Again, i know its not the real thing, but take-off, general flight /simple maneuvers, and even landing was reasonably comfortable. I dumped quite a few on approach and got my wires crossed up a bit a several times but for the most part, i think i'm doing pretty well... Trying to get the landings as realistic as possible, keeping the wings flat, flaps extended, controlling elevation with throttle input, slight rudder input, etc. Its starting to feel pretty good. I plan on putting a ton of time into this thing until i can do it blindfolded...standing on my head while reciting the declaration of independence. -When i can get that down, i;ll start flying for real, mastering the trainer before i move onto the P51. No rush. My other hobby is restoring old BMW's so patience and attention to detail is nothing new to me.<o></o>

<o></o>

By the way, i picked up the plane today (350 mile trip in each direction - crazy? maybe). I couldnt bear the thought of paying $300 to have it shipped or worse yet, put it in the hands of Greyhound. So i drove the 4runner up, loaded her up and came home. 13 hours altogether. And it all went off without a hitch... except for a slight crack that occured when i was passing over a rough stretch of road. i had the fuse and wings supported on styrofoam cutouts and somehow it still managed to bounce and slip just enough such that it stressed the bottom of the fuse just behind the cutouts for the exhaust - i suspect the spot was already weak. I've enclosed a pic (or i'm trying to anyway) showing the damage. Any tips on how best to repair it? It doesnt pass all the way through but i think i'd prefer to do a little bit of reinforcement on the inside to make sure it stays that way. Even though its superficial damage and not in plain sight, it still pisses me off, so if possible, i'd like to try to make it go away as much as possible. Just dont know what techniques work best. My guess is that on the inside i can just lay in a couple of sheets of glass and call it a day. Thoughts?<o></o>

<o></o>

I'll take pics of both planes when i get finished setting everything up. I'd still like to know if anyone can ID the trainer. The shop owner did offer a guess but at the moment, i cant remember what he said...<o></o>

<o></o>

More to come... but if i dont get back on before saturday, Merry Christmas to everyone!

Cant seem to get pics to post tonight so here's the link to the picture:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonezee/5287281840/

<o></o>

Oberst

Your not crazy. I drove 400 miles round trip to pick up my Fokker DR1 from a ad I saw on RCU. I dumped another $100 on my wife so she would enjoy the trip.

Join a sanctioned AMA Club and they will help you incase you get into trouble. If you are determined to fly your warbird dispite what the majority is stating, I suggest you "Tether up" with a qualified Instructor. Your plane will last longer.

The ONLY reasons why I drove 400 miles for my plane is because I had 8 years experience flying all types of birds and the Fokker is a collectors item. If I had 3 years experience, I would have still driven down to NYC, but I'd make sure my Instructor helped me with it, or waited until someone in my Club said I was ready.

I have the Aerofly Pro Deluxe and G4.5 Simulators and I've been using them in my off seasons. They aren't even close to the real thing, but they do help. Also it's different because if you crash on the sim it's no sweat off your brow. Crash a warbird after you've dumped $800 on up, plus the time you took getting it flight worthy and doing all the extra work- It really hurts.

I don't think you really understand what most are saying. One step at a time, don't rush it.

It's your choice.


Pete