w1nd6urfa

My Feedback: (4)

The "simple" wing loading we use (weight divided by wing area) is only useful when comparing similar models (i.e. warbird to warbird, 3D to 3D, but NOT warbird to sailplane) that are also the SAME or very similar in weight / scale. Therefore a 40" wingspan Extra with 25 wing loading will fly much WORSE than a 80" warbird with 30 loading.

A much better calculation is CUBIC wing loading which takes the wingspan squared into the formula thus giving an advantage to larger wingspan (scale) and high aspect planes (sailplanes).

See [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=604935]here[/link]

Nick

bluescoobydoo

well even though it was cold and i wanted to stay in front of the log fire i could not resist giving my 190 it's maiden, its fitted with a dle 30cc, hitec servos apart from the throttle which is a cheap metal geared digital from giant cod.
engine ran fine even though it was only the second time it has been started, i flew with the cowl removed for maximum cooling.
i needed both batterys up front to get the cg correct as per the manual which seems fine, movments are also as the manual suggests, with the engine running i advanced the throttle and it was off in about 15ft and then only needed a bit of trimming and what a great flyer it is, the 30cc is more than enough power and will give it verticle performance most of the flight was at 1/3rd power, retracts needed a bit of work to get working correctly but now go up and down as you would like them to. the landing was a non event it slows up well and a blip of throttle kept it running with wings level until touchdown it does like to bounce even with the sprung legs and make sure you threadlock the screws that are in the slot on the leg as i lost one and it nosed over as the wheel turned in but no damage done.
the flaps were tried the next flight and work well not that you need them when you have a 10-14mph head wind.
can't wait untill the weather warms up and i can get a full days flying in, anyway back to the log fire for now.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I'm glad you like this model. The BH model line is slowly evolving and will eventually outsell the ESM line. Can't wait untill they release a FW190D or ME109.

kahloq

Glad you have enthusiasm for this plane....but my god man, stop just throwing out blanket ridiculous comments you have no way to backup. No one knows how many planes ESM sells but them and their distributors across the world or BH for that matter. You have no clue how many people across the US and the world will or will nor buy any particular brand.

Jesus, its obvious you have an axe to grind against ESM with all the constant crap you say about the ESM line and thats your business. But no one else cares. They sell and continue to do so and have for many years. They arent going anywhere and their appearance is still better then the BH planes.

Speak positive about the BH and all and thats great, but dont you think it makes you look just a tad stupid always making snide remarks about ESM or comparing them in an bad light all the time when virutally no one else does? Sure...ESM planes arent perfect, but by far they are the best out there for a scale-ish looking warbird ARF.

BH has a place in the market too and they are not comparable to ESM. ESMs are fiberglass fuses and mostly scale lines and BH is balsa and not quite so scale. Both fly well though.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

Your right I do bash them and I should also include KMP or are they not one of the same. ESM/KMP had no competion and don't forget their origional pricing. Along comes another company that will and can compete once they drop the included retracts. HP has already discounted the origional price tag and others won't be using this as an excuse not to buy a BH over an ESM. You mention, they the ESM, have a fiberglass fuselage thats great untill it sits in the sun for awhile at high ground temperatures. I speak from experience when I said the fuselage begins to soften since it is constructed from polyester resin and not epoxy resin. You, living in Colorado don't experience this problem. The wing of an ESM airframe is built in a manner that screams pile driver and no two wing panels weight the same. Your right they do look true to scale if that what you crave for. I still have my ESM Hurricane and I'll fly it but that will be the last ESM model I'll purchase. ESM/KMP will not be the airframe of choice in the years to come and I stand by this comment.

kahloq

Your mostly baseless arguments are littered with errors. KMP is not the same as ESM. ESM is the plane manufacturer and KMP was a prior distributor from Canada that held the original distribution rights for North America. They rebadged the boxes to say KMP. THEY are the ones that set the prices as high as they were. $529 was the price of the FW-190 and most other 70-73" planes at that time. We all had a gripe about that then. ESM dropped them as the distributor because of the poor sales due to the high pricing KMP was gouging people here in the US. This was several years ago BEFORE Blackhorse ever made any warbird ARF's. Another of your points that is invalid.

Once KMP was dropped and the distribution rights moved to troybuiltmodels, thats when the prices came down to reasonable levels...ie $329 for the Fw-190, $299 for the ME-109E, etc. Troybuilt held the exclusive rights for about a year....well before BH ever offered any models here in the US.
Troybuilt handed off the rights to Arfpromodels which held it for a year or so and currently HolliesHobbys has it because they have the ability to bring in a good size number of containers at once.

Now...your comment about fiberglass fuses sitting in the sun is also bogus. We here in Colorado DO get 100+ degree days thank you. Might be worth while to do some homework before shooting off your mouth and looking foolish. We have one of the largest warbird events in the country just 15 min from where I live. Warbirds over the Rockies. Now before you go mouthing off again, its not as big as Warbirds over Delaware, but pretty dam close. This event is held during the hot months...Aug or Sept out here....and its a 3 day event. All of my ESM planes are usually at the event and sitting out on Display out in the sun. They DO NOT suffer warps or melt or any such crap you tried to claim.
Any balsa plane with covering will suffer severe covering shrinkage in the same amount of heat that the ESM fuses just sit there all happy and pretty.

The wings of any ESM plane Ive got and that includes the FW-190 are quite sturdy and well built with covering that does NOT shrink in high sun heat. Solartex. This is what most people use on 1/4 scale WWI planes and it does not wrinkle or shrink much once its fitted to the surface/wing/whatever.

I dare you to leave this BH Fw-190 out in the sun for 3 days at our event and see how much the covering has wrinkled, sagged, and in some places pulled away from the plane's structure. You and I both know its the same basic type of covering as used on many Graupner and Kyosho planes. Printed and will melt.

You can stand by your statement that ESM will not the airframe of choice in the future all you want, but it is 100% complete conjecture on your part with no basis in reality. While you may prefer BH, and there is nothing wrong with someone prefering BH at all, no one can claim BH will become the choice. That is pure opinion, not fact. Theya re two different classes. One scale(esm), one fun not so scale(BH). They can, often do, attract different buyers.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

Each to his own. You like ESM and I don't. This is like the Ford/Chevy debate. I end my discussion and thank you for the history lesson.

w1nd6urfa

My Feedback: (4)

I own both BH and ESM warbirds indeed they are very different in concept and construction, to me neither is good or bad its a question of personal style and preference.

In a nutshell:

- BH are very light (easier to handle) but lack in scale looks. I especially dislike the shiny printed vinyl covering.

- ESM are heavier - more challenging - but great looks, Solartex and fiberglass are perfect for a paintjob to get a unique model.

Its good to have a choice

kahloq

Agreed ^^ Choice is a good thing for sure.

Still wish Graupner would continue making warbirds, or at least made available here in the US. I have both the Fw-190D9 and the HE-111. Similar lack of scale looks as BH and same covering, but, no one else made either plane in arf form.
The graupner fw-190d9 is probably the easiest plane to fly I have in the 70" ish range. Probably even lighter then this BH Fw-190A, but in looks department, that printed covering just doesnt help matters along with completely unscale flaps.

I did though paint over the covering with latex paint from a hardware store.

Anyhow...the black horse plane wouldnt be a bad addition to someones hangar nor an esm for that matter.

Lets see some pics from those that have the BH plane.

sharam

My Feedback: (2)

I was told by HobbyPeople.net (distributors for BH) that Graupner is private labeling BH products.

paparozzi

Can we continue on the build reasons for this model? Please, for those of us happy with this model.

TimBle

well I'm still waiting for parts to arrive.

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I installed a Ty cockpit intended for the ESM FW190. The tub sides and floor will have to modified and the side consoules eliminated. The instrument panel will also need minor triming of the left and right side. The seat and backrest fit fine however the seat is not to scale for the airframe scale factor. Once installed and painted no one will know. I tried to install a 1/6 scale pilot but again the scale factor makes the pilot look out of place.I powered mine with a Saito 180FS and it flies true to scale. Not to fast not to slow. The plane loves to fly inverted which was a pleasant surprize.


PS: I used the parachute assembly that came with the pilot and guled it in place in the seat.

kahloq

Its possible they are now, but graupner has been making planes long before BH and hobbypeople ever existed. It is a common practice though. There are planes with Ripmax name on them, but are also sold as Black Horse and other brand names.

TimBle

Graupner has been relabelling BH planes for quite some time. I've had a few ArF's with the graupner box inverted i.e. Graupner art wok on the inside while the BH uses the unprinted side and applies a hoinking great big sticker to label its ARF.

Still waiting on retracts to arrive. Cockpit kit has not even been started yet ( big friction point between my chum and myself right now - been fixing other's trainers in the interim but I'm sti;l waiting...) so I've ordered the ESM cockpit kit from VQWarbirds.

Probably going to doa  Notvotny colour scheme on mine with the Yellow/orange/red detail on teh cowl and rudder. Oh and kill markings.... just to annoy the 1 million mustang pilots out there

kahloq

It is possible that Graupner is labeling some stuff they sell now(or recent past) that are the same planes BH sells. However, in both cases, the planes are manufactured in China or Vietnam, so BH is NOT the manufacturer either.
It is common practice for companies that import planes to a specific market to relabel them to their own name. ESM used to be sold in the USA under the KMP name a couple years ago until ESM got miffed at them.....and in the UK they were under the YT International name plate, but were all the same planes.

In any event, graupner has been around selling planes and other r/c related products long before BH ever came on the scene, however, their presence in the market is no where near what it used to be.

RenraL01

Received the bh focker wulf fw190 last week had to make some changes and rein force firewall as I have fitted a evolution 35cc radial engine.It was a bit of a squeeze but fitted nicely into cowl. I fitted a 6volt 2500mah battery pack at rear before installing rear tail feathers and did not have to move servos as balanced perfectly at suggested C of G.I have used high torque mg servos on all surfaces and spectrum 9000 reciever. All up weight is 11. 38 lbs about 1 lb over weight but she has plenty of power and a nice wing shape for loading. Don't think much of the very wobbly air retracts, have tried adjusting up but still abit slack, think I will put a set of stiffer Oleos on and get rid of those wheels as I fly off grass and they tend to bounce. Can't wait to fly her just got to wait for a day which is not raining. Would put pictures on if I new how too.

TimBle

Sorry but your comments don't add value to the discussion of reduce the fact that the BH brand is the house brand of the manufacturer. Graupner buys ARF's from this very same factory and makes no changes to the ARF. Its the same plane in different packaging. Similar hardware in the box. The only difference is the instructions - Graupner provides their own. The Graupner p-47 is an example.
Graupner also buys from other factories in the region yet when these arf;s carry a graupner label people don't seem to have a problem labelling it as superb quality.................Whats up with that?

I'm now busy with my BH Stuka and the quality is excellent. Sure it's printed stick on covering no painted glass but the wood and glue joints are excellent. SOmeone mentioned that in their opinion the BH warbirds could surpass the ESM in terms of desirability and quality and I see no reason to disagree with that feeling. This hobby is not about absolutes or who is more right than the next guy. Fact is BH market some really superb ARF's that are easy to assemble, fly incredibly well out of the box and don't break the bank.

I will hand it too ESM that their supplied retracts makes the fight a little closer that it would first seem but I also know of many chaps with the ESM electric retracts that have been problematic from the outset. Since this is a Black Horse thread I will say that they offer superb scale aircraft and i do not hesitate buying them.

RBean

I'm still interested in this plane but don't want to pay for the garbage landing gear. In that regard I discovered that Spring Air has their series 700 robo strut ready retracts in a 74 degree version. It would be perfect for this plane. Still need oleo struts. So $117 for the retracts and about $100 for the struts it gets a little expensive when you have to pay for landing gear you are going to throw away. If the weight comes out to around 12 lbs it should fly real good.

TimBle

I bit the bullet on the E-flite electrics butmay yet live to regret it.
Will wait and see but finding good retracts at a reasonable price is no easy challenge

kahloq

Sorry, but no. BH is the house brand of the retailer...... Hobby-people.net. The manufacturer in China is not OWNED by hobby-people and produces products for various companies under whatever name they choose to sell under.
While you think my comments added no value, thats your opinion only because you are invested in the BH fw-190. However, the fact remains, what I said is accurate. BH is located in Vietnam and produces planes on various names for several "labels" some of which are carried by brands NOT called Black Horse...ie graupner or others.

It is the same story with ESM. While the ESM name is used through much of the world, there are still distributors selling them under proprietary names. YT international is one in the UK. There is also another "name" used in parts of Europe, but its the same plane built by the company ESM located in China. KMP used to put their own names on the esm boxes and have manuals printed up with KMP's name on it. They were ESM built though.
KMP is no longer allowed to do so with ESM planes as they are NOT the importer of the esm line into North America any more.

kahloq

Consider getting the ESM fw-190A retracts. Its the same size plane....the retracts come with aluminim oleo struts PLUS aluminum hubbed wheels(the air versions). The gear are proper scale angle. I have a set in my ESM fw-190A8. They are rated for well over 16 pounds.

ESM fw190A pneumatic set including oleos and alum. hubber wheels: $139 USD
http://www.vqwarbirds.com/product_in...6ba0a29c6662d8

ESM fw190A electric versions(same oleos...lighter but still aluminum hubbed wheels:
http://www.vqwarbirds.com/product_in...6ba0a29c6662d8

TimBle

they are way too long for the BH FW 190

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

All that is required is too shorten them by using a milling machine. I modified mine and they work great. Use Robart tire and wheel assemblies.

RBean

Great except I don't have a milling machine and don't intend to buy one. I think the Spring Airs and robart struts are cheaper than a milling machine.