Whats a warbird?
03-17-2011, 04:39 PM
#151
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RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: bjor
I should not have used the term "warbird" but instead used "military aircraft".
I should not have used the term "warbird" but instead used "military aircraft".
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELYpost in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
03-17-2011, 05:02 PM
#152
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RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: Experten109/40
yep. would have saved from alot of trolls posting. I noticed that alot of theses people who are posting that
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
ORIGINAL: bjor
I should not have used the term ''warbird'' but instead used ''military aircraft''.
I should not have used the term ''warbird'' but instead used ''military aircraft''.
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
The Extra 300 flies with the Chilean and Jordanian airforce's in training and demonstration roles - representing the respective airforce and government of each.
There is also ample documentation to demonstrate this. It may not - in the true sense of anybody's definition - be a warbird - but nobody will convince me it's not a "military aircraft".
03-17-2011, 05:45 PM
#153
RE: Whats a warbird?
[/quote]
Actually - the biggest mistake was posting it at all.
The Extra 300 flies with the Chilean and Jordanian airforce's in training and demonstration roles - representing the respective airforce and government of each.
There is also ample documentation to demonstrate this. It may not - in the true sense of anybody's definition - be a warbird - but nobody will convince me it's not a ''military aircraft''.
I don't think it was a mistake posting that question. It just goes to show how many opinions there are on the subject.
There will always be aircraft that fall into what I call the "grey area". These also include former warbird planes that are no longer in proper military markings but in civilian colors primarily reno race schemes.
If one is going to build a plane that falls into this catagory and wants to take it to a "warbird" event, I would ask ahead of time and see if they will allow it. They may or may not.
It's your airplane. Finish it the way you want and go fly and have fun with it.
03-17-2011, 08:12 PM
#155
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RE: Whats a warbird?
Hi All,
At our Club, our Warbird Event is open to any aircraft that correctly carries a National Insignia. . So demonstration teams for example,that carry their national insignia qualify, ambulance aircraft or spotters or personal transport etc. etc. all qualify. As long as there is a national marking clearly displayed, it qualifies for our event.. This may not be everyone's idea of a "Warbird" but it helps solve the "grey " areas .
Cheers,
Merlin Man.
At our Club, our Warbird Event is open to any aircraft that correctly carries a National Insignia. . So demonstration teams for example,that carry their national insignia qualify, ambulance aircraft or spotters or personal transport etc. etc. all qualify. As long as there is a national marking clearly displayed, it qualifies for our event.. This may not be everyone's idea of a "Warbird" but it helps solve the "grey " areas .
Cheers,
Merlin Man.
03-18-2011, 03:44 AM
#156
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: bjor
Who said anything about vintage? I started this threat to ask, what I thought was a simple question ''whats a warbird''. My mistake. I should not have used the term ''warbird'' but instead used ''military aircraft''.
Having asked - I'm more amazed now about how all you so called ''warbird aficionados'' cannot even agree between yourselfs about what constitutes a wirbird. There is so much disagreement here that I'm surprised you can have a ''warbird'' event without a punch-up as to whether it's WW2, seen combat, dropped bombs, armed or is Vintage. I think you guys just make this up as you go.
From the W.M.W.A site
Welcome to the W.M.W.A. Website. We are an organization dedicated to building and flying R/C models built after the designs of the many aircraft used for combat and defense around the world. Model size, method of power and construction are not an issue. We're about friendship, we're about helping each other, we're about introducing this fascinating hobby to young people.
The only debate here would be the words ''combat and defense'' - and how they are interperted. The other bit about ''friendship and helping each other'' is just there to fill a sentance.
ORIGINAL: GerKonig
The extra would not qualify as a PT-17, PT-19, AT-6 because it is not VINTAGE.
Gerry
The extra would not qualify as a PT-17, PT-19, AT-6 because it is not VINTAGE.
Gerry
Having asked - I'm more amazed now about how all you so called ''warbird aficionados'' cannot even agree between yourselfs about what constitutes a wirbird. There is so much disagreement here that I'm surprised you can have a ''warbird'' event without a punch-up as to whether it's WW2, seen combat, dropped bombs, armed or is Vintage. I think you guys just make this up as you go.
From the W.M.W.A site
Welcome to the W.M.W.A. Website. We are an organization dedicated to building and flying R/C models built after the designs of the many aircraft used for combat and defense around the world. Model size, method of power and construction are not an issue. We're about friendship, we're about helping each other, we're about introducing this fascinating hobby to young people.
The only debate here would be the words ''combat and defense'' - and how they are interperted. The other bit about ''friendship and helping each other'' is just there to fill a sentance.
For your information most reliable sources (like the one I posted earlier, that you obviously did not see) define the word "warbirds" indicating the they are VINTAGE. So, you have your opinion, and in this country you are free to have one. Just that opinions are like you know what, and some stink.
So, IF you read the thread you will find 2 definicions from reliable sources, one I posted. So, no, some of us do not make things up as we go:-)
Gerry
PS: But, if you want to argue about the meaning of a word, arm yourself with reliable sources (like dictionaries) that prove your point. Otherwise, it's just your opinion
03-18-2011, 04:07 AM
#157
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: bjor[
Actually - the biggest mistake was posting it at all.
Actually - the biggest mistake was posting it at all.
THERE IS NEVER A STUPID QUESTION - THERE ARE ONLY STUPID ANSWERS. One of my teachers said that somewhat 35-40 years ago - I'm still listen to that .......
03-18-2011, 04:29 AM
#158
RE: Whats a warbird?
And if there is a doubt about the fat that they have to be "vintage" (not currently in operation) here you have some sources (better than opinions). The EAA definition defines warbird for Oshkosh.
Gerry
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/ (in a way they define the term on their website when they talk about what they do
Wiki: Warbird is a term used to describe vintage military aircraft. Although the term originally implied piston driven aircraft from the World War II era, it is now often extended to include all military aircraft, including jet powered aircraft, that are no longer in military service. Vintage jet aircraft in flyable condition, however, are much rarer due to technical complexity.
Sometimes, the term "warbird" also applies to newly built replicas and reproductions of vintage aircraft, such as Allison V-1710 powered Yak-9s from Yakovlev, Me 262s built by the Me 262 Project and FW 190s by Flug Werk, and can, for earlier eras when military aircraft design was of a less complex nature, even include any one of a large number of different World War I and later military aircraft designs, up through the late 1930s in origin, sometimes powered by vintage engines from the era of the aircraft design being flown.
Restored warbirds are a frequent attraction at airshows. Highly modified as well as "stock" warbirds can also frequently be seen at air races, since late-war fighter planes are among the fastest propeller-driven planes ever built. Some of the most popular warbirds for races are the P-51 Mustang, the Hawker Sea Fury, the F8F Bearcat, and the T-6 Texan.
Oxford Essential Dictionary of the US Dictionary
n. a vintage military aircraft.
wordIQ.com:
Warbird - Definition
Warbird is a common term used to describe fighter aircraft from the World War 2 era. The term implies propeller-driven planes with high-powered, noisy engines, risky flight maneuvers and colourful camouflage paint schemes.
Restored warbirds are a frequent attraction at airshows. Souped-up warbirds can also frequently be seen at air races since late-war fighter planes are among the fastest propeller-driven planes ever built. The most popular warbirds for races seem to be the P-51 Mustang, the Hawker Sea Fury, and the F8F Bearcat.
The term is sometimes extended to include vintage bombers and jet fighters; however, most warbird aficionados will only accept a prop-driven fighter as a true warbird.
How about this:
According to EAA Definitions
Warbird = ALL ex-military aircraft.This specifically means an aircraft
that was operated BY the military of any country. This EXCLUDES civilian
equivalents of military aircraft, or developmental aircraft that have
never been operated in a military capacity.
wordnic.com has a good one also:
warbird
–noun
1. an aircraft formerly operated by the military, but now owned privately.
2. any aircraft decorated in military livery for display at airshows etc.
You can also look in:
American Heritage Dictionary
Century Dictionary
GNU Webster's 1913
WordNet
Elsewhere on the web
Gerry
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/ (in a way they define the term on their website when they talk about what they do
Wiki: Warbird is a term used to describe vintage military aircraft. Although the term originally implied piston driven aircraft from the World War II era, it is now often extended to include all military aircraft, including jet powered aircraft, that are no longer in military service. Vintage jet aircraft in flyable condition, however, are much rarer due to technical complexity.
Sometimes, the term "warbird" also applies to newly built replicas and reproductions of vintage aircraft, such as Allison V-1710 powered Yak-9s from Yakovlev, Me 262s built by the Me 262 Project and FW 190s by Flug Werk, and can, for earlier eras when military aircraft design was of a less complex nature, even include any one of a large number of different World War I and later military aircraft designs, up through the late 1930s in origin, sometimes powered by vintage engines from the era of the aircraft design being flown.
Restored warbirds are a frequent attraction at airshows. Highly modified as well as "stock" warbirds can also frequently be seen at air races, since late-war fighter planes are among the fastest propeller-driven planes ever built. Some of the most popular warbirds for races are the P-51 Mustang, the Hawker Sea Fury, the F8F Bearcat, and the T-6 Texan.
Oxford Essential Dictionary of the US Dictionary
n. a vintage military aircraft.
wordIQ.com:
Warbird - Definition
Warbird is a common term used to describe fighter aircraft from the World War 2 era. The term implies propeller-driven planes with high-powered, noisy engines, risky flight maneuvers and colourful camouflage paint schemes.
Restored warbirds are a frequent attraction at airshows. Souped-up warbirds can also frequently be seen at air races since late-war fighter planes are among the fastest propeller-driven planes ever built. The most popular warbirds for races seem to be the P-51 Mustang, the Hawker Sea Fury, and the F8F Bearcat.
The term is sometimes extended to include vintage bombers and jet fighters; however, most warbird aficionados will only accept a prop-driven fighter as a true warbird.
How about this:
According to EAA Definitions
Warbird = ALL ex-military aircraft.This specifically means an aircraft
that was operated BY the military of any country. This EXCLUDES civilian
equivalents of military aircraft, or developmental aircraft that have
never been operated in a military capacity.
wordnic.com has a good one also:
warbird
–noun
1. an aircraft formerly operated by the military, but now owned privately.
2. any aircraft decorated in military livery for display at airshows etc.
You can also look in:
American Heritage Dictionary
Century Dictionary
GNU Webster's 1913
WordNet
Elsewhere on the web
03-18-2011, 04:31 AM
#159
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: Experten109/40
yep. would have saved from alot of trolls posting. I noticed that alot of theses people who are posting that
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
yep. would have saved from alot of trolls posting. I noticed that alot of theses people who are posting that
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
Anyway, a couple of things have been established here:
- there are various definitions of "Warbird"
- one dominant definition is WW1 to WW2 combat aircraft, leaving planes like Hawker Sea Fury, Grumman Bearcat, or Supermarine's Spiteful and Seafang borderline because they came too late.
03-18-2011, 05:01 AM
#161
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: perttime
How many posts in the Warbird forum does it take to give one the right to ask a question, or ( OMG ) have an opinion?
Anyway, a couple of things have been established here:
- there are various definitions of ''Warbird''
- one dominant definition is WW1 to WW2 combat aircraft, leaving planes like Hawker Sea Fury, Grumman Bearcat, or Supermarine's Spiteful and Seafang borderline because they came too late.
ORIGINAL: Experten109/40
yep. would have saved from alot of trolls posting. I noticed that alot of theses people who are posting that
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
yep. would have saved from alot of trolls posting. I noticed that alot of theses people who are posting that
the extra 300 & civilian versions of pipers & whatnot RARELY post in the warbird forum. trolls.. plain & simple.
Anyway, a couple of things have been established here:
- there are various definitions of ''Warbird''
- one dominant definition is WW1 to WW2 combat aircraft, leaving planes like Hawker Sea Fury, Grumman Bearcat, or Supermarine's Spiteful and Seafang borderline because they came too late.
But, as it always happens in real life, there are gray areas. In US markings, a Phantom is a warplane, in Japanese markings it is a not (they are active in Japan). There are many more cases such as this one:-)
Gerry
03-18-2011, 03:52 PM
#162
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RE: Whats a warbird?
This is truly strange. "Warbird" is such acomonly used term, Yet 160 posts into the thread there is no agrement as to wahe a "warbird" is.[8
jess
jess
03-18-2011, 04:46 PM
#163
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: cannonball200
Kahloq;
Note: This aircraft is located in the Presidential Gallery on a secure part of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Click here for visiting instructions.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials. After the war Congress charted the organization in 1946 as a benevolent, non-profit organization and in 1948 designated it as a civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. It provides emergency services in times of local or national disasters, including search and rescue, courier service, mercy missions, and emergency radio communications. It also provides aerospace education and training for its members, supports the USAF, and promotes the development of aviation and aerospace technology.
The Piper J-3 Cub aircraft was designed in 1937 and produced continuously until early in 1942. Beginning in 1939, nearly 75 percent of the primary trainers in the U.S. government's civilian pilot training program were J-3s. In 1942 Piper ceased producing civilian aircraft and began producing the militarized version of the J-3, identified by the Army Air Forces (AAF) as an L-4. An AAF L-4 is on display in the museum's Air Power Gallery. The J-3 on display is further identified as a J-3C-65-8 indicating it is a J-3 aircraft powered by a Model 8 Continental A-65 engine of 65 horsepower. It is painted in the widely known Piper ''Cub yellow''. The aircraft on display was donated in 1971 by the Greene County Composite Squadron, Civil Air Patrol, of Xenia, Ohio.
I'll get more for you..
Thanks,
Kahloq;
Note: This aircraft is located in the Presidential Gallery on a secure part of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Click here for visiting instructions.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials. After the war Congress charted the organization in 1946 as a benevolent, non-profit organization and in 1948 designated it as a civilian auxiliary of the U.S. Air Force. It provides emergency services in times of local or national disasters, including search and rescue, courier service, mercy missions, and emergency radio communications. It also provides aerospace education and training for its members, supports the USAF, and promotes the development of aviation and aerospace technology.
The Piper J-3 Cub aircraft was designed in 1937 and produced continuously until early in 1942. Beginning in 1939, nearly 75 percent of the primary trainers in the U.S. government's civilian pilot training program were J-3s. In 1942 Piper ceased producing civilian aircraft and began producing the militarized version of the J-3, identified by the Army Air Forces (AAF) as an L-4. An AAF L-4 is on display in the museum's Air Power Gallery. The J-3 on display is further identified as a J-3C-65-8 indicating it is a J-3 aircraft powered by a Model 8 Continental A-65 engine of 65 horsepower. It is painted in the widely known Piper ''Cub yellow''. The aircraft on display was donated in 1971 by the Greene County Composite Squadron, Civil Air Patrol, of Xenia, Ohio.
I'll get more for you..
Thanks,
Your statement:
"In 1942 Piper ceased producing civilian aircraft and began producing the militarized version of the J-3, identified by the Army Air Forces (AAF) as an L-4".
The L-4 on the other hand IS a warbird and there is a distinct difference. IE...a "militarized version" as you yourself posted.
03-18-2011, 06:45 PM
#167
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: jeffEE
If a warbird is an EX-military plane, does that make an f-15 not a warbird? I love this thread.
If a warbird is an EX-military plane, does that make an f-15 not a warbird? I love this thread.
According to the definition of the EEAA (an other sources), warbirds are airplanes that are ex-military planes. By definition "vintage" military airplanes. So, if you show up at Air Venture this summer, in an F-16, your airplane is not considered a warbird at the meet. Take this to the bank. Read the definitions from reliable sources I posted earlier. The term is used this way by the full size airplane warbird association.
You can call a warbird anything you want, call the raptor or Chile's Extra a warbird, see if I care. The word "warbird" has a definition, and it really does not matter if you like it. Wishing something does not make it happen!
Now, if you have a "warbird meet" and you define what it means for your club in particular, that is perfectly all right:-) Some meets in our area advertise that the models have to be in military markings (so, at that meet the yellow P-51 with the "Rockwell" marking might not be allowed or a civilian J3 might not be allowed. Notice I said Might. Quite frankly, I doubt they would enforce this rule, but who knows, maybe there is a anal guy in the crowd that complains. People at this meets seem to be quite relaxed, and they are non-competitive meets.... I have seen non 1/4 scale at 1/4 scale meets, and they flew w/o objections...
Gerry
03-18-2011, 07:26 PM
#169
RE: Whats a warbird?
Kahloq;
You don't win this one, sorry. If you will re-read this it tells you the J-3 and Civil Air Patrol was taken over by the government to be part of the armed forces and part of the war machine. All of the yellow J-3 Cub's were not painted green.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials.
Here are pictures and they are "yellow" J-3 Cub's...,,,,.....
Thanks,
You don't win this one, sorry. If you will re-read this it tells you the J-3 and Civil Air Patrol was taken over by the government to be part of the armed forces and part of the war machine. All of the yellow J-3 Cub's were not painted green.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials.
Here are pictures and they are "yellow" J-3 Cub's...,,,,.....
Thanks,
03-18-2011, 07:35 PM
#170
My Feedback: (9)
RE: Whats a warbird?
Bjor, please do not get upset, this is typical. The only guy you have to be concerned about is the CD of any event and you. I keep a flight log in the car and put scale doc’s for each plane in it, in case there is a question when I go to a event, has never happened in 6 to 8 events a year.
When I CD an event I try to give every person that takes the time to charge the batteries, load the car and drive to the event hoping the weather will be good, the chance to fly if they want. If the CD feels the plane will be controversial he should call all the pilots together and ask if this guy who made the effort to come can fly, they always say yes.
I posted my cub just to show how ludicrous the arguments can be. It does not matter what the “experts” here say. They only have power if you give it to them! Don’t concede anything to them, you ask an honest question not knowing it was some ones hot button.
Another hot button is typing here that:
The proper way to control your plane on takeoff is to unload the wing then use aileron. Rudder has coupled down E with it and can cause E problems you don’t need.
Joe
When I CD an event I try to give every person that takes the time to charge the batteries, load the car and drive to the event hoping the weather will be good, the chance to fly if they want. If the CD feels the plane will be controversial he should call all the pilots together and ask if this guy who made the effort to come can fly, they always say yes.
I posted my cub just to show how ludicrous the arguments can be. It does not matter what the “experts” here say. They only have power if you give it to them! Don’t concede anything to them, you ask an honest question not knowing it was some ones hot button.
Another hot button is typing here that:
The proper way to control your plane on takeoff is to unload the wing then use aileron. Rudder has coupled down E with it and can cause E problems you don’t need.
Joe
03-18-2011, 08:40 PM
#171
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RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: Bluffman
Here is something to think about, is a''model A stock'' a hot rod. I think not so a extra 300 hundred isn't either. Just my opinion. Ian
Here is something to think about, is a''model A stock'' a hot rod. I think not so a extra 300 hundred isn't either. Just my opinion. Ian
Mate - your away with the fairies. Enjoy your mushrooms. :-)
03-18-2011, 09:14 PM
#172
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RE: Whats a warbird?
A warbird is..... an rc WWII plane making a high speed low pass 10"' off the ground. Come around again inverted, WITH SMOKE, 10 inches off the ground. Pull up with a victory roll. Make the spectators AHH, and the veterans cry. Ultimate gratification ! Paul
03-19-2011, 04:03 AM
#174
RE: Whats a warbird?
ORIGINAL: cannonball200
Kahloq;
You don't win this one, sorry. If you will re-read this it tells you the J-3 and Civil Air Patrol was taken over by the government to be part of the armed forces and part of the war machine. All of the yellow J-3 Cub's were not painted green.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials.
Here are pictures and they are ''yellow'' J-3 Cub's...,,,,.....
Thanks,
Kahloq;
You don't win this one, sorry. If you will re-read this it tells you the J-3 and Civil Air Patrol was taken over by the government to be part of the armed forces and part of the war machine. All of the yellow J-3 Cub's were not painted green.
This Piper J-3 represents the contributions of the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) to the U.S. Air Force. The CAP was organized on Dec. 1, 1941, under the Office of Civilian Defense and in 1943 was transferred to the War Department. During World War II, CAP members flying their personal aircraft, such as the J-3, hunted for enemy submarines along the U.S. coasts, reported damaged ships, towed aerial targets, and delivered high priority orders of vital war materials.
Here are pictures and they are ''yellow'' J-3 Cub's...,,,,.....
Thanks,
Well, if it was operated by the armed forces, and is not in activity, by definition this cub it is a warbird. Funny, each person (RC pilots) seem to have a different definition in mind. Quite frankly, the only thing that matters is that the organizer of the event you will fly at does not object. If I cover a WWI Taube blue (because I had the covering and/or because I like the color) most likely they will let me fly it at a wabird meet. Of course, at a scale contest, it would be a different story. I have seen J-2 cubs of all colors (inlcuding yellow) at all warbirds meets I attended:-) Nobody ever objected. For me, this hobby is all about having fun. And is someone wants to fly a F-15, F-16 o Raptor at a warbird meet I have no problem because there I never met an airplane I do not like:-)
Now, if you ask for the definition of the term "warbird" I would stick to the definition of the EEAA
Happy landings
Gerry
03-19-2011, 06:19 AM
#175
My Feedback: (15)
RE: Whats a warbird?
In all honesty this thread is what is broken with RCU and why other RC websites are becoming so much more active . RCU initial creation I assumed was to inform , share , educate , instruct , and enjoy the hobby of RC planes . This thread while totally appropriate in a forum of full scale planes and while totally enjoyed by RC pilots who love warbirds serves no purpose in an RC warbird forum .
If the question was posed on whats an RC warbird , more value on wing loading , flying characteristics ect could be gained .
Again , no offence and yes we live in the USA and freedom of speech earned by warbirds is what this country was built on , but again it serves no value in RC warbird formum
If the question was posed on whats an RC warbird , more value on wing loading , flying characteristics ect could be gained .
Again , no offence and yes we live in the USA and freedom of speech earned by warbirds is what this country was built on , but again it serves no value in RC warbird formum