rcphotog

First off, there were a lot of things happing here. A photog in the valley of speed captured a shot of wrinkles on the skin of the right side fuselage aft of the wing in the area where the dog house would have been. No belly scoop=no dog house. The plane had no radiator. It used a boil-off system instead. That was on lap two according to the photog.

Next, as Leeward was entering pylon one for the start of lap three just ahead of Rare Bear, he hit what looks like wake turbulance from Voodo and Strega who were only five seconds ahead. Hitting turbulance no matter how slight at those speeds and while loaded-up with at least 4 Gs will cause some major stress on the airframe.

Next, some thing or some force causes the plane to "pitch-up" suddenly and very abruptly as Leeward was closing the gap on the leaders coming off of pylons 8 and 9.
This sudden change in direction to the vertical most likely put Leeward into G-loc ( black-out ) and at the same time the plane begins to roll to the right (against what the pilots are trainned to do) heading towards the grandstands and ending up inverted (still at race power setting) and then begins a very slow spiral in the same direction (rolling to the right) heading nearly straight down. This whole time Leewards head is down/ forward possibly against the dash headrest or below it and never rises again.

Back to my previous remark about training. All of these pilots are trained in the event of an emergency to always pull up and to the left (towards the course infield) away from all spectators no matter where on the course they are. Leeward did not or could not do this because most likely he was unconscious. At that point the plane was flying by itself.
At no time do we see (from photos) his head again before the crash.

So, even if you want to believe that Leeward regained consciousness to steer the plane away from the crowd, how did he see where he was going with his head down?

I'm a 17 year veteran race fan and I too am very saddend and a little ill over this tragic event. I'm a realist though and only interested in the truth not fantasy.

I think we need to find truth in this no matter how much it may hurt in order to move forward. If this brings an end to the Reno races, so be it.(I'll be very dissapointed) But lets not let our emotions cloud the facts and our assesments of this tragedy.

Respectfully,
Ken Young

Mustang51

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Really? All heros are dead? Cause Ive seen Plenty of pictures of men with purple hearts pinned to their chest and congressional medals of honor hanging around their necks that are still walking around.
Youre still going go with that man was a hero and had superior flying skills flying his plane (all be it straight down into the ground) the hole time and away from the crowd, even though the experts and some of the posts above are speculating(along with my original post) that the pilot was rendered unconcious by the violent sudden pitch up. Not to mention the eye witness accounts that the plane went in at full throttle when the first thing a pilot with a plane in trouble at that altitude would do would pull up(gently) and come off the power.

Please! Check back into reality with most of us who understand the true meaning of the word "hero", and have a grasp of what in life is presented before us. Better yet, sit back and enjoy your ignorant bliss, and let us do the driving.

CorsairJock

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The best video that I've found so far, showing most of the last moments with relative detail, and seeming to conflict with some of the previous spectator reports in that: The Mustang did NOT go 'beyond vertical' in it's initial pull out, and in fact did not seem to climb at much more than a 45 deg angle. It appeared to be, as one spectator described: the beginning of a barrel roll (to the right).

However, once inverted: the roll did not continue, and it began to dive. IF the pilot was concious, AND had control of the ailerons: the logical step would have been an attempt to roll it from inverted, rather than 'pull up elevator'. The path of flight, at the 'top of the barrell roll', would have likely taken the aircraft beyond the grandstands. Instead, it began what appears to be a 1/2 loop from inverted, which brought it back over the grandstands (BTW: grandstands needs some clarification too), and then in FRONT of the grandstands to the 'VIP' area.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GftHiruJAPc&feature=colike
[/youtube]

Question for those that know: did this Mustang have hydraulic assists on the ailerons? I know stock Mustangs don't, but don't know if these race ones do.

Also note, that as I stated in an earlier post: the announcer WAS asking people to 'go to their cars and drive home'.

WhiteRook

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i would think it would have been almost impossible to bail out of that aircraft, pulling those kind of G Forces. no?

merlin51

Hi all. First we must pray for all those that were part of this. I agree with those that say Jimmy was G locked. When you make a pull to the vertical like that you can expect to pull at least 8 G, if not more. He didn't have a G suit on so he most like was out on the way up, after the plane unloaded from the g fore it started down. If Jimmy was awake I am sure he would have flown out of it from the inverted position the plane was in. Like previous post said they, all will pull up and turn left and reduce power if they call a Mayday. I am a member of one of the Jet team that was not able to race this year.
Gods speed to all. Dave

Lnewqban

Yes, the climb looks less than vertical.

Besides, it can be seen that the roll started at little angle of pitch, and also that it was non-continuous but more like a hesitation roll.

Call me ignorant, but the whole idea of making those old airframes perform beyond their design limits seems a little crazy to me.

In 70 years, any metal structure suffers millions of cycles that must lead to fatigue and failure, sooner or later.

That is one of the reasons for which these machines get retired from active duty.

All very sad and tragic.

Airplanes400

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Without a trim tab, it would be impossible to move the yoke/joystick. I experienced this in a small plane at an airspeed of 90 mph and that was extremely difficult to move the yoke. So, I could not imagine what it would be like at 400 mph. I could only guess that it would feel like the joystick was locked up. The pressue it would take to move it, would be far beyond that of most any man ... especially at a speed of 400 mph. Trim tabs are what power-steering is to a car or truck. So imagine trying to turn the wheel of a truck without power steering.

Mustang51

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Youre referring to boost tabs. Trim tabs adjust( the flight control surface)to compensate for pitch, roll, and yaw.
I refuse to believe that the mere loss of a trim tab or boost tab renders a plane uncontrollable.
How many pictures have we all seen of warbirds comming back from missions missing a hole elevator. Heck, i saw a pic of a b17 making it back minus a horizontal stab. I think that whole elevator/stab started to fail possibly due to the trim tab or boost tab letting go causing the whole elevator to flutter(cause in one pic you do see it just hanging ther flopping around). The plane just hit the ground before the rest had a chance to let loose.
Just my oppinion.

Wasnt it just a few years ago that an Israli pilot continued to fly and then land his F-15 after he lost a wing?

blhollo2

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thats just awful[]

Mustang51

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Why?
Im not saying the pilot(Galloping Ghost) did anything wrong, and I didnt mean to compare the piloting skills of two different pilots(hence the seperate paragraph). Just making the observation how some planes have been flown without some pretty major pieces.

Mustangman40

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Everything is amplified at speed and these planes are not war birds any more.. I read that the wings on his plane were clipped 5’ on both sides, they are highly modified racing planes that resemble the war birds that they once were…

The more pictures I see of the cockpit before the crash lead me to belive Jim was unconscious when he went in, but the only ones who know that are his team.. Did they have communication with him till the end, or was he silent?

The pictures do paint a black and white case that the plane did have mechanical problems, parts came off the plane period..

Regardless of what caused this tragedy , it’s a tragedy non the less.. All the guess work in this thread dose not change the fact that people lost their life and many more injured. I myself will not speculate as to what caused the accident, but rather channel that energy into prayers for the people effected by this.. I really doubt that the families of the victims will find any comfort on the real cause of the crash…

But it is very important to find out what really happened for safety purposes and I am sure that a lengthy investigation is well on it’s way, as it should be… May the good lord give all involved the strength to move forward from this tragedy..

Jimbo

Mustang51

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Agreed Jimbo... Truely a great tragedy.

Veltro

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Corsair Jock,

Thanks for posting that video. It was only on YouTube for about 30 minutes before they took it down and suspended the poster due to "violating the terms of his account." I was sorry to see it disappear because it is the best video yet of what happened (although everything after impact could have been deleted). I'm glad someone had copied it and posted it over on LiveLeak.

For those of you questioning the severity of the pitch up, a lot of it has to do with the camera angle. As the plane climbs, it is right in front of and above the cameraman. I time the whole thing at approximately eight seconds. Jimmy's body was still rebooting when the ground got in the way.

Glad you guys who were there are still with us.

ram3500-RCU

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Pete, please read what Doug wrote. The fact that the tail wheel was extended belies the G force when the plane pitched up. As explained, those same G forces would surely put Jimmy, or anyone else in that seat, out. At that point, he was just a passenger. You can clearly see he is not upright in the seat on the way down. Emotions fellow feeling are strong in things like this, but we need to be reasonable as well. Indications are that Jimmy blacked out and had no control of the decent. We can all be very thankful that his slide over the dead line didn't go any farther, or countless more would have died.

This is absolutely no disrespecting of Jimmy, his skills, or his concern for his fans and other spectators. I feel he had no chance or control of the plane once the control components failed. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

rapidrabbit

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pilot may have had health related fail and if you watch the vids he never pulls the power off at all..never see any rolls to the right or left ..no mayday call/common in Reno racing..

ram3500-RCU

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Again, imagine the G force in pitch it would take to overcome the tail wheel lock-up. Anyone would likely black out under that G force. At that AGF, he simply did not have time to recover conciseness and react.

Dick T.

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Terrible accident but one destined to happen at Reno. Hopefully this will not end air racing but it certainly will change it.

Over the years I have become concerned about the modifications made to these aging airframes/designs by people who may, or may not be, qualified to do so. We all want to be confident in racing teams to be doing the correct performance enhancements. However, too often some things are a cut, weld, rivet and go try it. If it stays together, move on to something else. There have been a number of in flight failures to unlimited racers because they push the edge but I feel they have exceeded engineered capabilities of these airframes.

Other on line witness reports outline a number of faults leading up to this crash from wings shaking, fuselage skin wrinkles, rapid wing rock, visible flutter, parts departing the airplane, etc. all within a few seconds. One report said Jimmy declared a mayday just before the pitch up so a problem was unfolding and in the same breath the violent pitch up. He was incapacitated from that point on. It is unlikely on board telemetry will show much about airframe failure as it generally focuses on speed and engine performance.

A tragedy, yes. If Reno air racing continues with an unlimited class I doubt modified 50+ year old airframes will be part of it.

My prayers are for the departed and broken families.

DeferredDefect

Pete - excellent post, and 100% true. We can make speculations about everything else, but we can know for sure he didn't just give up.

Chris Nicastro

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I'll start by saying I'm no expert in this matter and that I feel sorry for those who lost their lives just trying to enjoy their passion for the amazing sport.
Just a few weeks ago I had the amazing pleasure of going for a ride in an F4U-5NL Corsair from Kalispell MT. Getting in the cockpit and riding back seat I realized that there is no way out and that I have to trust in the machine and pilot 100%. That being said I guess I was prepared for anything and I just sat back and soaked it all in.

We took off and headed out towards Glacier Park for about 3mi and then cleared a fly by with the tower. Once cleared we turned around and began our high speed pass run. We began picking up speed and decending, this is the part when I remembered some movie line about pushing the stick forward the houses get bigger pull the stick back and the houses get smaller. Speed still building we get to about 360mph and from the back seat in a left turn I can see the grass race by what looks like 10ft from the wing tip but we were at about 50-60ft on the deck at about 45deg bank and motivated. We passed the hangar, freinds and family, rolled near level and pulled up turning speed to altitude and headed over Glacier Park.
Somewhere between 2500 and 3500 ft over the park the pilot asks so what do you feel like doing see some sites or do some aerobatics? I said the view is just fine let's have some fun. We proceeded to do some rolls and 3 loops and wing over and talk about the difference between a wing over and yo-yo's. Before I knew it our time was up and we headed back to land.

During that flight I finally got to practice the Hick manuever to adjust my breathing and blood flow in a high G condition. We did about 4.5G's, not terribly high but something to deal with for sure.

I wrote about my short war bird experience in light of this tragedy just to say that you cannot feel bad for the pilot who died doing what he loved most in his life. About the victims of the accident what is there to say but I'm sure we are sorry for their loss and maybe we can say the same for them, they died while enjoying the amazing sport they loved because I'm sure anyone of them given the chance would have wanted to be in the cockpit of any of those Reno racers.

So given my very short but very real experience traveling so fast so low in a warbird I would have to say that there is very little time to react, the G's do come on very fast, and add to that a mechanical problem especially an aerodynamic one in these conditions will most certainly render even the best pilots a passenger in their plane even if just a brief moment.

One thing I notice after the pitch up and fight for control is the rudder, there is no deflection in the rudder and barely any in the ailerons. I'm fairly sure given the lack of control throw to counter a spin and the lack of the pilots head in the bubble that he most certainly blacked out due to the tremendous G force that happened almost instantly.

In any case that is just my perspective and I'm very sad for the families and witnesses that had to see the aftermath as well.

All my best wishes and thoughts go out to them all.

Chris

ram3500-RCU

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Well written Chris. Thank you for your contribution.

willig10

Guys:
I just want to make clear here a few things. Before I do I would like to state that I am a pilot and have flown aerobatics in a Nanchang CJ-6 and have done some mild aerobatics in the RV 8 aircraft as well.

First off I want to express my sympathies to all that were injured and to the families that have loved ones that perished.

I have had a few emergencies while flying and almost bit the dust in a homebuilt airplane as well.

It is clearly evident that the pilot of the ghost was not awake during the final seconds before impact. 1st off the telling sign that is screaming out loudlyis he never once pulled the throttle back. The engine was at full song all the way around and at impact.

2nd the airplane started the pull after the trim tab malfunctioned and the roll (almost a barrel roll) ensued. No corrections were made and the airplane was in essence flying itself.

In my experience during an emergency situation. There is a control check that I do to see what is available to me as far as flight controls and engine response goes. 1st is engine, ailerons, elevator and then rudder. None of this took place with the ghost, and for those of you who fly full scale as well as RC I believe we all do the same thing.

I hate it that this happened and I sincerely hope that Reno continues. Things happen when you push an airplane to it's limits. This is not the 1st time and surely will not be the last time it happens. However any race pilot knows the risks involved and signs up to pay the ultimate sacrifice everytime he straps a race plane on. At 500+ mph things happen fast, especially at the altitudes they are flying at.

I hope this post does not come across as callous, that is not my intent. I just wanted to offer up my personal experience. Ask any race pilot if they should cancel Reno and bar none I think you will get the same response. NO!!.

Regards
Glenn Williams

prop wash

Too much speculation,I will wait for the full report.My prayers go out to those families involved.God Bless them.Tom

ram3500-RCU

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Just a little arm chair NTSB investigator, I think. But we do have most of the same pictures that they have, as well as eye witness accounts, thanks to the media and the internet. And the pictures are very telling IMO. The fact that the engine never can off power also speaks volumes to me, given the attitude of the ship as it went in.

Super08

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http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/nt...us&.lang=en-us

Doug Cronkhite

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FWIW.. the NTSB reported today there was no mayday call. Jimmy was the model professional race pilot. Had he called a mayday the FIRST thing he would have done is pulled the power and gotten up off the course. I wish I knew why people fabricated information about these stories. I know it seems romantic to say Jimmy was a hero and fought the airplane to the ground, or flew it away from spectators, but the evidence just doesn't support it. It's almost certain that Jimmy was unconscious from the point of failure all the way to the ground. In my previous post I said the G possibly caused the tailwheel extension, but most people seem to think it was flutter of the tail section caused by the loss of the trim tab and asymmetry of the elevators that actually broke the gear locks. And no, there is no hydraulic assist in any control system on the P-51. It is a purely mechanical airplane.

There is STRONG evidence to provide a pretty accurate picture of what happened, and with the video recovered from the airplane in-cockpit camera the NTSB will have an answer fairly quickly, but the why may take awhile longer.

As for whether discussion like this is disrespectful.. no it is not. The one thing any pilot will tell you is they ALWAYS want to find out what happened if for no other reason than to hopefully prevent it from happening again to anyone else. It IS disrespectful to make some of the absolutely asinine comments I've seen from the general public about his age, health, etc having NO concept of what it takes to get the medical certificate he held, along with the type ratings he was granted by the FAA. Jimmy was likely in better shape at 74 than I am at 43.