Making an ESM Storch flyable
05-18-2015, 06:17 AM
#30
05-18-2015, 07:06 AM
#32
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Having flown a few models with slats I have never seen one fly as badly as the videos of the ESM Storch. I think the problem is much more related to the typical ESM problems, overweight,
center of gravity wrong, overcomplicated linkages, bad hardware, and lousy engineering. It's not just the Storch, I have several ESM planes and have seen a lot of their planes fly and they all have the same problems. The one shown flying in the video looks like it could really use rudder aileron coupling for sure! I would suggest starting at around 20% and going from there.
We had a Brian Taylor Storch fly at one of our scale master qualifiers one time and it flew very well so it is possible to have a good flying Storch. I have an ME163B with slats/slots that also flies well (if you can get the @#$%^ thing off the ground!)
Larry
center of gravity wrong, overcomplicated linkages, bad hardware, and lousy engineering. It's not just the Storch, I have several ESM planes and have seen a lot of their planes fly and they all have the same problems. The one shown flying in the video looks like it could really use rudder aileron coupling for sure! I would suggest starting at around 20% and going from there.
We had a Brian Taylor Storch fly at one of our scale master qualifiers one time and it flew very well so it is possible to have a good flying Storch. I have an ME163B with slats/slots that also flies well (if you can get the @#$%^ thing off the ground!)
Larry
05-18-2015, 07:56 PM
#33
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Hi Larry,
Thanks for the useful input, from the research I did prior to starting the project I saw 3 major challenges:
1. Wing / slat geometry
2. Landing gear and tailwheel
3. Final weight and CG
Most of the hardware will be replaced and I will apply good engineering (I hope
)
I do fly 3D and have no problem flying high alpha with throttle control, turning with rudder and opposite aileron if necessary.
Wow, a Me-163 with working slats? More info pls?
Thanks for the useful input, from the research I did prior to starting the project I saw 3 major challenges:
1. Wing / slat geometry
2. Landing gear and tailwheel
3. Final weight and CG
Most of the hardware will be replaced and I will apply good engineering (I hope
)I do fly 3D and have no problem flying high alpha with throttle control, turning with rudder and opposite aileron if necessary.
Wow, a Me-163 with working slats? More info pls?
05-19-2015, 05:41 AM
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Working on hidden linkages for aileron and flaps
Starting with the resized Severin plans, made many measurements and actual tests on paper using a pin as hinge to ensure correct geometry before commuting
Starting with the resized Severin plans, made many measurements and actual tests on paper using a pin as hinge to ensure correct geometry before commuting
05-19-2015, 06:37 AM
#40
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The 163B had fixed slats. Sort of between slats and slots but more slat like. I built the wing per the plans. I did notice that on one of the many times I had to repair the wing because the landing gear didn't drop off like it is supposed too I had changed the shape of the slats and took away the airfoil shape. There was no discernible difference to the way it flew. Probably because of the size of the slats and the scale effect, ie non scale air!. I built and flew a plane many years ago called a STOL which had fixed slats. It was capable of high alpha flight at very slow speed. I see no reason for the ESM Storch to fly badly other than what I commented on about the general flying characteristics of ESM ARF's
Larry
Larry
05-19-2015, 12:31 PM
#41
I have a Bryant Storch that I have flown many times. It is a good flying airplane. Actually very good but it does need to be flown a little differently than your normal high wing, Cub, trainer or sport model.
The Storch needs rudder for coordinated turns. More so than other high wing Cub type aircraft. Without rudder both adverse yaw and a pitch up will occur and the plane will fight against itself trying turn. Rudder will smooth the turns out and make things much better.
Mine is heavy (about 17 lbs) with all the scale additions but still flies very well with a 91 four stroke. It will take off with flaps in about 10-15 feet and climb at about a 45 degree angle with very little ground speed. Landing with flaps is lots of fun. I like to approach really high at about 200 feet or so. When I am over the first 1/3 of the runway dump full flaps pull the power back and drop the nose and just let it settle into a very steep diving approach. Start the flare about 10 feet high to level and let it settle to a final flare with a ground roll of about 5 feet at mid-field. Really cool! After seeing it fly people are always interested and I ask them to pick it up. They can't believe how it flies for the weight. All the slats, flaps, etc. really work.
It does not like crosswind landings. Not really a problem to land crosswind as there is plenty of aileron control to hold the wing into the wind down and rudder to control yaw but as soon as the tail drops the slat on the wind side starts producing lift and ailerons are no longer effective. It might lift a wing and ground loop but the ground speed is so slow it is not a big deal.
I have mine setup with 3 flap positions - up, down about 45 degrees, and down as much as I can get. I have drooped ailerons set on a separate switch to mix in. I really don't use the aileron droop much because it reduces aileron effectiveness quite a bit especially during the flare. Flaps are plenty effective by themselves at slowing it down. Half flaps are good for take off and slow fight.
I haven't flown mine in a few years. I need to get it down and get it going again.
Good Luck,
David
The Storch needs rudder for coordinated turns. More so than other high wing Cub type aircraft. Without rudder both adverse yaw and a pitch up will occur and the plane will fight against itself trying turn. Rudder will smooth the turns out and make things much better.
Mine is heavy (about 17 lbs) with all the scale additions but still flies very well with a 91 four stroke. It will take off with flaps in about 10-15 feet and climb at about a 45 degree angle with very little ground speed. Landing with flaps is lots of fun. I like to approach really high at about 200 feet or so. When I am over the first 1/3 of the runway dump full flaps pull the power back and drop the nose and just let it settle into a very steep diving approach. Start the flare about 10 feet high to level and let it settle to a final flare with a ground roll of about 5 feet at mid-field. Really cool! After seeing it fly people are always interested and I ask them to pick it up. They can't believe how it flies for the weight. All the slats, flaps, etc. really work.
It does not like crosswind landings. Not really a problem to land crosswind as there is plenty of aileron control to hold the wing into the wind down and rudder to control yaw but as soon as the tail drops the slat on the wind side starts producing lift and ailerons are no longer effective. It might lift a wing and ground loop but the ground speed is so slow it is not a big deal.
I have mine setup with 3 flap positions - up, down about 45 degrees, and down as much as I can get. I have drooped ailerons set on a separate switch to mix in. I really don't use the aileron droop much because it reduces aileron effectiveness quite a bit especially during the flare. Flaps are plenty effective by themselves at slowing it down. Half flaps are good for take off and slow fight.
I haven't flown mine in a few years. I need to get it down and get it going again.
Good Luck,
David
05-20-2015, 04:16 AM
#42
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Hi David,
thanks for the detailed info, you got me all excited now!
Slow, flat rudder turns like a heli is what I want to achieve
Like in this video at 02:45, what a show off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTEpbv5dHEQ
thanks for the detailed info, you got me all excited now!
Slow, flat rudder turns like a heli is what I want to achieve
Like in this video at 02:45, what a show off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTEpbv5dHEQ
05-20-2015, 10:27 AM
#43
Great video! The Storch is such a cool airplane. The model will do pretty much the same stuff the full scale was doing. Rudder turns are not a problem. Rudder will cause a bank in the direction of the turn but not so pronounced as on a high wing with lots of dihedral. You may need a bit of opposite aileron to control the bank for a flat turn. The model really likes flying with half flaps like in the video. It just sort of slows down and locks into a really stable flight mode. The video did confirm the use of rudder. There was lots of rudder use throughout all modes of flight.
I think you are on the right track with your modifications.
One more thing is that I have a scale tail skid on mine not a tail wheel. The skid works great in grass but doesn't give enough traction to work well on concrete or asphalt. For grass the skid provides a good breaking action to make landings really short and it is still easy to taxi. Use up elevator to go straight and down with blips of throttle to swing the tail. The main gear are tall and far forward so the tail has quite a bit of weight on the skid.
Keep working on yours. You will enjoy it.
David
I think you are on the right track with your modifications.
One more thing is that I have a scale tail skid on mine not a tail wheel. The skid works great in grass but doesn't give enough traction to work well on concrete or asphalt. For grass the skid provides a good breaking action to make landings really short and it is still easy to taxi. Use up elevator to go straight and down with blips of throttle to swing the tail. The main gear are tall and far forward so the tail has quite a bit of weight on the skid.
Keep working on yours. You will enjoy it.
David
05-20-2015, 07:56 PM
#44
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David,
Actually the ESM kit I got did not include a tailwheel so I will fabricate one from the Svenson plans
Here's another interesting video with historical footage, some great STOL landings with full LG spring action
Have a look at 1:05, there is a rare scene with a Storch attempting to land at sea on a platfrom towed by a ship.
It seems to me that at the end of the approach the airplane speed is lower than the platform speed, and the Storch ends up in the water!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uliFdtaqpMo
Actually the ESM kit I got did not include a tailwheel so I will fabricate one from the Svenson plans
Here's another interesting video with historical footage, some great STOL landings with full LG spring action
Have a look at 1:05, there is a rare scene with a Storch attempting to land at sea on a platfrom towed by a ship.
It seems to me that at the end of the approach the airplane speed is lower than the platform speed, and the Storch ends up in the water!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uliFdtaqpMo
05-21-2015, 05:44 AM
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Hey w1nd6ufa,
Cool videos !! In the first one you can see the differential in the aileron deflection at 2:06 in the video as he passes right in front of the camera. The right aileron lifts noticeably and the left one hardly deflects. https://youtu.be/bTEpbv5dHEQ?t=2m
Also cool to compare the aileron settings at take off with the ailerons centered but later when he's doing slow flight you can see the ailerons in the "flaperon" position. Pause the video at 48 seconds and at 1:16
At first I thought I saw the slats in two positions, but after looking at the video over and over they appear to be fixed... Or at least never changed position.
After this thread the price of the ESM Storch is going to go up !!
You are showing the way. If anyone can find one, they will have a definitive guide on how to build it !! Great thread.
Joe
Cool videos !! In the first one you can see the differential in the aileron deflection at 2:06 in the video as he passes right in front of the camera. The right aileron lifts noticeably and the left one hardly deflects. https://youtu.be/bTEpbv5dHEQ?t=2m
Also cool to compare the aileron settings at take off with the ailerons centered but later when he's doing slow flight you can see the ailerons in the "flaperon" position. Pause the video at 48 seconds and at 1:16
At first I thought I saw the slats in two positions, but after looking at the video over and over they appear to be fixed... Or at least never changed position.
After this thread the price of the ESM Storch is going to go up !!
You are showing the way. If anyone can find one, they will have a definitive guide on how to build it !! Great thread.Joe
05-21-2015, 05:49 AM
#46
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Wow, nice video, now I've got the Storch bug big time 
Moving on to finish the wing, I made some jigs based on the Severin plan for the correct slat offset
Moving on to finish the wing, I made some jigs based on the Severin plan for the correct slat offset
05-21-2015, 05:55 AM
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With the wing finished, I wanted to somehow test it to make sure it's flyable before continuing the project.
In lack of a wind tunnel I settled for the best alternative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFHBegjKCs4
In lack of a wind tunnel I settled for the best alternative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFHBegjKCs4
05-21-2015, 09:35 AM
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Hey wind6urfa,
Be careful Adrian Newey is going to be calling you !! That's the best thing I've seen in a long time !!
I can see it now,,,,, Jeep introduces it's new Storch Performance Package !!! Complete with adjustable wing elements.....
Joe
Be careful Adrian Newey is going to be calling you !! That's the best thing I've seen in a long time !!
I can see it now,,,,, Jeep introduces it's new Storch Performance Package !!! Complete with adjustable wing elements.....
Joe
Last edited by Joespeeder; 05-21-2015 at 09:58 AM.
