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TF Giant Scale P-51...Super Tigre 3250 or 4500

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TF Giant Scale P-51...Super Tigre 3250 or 4500

Old 12-11-2016, 05:06 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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Default TF Giant Scale P-51...Super Tigre 3250 or 4500

In have a new Top Flite Giant Scale P-51 ARF and would appreciate an opinion from someone who actually has first hand experience with this combination.

BEFORE YOU GAS GUY START TELLING ME TO GO WITH GAS, I have Asthma and cannot use gas engines...I have tried!

I have several Big Super Tigre engines: 3000, 3250 and 4500. I am considering using the 3250 as I feel the 4500 is overkill. I see several guys use the Moki 2.10 and reading performance comparisons, the ST 3250 is similar in performance with the Moki 2.10.

Your opinions will be appreciated.

Regards....
Old 12-11-2016, 05:39 PM
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chris923
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I understand about the gas. We have a guy in our club with the same issue. He uses Coleman fuel ( white gas) it doesn't have the benzine and other chemicals,you might want to look into that.
As far a glow goes, put biggest one that will fit in the cowl.I have 4 TF-51 arf's. As you learn to fly them, you will want more speed. You don't have to use all the power, you can throttle back. But when you want it it's there!
Old 12-11-2016, 08:27 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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Thanks for the comment. I have been flying for 35 years, mainly .60-.120 sized warbirds. I was primarily interested in the 3250 flying the Mustang as the next plane will be the G.S. Corsair, where I intent to install the 4500.
Old 12-12-2016, 01:54 AM
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Lifer
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Both the Mustang and the Corsair will need ballast. Likely, the Corsair will need the most. Follow your plan to put the larger engine in the F-4U.
Old 12-12-2016, 03:50 PM
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Chris Nicastro
 
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I've flown both on DLE 55's
With the Mustang I'd say keep it as light as you can because you don't have as much power as the bigger displacement 55 and 61 engines. From my experience this Mustang likes power and speed and it will snap at low speeds with aggressive commands so keep its energy high when flying.

The Corsair will take both the weight and more power and fly great. I'm currently flying one with a Saito FG 84 which is a very heavy engine. You may find you need as much as 4 pounds of lead up front. That's what it took when I had the DLE 55RA in there.

Ive run gas boats on white gas as suggested earlier, camping fuel. Works great, the boats ran with 26cc Zenoha engines just fine, no smell except the oil. Maybe an option for you but you have the engines in hand sounds like so go with what you got.

Last edited by Chris Nicastro; 12-12-2016 at 03:53 PM.
Old 12-13-2016, 10:46 AM
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Red Baron Mike
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Chris,

I am not familiar with the use of Coleman fuel in gasoline engines. Is it "plain" Coleman fuel as shown below? If so, what do you add to it to make it
usable, just oil in the usual percentages added to gasoline? Please advise....

Thanks,
Mike

Old 12-13-2016, 06:43 PM
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Chris Nicastro
 
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It's been a while since I've done this let me review and I'll post that info.
I'm pretty sure that was the fuel and the oil ratio was typical but I don't want to mislead you.
Old 12-13-2016, 07:00 PM
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Chris Nicastro
 
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Ok so we used White Fuel aka Coleman camping fuel as in your photo and mixed it with Klotz at 36:1.
I never saw any problems with the engine, in all respects it ran clean and reliable. We tested several boats with Zenoah, CYCC, and clone engines up to 4.5 hp little 26cc engines.

Watch the engine temps and tune. This fuel has a much lower octane than pump gas, about 55, and can cause detonation although I never saw any issues and I didn't need to adjust timing. Strange considering they claim 10:1 compression on these DLE engines. You can add Octane Boost to the batch which will help increase the octane to normal pump gas levels if you see the need.

Use a new NGK CM6 plug not the clone junk spark plugs too.

You might like this combo for your health reasons.
Old 12-13-2016, 07:13 PM
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chris923
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Mike View Post
Chris,

I am not familiar with the use of Coleman fuel in gasoline engines. Is it "plain" Coleman fuel as shown below? If so, what do you add to it to make it
usable, just oil in the usual percentages added to gasoline? Please advise....

Thanks,
Mike


Yes, this is the right stuff. You can mix it with any type of two cycle oil at whatever ratio required.
Old 12-13-2016, 08:12 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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Thanks Guys. Sounds good!
Old 12-13-2016, 09:59 PM
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Mike,

A suggestion if I may, try the DLE 55RA in either plane. This engine is so nice to install and so compact. It's the perfect fit in the P-51 and keeps the nose looking nice. I've had a couple, great and reliable engine. Break it in nice and easy, use Klotz oil at 36:1 and an NGK CM6 with Xoar 22x10 wood or carbon prop. This has been the perfect combo for me for many years now. I've owned and operated most of the DLE's from the 20 to the 55.
I can give you a couple more tips once you get the engine, should you get this engine.
Old 12-14-2016, 05:51 AM
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ccostant
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+1 on the DLE 55RA in the TF P-51. Great combination.Very impressed with the DLE 55RA, I get ~ 1400 rpm at the low end and ~7000 at the high end. I put this one together last year.

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Old 12-14-2016, 09:41 AM
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Red Baron Mike
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Chris,

Thanks for the info. In review of the DLE55RA specs, a minimum of 87 octane is required which will eliminate the use of Coleman fuel.

Mike
Old 12-14-2016, 10:30 AM
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Chris Nicastro
 
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I know but we tried it anyway on boat engines that have the same requirements and they worked fine.
Octane is related to the flash point of the fuel under pressure. The higher the octane the more resistant it is to predetonation like a diesel combustion chamber instead.
Ive been using 92 octane Non Ethanol because it's the right octane value for the specified compression ratio. But, I've also run the other lower octane fuels and have not seen any appreciable difference too. So I use NonE just to help preserve seals and gaskets and fuel lines. I can only get 92 NonE here too.
My flying buddy has tried racing gas at 100 octane and said the same thing, save your money.

So in my opinion these engines probably can't maintain a good enough seal at the ring to make the high compression count. If they did then all the various octane fuels would of required a timing adjustment beyond the electronic advance or retard the module provides. On the boat engines they use a magneto and we didn't have to adjust them either.

This is where an aftermarket ring like Bowman is supposed to help increase performance by making a better seal.

Food for thought...
Old 12-14-2016, 03:18 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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I contacted Desert Aircraft regarding the use of Coleman Fuel in their engines. Here is their reply:
Hi Mike
Sorry, but the Coleman fuel octane is too low. We have seen overheating and needle bearing damage from detonation.
Thanks
Dave
Old 12-14-2016, 03:40 PM
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daveopam
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I'm not trying to be a smart alec. What is the deal with asthma and gas? Is it the raw fumes that get you or the burnt fuel? Cause honestly the gas motors are so much better I think I would wear a mask if I had to when fueling before I would go back to glow. I owned a 3250 for many years and it was a power house. But it took a lot of tinkering with fuels and a Cline regulator to get the performance I wanted.

david
Old 12-14-2016, 04:12 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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Dave,

Fortunately for you, you don't have Asthma and therefore cannot relate to what i am dealing with. Three or four times I bought gas engines and tried to use them, even with "cherry scented additives". The fumes from the engines (not the exhaust but the overall raw gasoline smell) the lingering odor in the car, my garage, my clothes...it is very offensive to me. I own two full size boats with outboards and they don't bother me. However, when I carry a gas can in my truck, the fumes bother me. Model gasoline engines operation is much worse.

As regards the big Super Tigres, I have been using them for years without fuel pumps or any other special devices. The engines with transition problems have carbs with too large a venturi, causing excessive leaning out when the throttle is cracked open. Guys who switch to the OS 7D card and have success is because of the small venturi. Apparently Super Tigre tried to increase power with the larger carbs and created a much bigger problem. I run the ST 3000 engines, the earlier ones with the smaller carbs. No issues at all. I have recently bought two new Italian Made 3250's for the TF GS P-51.

This entire conversation started when a suggestion was made to use Coleman fuel, something I was not aware of. The ONLY reason for my interest in switching away from glow is to eliminate the oily mess on the plane. The increased cost of glow fuel over gasoline is a non-issue for me as I fly for recreation on the weekends. It is not as if I were driving cross country on a regular basis!

Mike
Old 12-14-2016, 04:51 PM
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daveopam
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Thanks for the explanation Mike. I didn't think about the transportation and storage. I can see where that would be an issue if you have a sensitivity to the stuff. My brother hauled odorant once upon a time. It's the stuff that makes gas smell. One drop of it can clear a room.
My style of flying is 3D/aero and while I did get the Tigre sorted out the gas is just much easier. For your warbird style the Tigre's would be a great choice. Glow fuel is going to get higher and more rare as time goes on. Maybe a diesel conversion is in your future :-)

Thanks, david
Old 12-14-2016, 07:09 PM
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Red Baron Mike
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Thanks Dave for your comments. I haven't completely given up yet. I understand AVGAS also has no smell, yet has plenty of octane, 100+. I will check it out.

Anyone have experience using AVGAS and if in fact it doesn't have a gasoline smell?
Old 12-15-2016, 08:07 AM
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daveopam
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Another thought. I know someone who only burns VP racing fuel in his DA powered planes. I think it's about 8 bucks a gallon. Still cheaper than glow and it's 100 octane. In my small town it's available in 5 gallon or 55 gallon. If you can go to their site and find a dealer I'm sure you could go and smell it. On the AV gas, last I heard it still had some lead or synthetic type of lead in it. Not sure that would be an issue or not.

David
Old 12-15-2016, 08:16 AM
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Red Baron Mike
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Dave,

Thanks again for your comments. While I continue to sort out the gas engine issue, I want to ask about your previous use of the ST 3250. Do you feel it had sufficient power to fly the Top Flite Giant P-51 (85" wing, 22 pounds)?

Thanks....
Old 12-15-2016, 08:24 AM
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My time on a warbird is limited but I will say this. I think the 3250 will fly it fine. But most of us in the RC world want them to scream. For example a DA-50 on a AW P-51 is a great combination. But a DA-85 takes it to the next level. The 3250 I had was on a 15-16 lbs 1/4 scale Suhkio. I could hover it at about 75% throttle but the pull out was not dramatic. I want the pull out to be dramatic even though it's not even close to scale. If a person want's to fly closer to scale they can get away with less power.


David
Old 12-15-2016, 08:41 AM
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larry@coyotenet
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Have both and MOKI 2.1. also have TF giant 47, 51 and Corsair. A Moki would fly the 51 if kept as light as possible and you used a tuned pipe, That is if you want reasonable performance . I am sure a 3250 would fly the plane but it would be pretty doggy as a 3250 is not comparable to a Moki 2.1 in power. The 4500 is in all respects the equal of a G-62 and flies the big TF planes quite well, fuel consumption is not as bad as everyone would have you believe. I fly the 4500 on alky and 10-12% oil so cost is not that bad. You could also convert the gas engines to glow using alcohol and oil at the same ratio as gas and oil by changing the carb to one with bigger jets or you could even convert a gas engine to a glow plug and run nitro fuel. Bottom line is that the 3250 was used in 80" planes like the Hanger Nine series and weights under 20lbs and gave reasonable performance, I don't think the TF 51 would be good with anything less than a 50 cc gasser or that 4500.
Larry
Old 12-15-2016, 09:23 AM
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Red Baron Mike
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Larry,

Looking at performance comparisons between the Moki 2.10 and the ST3250, they appear to be very similar. Since you have both, do you feel the Moki is definately a stronger running engine? Can the Moki 2.10 use the same low oil fuel as the Big Super Tigres and is it better on fuel usage than the ST4500 (I am trying to avoid using the 4500 because of its massive weight).

Thanks,
Old 12-15-2016, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Mike View Post
Chris,

Thanks for the info. In review of the DLE55RA specs, a minimum of 87 octane is required which will eliminate the use of Coleman fuel.

Mike
Our club member uses Coleman in several Dle's with no issue. With out octane boost.

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