Scale for competition
01-19-2005, 10:22 PM
#1
Scale for competition
What are some of the criteria for judging in a scale competiton? What I'm curious about regards specific detail included on an aircraft. When a particular type is modeled, do the features included have to be for a specific plane of that type, or can they be features that were seen on some of that type, but not others?
This is what I'm thinking of. My next project is a 0-1 Birddog, 1/4 scale from Vaillancourt plans. I plan to do a Vietnam era version, and regardless of the variant, field modifications were done to make the individual plane more suitable to the unit using it, or even the individual pilot. I want to build a plane that embraces some of these mods, and to make it interesting, and pleasing, to look at. Birddogs weren't all that "glamorous" and for the most part rather drab, but there were a couple of paint patterns that were pretty cool. However, they might not have some of the more interesting mods that a plainer plane
might have had. I want to do an "amalgam" of several planes, actually, combine some features that might not have been seen on the same single aircraft, but are nevertheless historically accurate and representative of the plane as used in combat. All equipment particular to a given variant would be accurate, in other words, if the "A" model had a fixed pitch prop, then a variable pitch prop would not be modeled, since it was not used. But rocket pods were, on all variants so they would be appropriate. And say that a particular squadron may not have had a camo paint scheme, but had a very interesting logo, so both were included on the model, although they might not have existed together on a specific plane?
How would things like this be approached in judging?
This is what I'm thinking of. My next project is a 0-1 Birddog, 1/4 scale from Vaillancourt plans. I plan to do a Vietnam era version, and regardless of the variant, field modifications were done to make the individual plane more suitable to the unit using it, or even the individual pilot. I want to build a plane that embraces some of these mods, and to make it interesting, and pleasing, to look at. Birddogs weren't all that "glamorous" and for the most part rather drab, but there were a couple of paint patterns that were pretty cool. However, they might not have some of the more interesting mods that a plainer plane
might have had. I want to do an "amalgam" of several planes, actually, combine some features that might not have been seen on the same single aircraft, but are nevertheless historically accurate and representative of the plane as used in combat. All equipment particular to a given variant would be accurate, in other words, if the "A" model had a fixed pitch prop, then a variable pitch prop would not be modeled, since it was not used. But rocket pods were, on all variants so they would be appropriate. And say that a particular squadron may not have had a camo paint scheme, but had a very interesting logo, so both were included on the model, although they might not have existed together on a specific plane?How would things like this be approached in judging?
01-19-2005, 10:34 PM
#2
My Feedback: (101)
RE: Scale for competition
it depends on which class you enter in. Scale is usually specific to a specific airplane and not type. Your documentation should represent the airplane you have or vice versa but either way if your plane has certain detail and the documentation doesnt show it, you loose points . The class your plane would be fine in is FunScale because all you need there is a picture, or 3 views or even a model to show that this type aircraft di exist. Clear as mud? When you enter a contest with a scale model, you are taking the full size airplane and shrinking it down . The judges should not be able to tell the difference between your model and the full size.
01-19-2005, 10:50 PM
#3
Senior Member
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RE: Scale for competition
khodges, I haven't entered any scale competitions, but I have read a bit about scale judging and talked to many folks who have competed. The model entered must match the documentation. In other words, your model must match your documentation (period). In the course of your research, you may find something that is dead wrong with the documentation (example the 3 view you are using) and have the urge to fix that error on your model. DON'T DO IT! The judges will invariably go with the documentation provided...so if it's on the 3 view it had better be on the model...if it's not on the 3 view, it had better not be on the model. Also, I have heard many scale competitors say to never use a color photo of the aircraft in the documentation. Film type, processing, age and lot's of other things can affect the colors in a photograph. Color chips are better, but not perfect. Whatever you use, your model had better be those colors. See where I'm going? Don't put in a color photo that doesn't match the color chips you are using and vice versa. A B&W photo is better, but you will need some sort of written documentation to verify your color scheme/ cammo pattern etc. Well, I guess that's all for now...let's see how things look when the competition guy's start to chime in. They can probably explain this better than I can...I just hate to see a post without a reply
Rob / Pickupsticks
Rob / Pickupsticks
01-19-2005, 11:15 PM
#4
RE: Scale for competition
That's pretty much as I expected. There's going to be some serious detail on this plane, but I want to make it "colorful" as well. Right now I'm leaning toward one of two camo patterns, and I have photos documenting their use in Vietnam. One was an "unofficial" pattern, a tiger stripe; and the other was more of a woodland pattern the Air Force tried for a short period, but abandoned because the fast movers couldn't pick the plane that was controlling them out of the background. The other thing I want to model was used on very few, there was design in the works by Cessna that never was put into production, but some units added themselves: an M60 machine gun, some were mounted on one of the wing pylons, and a few were mounted out the side window of the observer's position, sort of a "mini gunship". There was even a squadron called "Ravens" that flew night interdiction missions in Laos, armed with explosive rockets and painted in dark gray to black with little to no markings.
You can't deny that a model like this would be more interesting to look at than either the O.D. green Army or Dove Gray USAF, which in actual fact about 90% were either one or the other. The model I build will be absolutely true to a particular variant, but the visual appeal is important to me also. Not to mention that the camo pattern will make aspect angle in flight easier to determine. The camo birds had a blaze orange stripe across the span of the wing as well as on the turtle deck behind the observer's rear window.
I really am not that interested in scale competition, at least in participating myself, but was interested if ever I decided to for the heck of it.
You can't deny that a model like this would be more interesting to look at than either the O.D. green Army or Dove Gray USAF, which in actual fact about 90% were either one or the other. The model I build will be absolutely true to a particular variant, but the visual appeal is important to me also. Not to mention that the camo pattern will make aspect angle in flight easier to determine. The camo birds had a blaze orange stripe across the span of the wing as well as on the turtle deck behind the observer's rear window.
I really am not that interested in scale competition, at least in participating myself, but was interested if ever I decided to for the heck of it.
01-19-2005, 11:29 PM
#5
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Scale for competition
Rob has hit most of it, but is slightly incorrect on a couple of items. First off if your 3-view is wrong, don't sweat it. You will need a picture of "the exact aircraft" you are modeling to show the discrepancy of the 3-view. Make a reference between the two and you are covered there. It is quite usual to find that most all 3-views are not totally correct. They are generic on the average.
A picture of the aircraft being modeled is a great asset. You have to prove your aircraft actually existed. A color drawing inside some book isn't the total truth in the judges eyes.
Next color chips are mandatory if you want to do good in the static circle. They are required at Top Gun; and the Scalemasters I believe. You might get away with it at the local level, but don't count on it. This is where the color pic isn't the greatest idea as Rob mentioned. The difference in hues and such will just confuse the judges and when they are confused, you will loose points.
The great part about scale modeling is it is your masterpiece and can be done however you choose. Mixing and matching a couple of birds isn't a sin, and can be a welcome part of the hobby. If you attend local fly-in type events where documentation is not required, then all you have to do is please the public and pilots for a possible award, and that can be fun in itself.
Remeber the first rule of scale modeling. NEVER EVER begin a project without having the complete documentation package in front of you and build the model to the documentation.
A picture of the aircraft being modeled is a great asset. You have to prove your aircraft actually existed. A color drawing inside some book isn't the total truth in the judges eyes.
Next color chips are mandatory if you want to do good in the static circle. They are required at Top Gun; and the Scalemasters I believe. You might get away with it at the local level, but don't count on it. This is where the color pic isn't the greatest idea as Rob mentioned. The difference in hues and such will just confuse the judges and when they are confused, you will loose points.
The great part about scale modeling is it is your masterpiece and can be done however you choose. Mixing and matching a couple of birds isn't a sin, and can be a welcome part of the hobby. If you attend local fly-in type events where documentation is not required, then all you have to do is please the public and pilots for a possible award, and that can be fun in itself.
Remeber the first rule of scale modeling. NEVER EVER begin a project without having the complete documentation package in front of you and build the model to the documentation.
01-19-2005, 11:42 PM
#6
RE: Scale for competition
Thanks, John, you sound like somebody that's been in the judging ring. It's easy to see that a truly colorful plane with a specific history could get the crap modeled out of it, whereas a plain jane is going to be more likely to be passed over as a choice to be modeled. I mainly want an interesting to look at plane that will do honor to those guys who stuck their backside on the line for "king and country" in them. Fun scale or people's choice might be where I should go. It's gonna be a while, before I can even start this thing, got a house to remodel first, and then get me a bigger building table. I couldn't get an idea of how big this thing was, and was worried that I'd have to cut holes in the cowl for the carb, etc, but when I got the cowl the other day, I could put a twin in it without cutting. Can't wait to start.
01-20-2005, 12:44 PM
#7
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RE: Scale for competition
Scale has alot of un-written rules that I run across after being a competitor, Contest Director, Judge and spectator. Here are some things that I use when putting documentation together and building a scale model
1) Always Always Always prepare the documentation first, then build the model, Did I say ALWAYS do the documention first
2) Find an accurate 3-view, photographs of the exact airplane you are dupilicating can take precedence over the 3-view. Remember you are duplicating the airplane in the photographs. Pick one particular airplane to copy...
3) revise the plans or kit you are buiding from to match your 3-view and documentation, re-read step #1....again
4) Some restored warbirds have been modified by the owners and have features that will never be on any 3-view, but remember your photographs is used to show the changes like longer canopies on F8F bearcats, modified rudders on Hawker Sea Fury, Different propellers on Hawker Sea Fury for example
5) Have a scale judge in your area judge your model before you compete for the first time to find the problem areas, fix model and documentation as needed
6) Outline is important, it must match your 3-view and photographs
7) not all 3-views are correct, example the Wylam B-29 3-view from 1946 or so has a fin/rudder shape that is completely wrong and does not match any photograph I have ever seen. The Koku-fan 3-view is a better choice.
8) If the photograph shows 4 details, all 4 details should be on the model, if the model doesn't have all of the details, do not include the photograph in documentation. By including the picture in the documentation and only having 3 of the 4 details you are proving to the judges your model is not correct and you will lose points.
9) Pick a model that will work consistantly at the field, more than you think guys show up with engines that don't work, retracts that fail. don't make the model so complex it is hard to make work at a contest. More than once I have scored better than other guys simply because I was able to get my model airborne and everything worked.
10) do not confuse the judges. Pick ONE airplane to duplicate, only show pictures from that ONE airplane and copy it to the last detail. If you have to you can include a "TYPICAL" detail photo.
11) color vs black and white, I like to use color and then use color chips for proof of color. The judges are only suppose to use the color photos for details and configuration. Color information comes from the color chips
12) Do not give the judges a book on your aircraft and expect them to read thru and find the proper information. Prepare a 3-ring binder with the proper number of pages and clearly defines the outline, color, markings and paint scheme of the aircraft selected.
13) some folks want to do a "Typical" P-51 and then mix and match details, markings and colors to create a aircraft that never existed. Pick one particular airplane to copy and copy that ONE particular aircraft. It is best if you can get a photopack like from bob Banka or similar sources.
www.bobsairdoc.com
14) you can get color information from plastic models sometimes....FS numbers and the like
15) fly the model like they would fly the full size aircraft. Let's say you have a P-51, your takeoff should slowly power up the engine, allow the tail to rise, gain speed and then climb out, don't leap off the ground. Try to get video or see in person the type of aircraft you are modeling and observe how the airplane lands, takes off and flies.
16) pick flight options that make sense, in other words don't pick a cuban 8 aerobatic manuever with a B-17 bomber, while your model might be capable of doing that option, the real did not. also fly at scale speed that looks right.
Good luck,
Fred Cronenwett
1) Always Always Always prepare the documentation first, then build the model, Did I say ALWAYS do the documention first
2) Find an accurate 3-view, photographs of the exact airplane you are dupilicating can take precedence over the 3-view. Remember you are duplicating the airplane in the photographs. Pick one particular airplane to copy...
3) revise the plans or kit you are buiding from to match your 3-view and documentation, re-read step #1....again
4) Some restored warbirds have been modified by the owners and have features that will never be on any 3-view, but remember your photographs is used to show the changes like longer canopies on F8F bearcats, modified rudders on Hawker Sea Fury, Different propellers on Hawker Sea Fury for example
5) Have a scale judge in your area judge your model before you compete for the first time to find the problem areas, fix model and documentation as needed
6) Outline is important, it must match your 3-view and photographs
7) not all 3-views are correct, example the Wylam B-29 3-view from 1946 or so has a fin/rudder shape that is completely wrong and does not match any photograph I have ever seen. The Koku-fan 3-view is a better choice.
8) If the photograph shows 4 details, all 4 details should be on the model, if the model doesn't have all of the details, do not include the photograph in documentation. By including the picture in the documentation and only having 3 of the 4 details you are proving to the judges your model is not correct and you will lose points.
9) Pick a model that will work consistantly at the field, more than you think guys show up with engines that don't work, retracts that fail. don't make the model so complex it is hard to make work at a contest. More than once I have scored better than other guys simply because I was able to get my model airborne and everything worked.
10) do not confuse the judges. Pick ONE airplane to duplicate, only show pictures from that ONE airplane and copy it to the last detail. If you have to you can include a "TYPICAL" detail photo.
11) color vs black and white, I like to use color and then use color chips for proof of color. The judges are only suppose to use the color photos for details and configuration. Color information comes from the color chips
12) Do not give the judges a book on your aircraft and expect them to read thru and find the proper information. Prepare a 3-ring binder with the proper number of pages and clearly defines the outline, color, markings and paint scheme of the aircraft selected.
13) some folks want to do a "Typical" P-51 and then mix and match details, markings and colors to create a aircraft that never existed. Pick one particular airplane to copy and copy that ONE particular aircraft. It is best if you can get a photopack like from bob Banka or similar sources.
www.bobsairdoc.com
14) you can get color information from plastic models sometimes....FS numbers and the like
15) fly the model like they would fly the full size aircraft. Let's say you have a P-51, your takeoff should slowly power up the engine, allow the tail to rise, gain speed and then climb out, don't leap off the ground. Try to get video or see in person the type of aircraft you are modeling and observe how the airplane lands, takes off and flies.
16) pick flight options that make sense, in other words don't pick a cuban 8 aerobatic manuever with a B-17 bomber, while your model might be capable of doing that option, the real did not. also fly at scale speed that looks right.
Good luck,
Fred Cronenwett
01-20-2005, 01:24 PM
#8
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Scale for competition
Fred's post is right on. The big key in the static circle is to make sure you just have the right amount of info for the judges. Too much and they have to think, and when they do that they routinely get all screwed up. Treat the judges to a point where they don't have to think. Keep in mind they are judging a number of aircraft and cannot possibly know all there is on your aircraft.
The circle can be easy money if you are prepared. A high score in the circle will help dramatically in the final score. A low score in the circle and you will never make it up. Flying is the next part. This is where you earn your money. You will normally fly a total of four rounds. They will throw out your best score and your lowest score, and then average the other two. Consistency is the key. I have been to a few contest and watched guys have to fly in crosswinds and such and fight the plane all the time. Practice is the key.
The circle can be easy money if you are prepared. A high score in the circle will help dramatically in the final score. A low score in the circle and you will never make it up. Flying is the next part. This is where you earn your money. You will normally fly a total of four rounds. They will throw out your best score and your lowest score, and then average the other two. Consistency is the key. I have been to a few contest and watched guys have to fly in crosswinds and such and fight the plane all the time. Practice is the key.
01-20-2005, 02:15 PM
#9
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Scale for competition
I am posting a link to the Scale Masters Web site. On there you will find a download to their Competition Guide.. please read it as it's very usefull. The AMA uses a little different guide but not that far from Scale Masters, and that goes for Top Gun as well. Remember that your Static score is HALF of your over all score. You cannot do well over all with a poor static score so keep that in mind. Something else to think about.. if you want to compete then model a plane that you can document well rather than a plane that you like because of it's looks. Some times you can do both.. but not always.
http://www.scalemasters.org/
http://www.scalemasters.org/
01-20-2005, 03:01 PM
#10
RE: Scale for competition
A lot of useful information here .Most all of us at one time or another have read a scale judging guide,however it is first rate to have selected this very important topic.
I find this thread of great interest as I thought I knew the importance of a so called"good scale 3 view," only to find discrepancies;which brings me to the subject of consistency.
-select a three view After you have 'validated it,'then stick with it.
-use 'only' photos of the exact full scale airplane you are replicating*with the exception of say landing gear ,a pito tube, Etc..
-A color photo of the exact plane you are replicating is a plus when backed up with the Federal Standard color chip as a reference to say military standard colors of the period..
*Many of our "favorite'War Birds were painted in the field for squadron I.D. purposes say a red nose and yellow tail HOW DO WE VALIDATE THIS? With a faded color photo?
-A good presentation of course will of mandate a folder;so use this to clarify your aircraft scale details,with out over whelming the scale judge(s)
-A good point was made about insuring your replica is reliable in it's operation. (plenty of time at home to entertain your neighbors with an engine run up..
-Much has been written as to scale flying. Just Know your models limitations,with regards to take off and landing.
---->The Scale Masters Web site is required reading for all of us scale fans;what about the A.M.A. scale judging guide?
I like to fly scale aircraft but have yet to compete-
I find this thread of great interest as I thought I knew the importance of a so called"good scale 3 view," only to find discrepancies;which brings me to the subject of consistency.
-select a three view After you have 'validated it,'then stick with it.
-use 'only' photos of the exact full scale airplane you are replicating*with the exception of say landing gear ,a pito tube, Etc..
-A color photo of the exact plane you are replicating is a plus when backed up with the Federal Standard color chip as a reference to say military standard colors of the period..
*Many of our "favorite'War Birds were painted in the field for squadron I.D. purposes say a red nose and yellow tail HOW DO WE VALIDATE THIS? With a faded color photo?
-A good presentation of course will of mandate a folder;so use this to clarify your aircraft scale details,with out over whelming the scale judge(s)
-A good point was made about insuring your replica is reliable in it's operation. (plenty of time at home to entertain your neighbors with an engine run up..
-Much has been written as to scale flying. Just Know your models limitations,with regards to take off and landing.
---->The Scale Masters Web site is required reading for all of us scale fans;what about the A.M.A. scale judging guide?
I like to fly scale aircraft but have yet to compete-
01-20-2005, 05:01 PM
#11
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Scale for competition
I would say that Color photos are given a dim view by some Judges. That's because your color chip will almost never match a photograph.
Color photos are good for placement of colors but not for the Color themselves. You aren't even required to have a photograph of your plane at all. You are required to have a good set of 3 views and information documenting the colors. Those colors are then represented with approved color chips. One of the Key aspects to judging is to only give the Judges sufficient information that the plane you are modeling is represented in the model you produce and nothing more than that. The More you give the judges the More you can be down graded on [X(].
Color photos are good for placement of colors but not for the Color themselves. You aren't even required to have a photograph of your plane at all. You are required to have a good set of 3 views and information documenting the colors. Those colors are then represented with approved color chips. One of the Key aspects to judging is to only give the Judges sufficient information that the plane you are modeling is represented in the model you produce and nothing more than that. The More you give the judges the More you can be down graded on [X(].
01-20-2005, 11:56 PM
#12
RE: Scale for competition
Everybody-- thanks for the input. I didn't think I'd get such great response, and the advice on competing in scale is outstanding. But my feeling is this: it's a great thing, to be able to build a model, detail it to the last rivet and have it judged as looking perfectly like the full-size version, but part of why I enjoy building is artistic expression and the judging, I feel ,limits that by the narrow focus. This is well and good, but I don't think it's for me. I want to make the plane mine, as well; sort of a vicarious way to say"if I'd been there and flew one in combat, this is how MINE would have looked". Looking at my references tonight, and thinking about what you guys have said, has helped me decide what I'm going to do.
The reference I'm using is called "The Lovable One-Niner" the definitive reference work for the L-19 / 0-1. It has over 200 pictures, B&W and color, 3-views, technical specs and comparisons of all the variants, cockpit layouts, "optional" equipment, field mods, crash pictures, history of its Korea and Vietnam service, paint schemes. There is also an index with all the serial and tail numbers of all the Birddogs ever built, and their completion dates. I've decided the tail number on mine is going to be from the aircraft that was finished on my birthday in 1954. The color scheme will be from a different plane, but it is the same model variant, and it will have features accurate to the type but shared by many different planes that served in Vietnam, such as rocket pods under one wing and a pylon mounted M60 on the other. I know it could never compete in a true scale competition, but it will be interesting to look at. I plan to post a building thread when I start it, but other priorities have it pushed back a while.
The reference I'm using is called "The Lovable One-Niner" the definitive reference work for the L-19 / 0-1. It has over 200 pictures, B&W and color, 3-views, technical specs and comparisons of all the variants, cockpit layouts, "optional" equipment, field mods, crash pictures, history of its Korea and Vietnam service, paint schemes. There is also an index with all the serial and tail numbers of all the Birddogs ever built, and their completion dates. I've decided the tail number on mine is going to be from the aircraft that was finished on my birthday in 1954. The color scheme will be from a different plane, but it is the same model variant, and it will have features accurate to the type but shared by many different planes that served in Vietnam, such as rocket pods under one wing and a pylon mounted M60 on the other. I know it could never compete in a true scale competition, but it will be interesting to look at. I plan to post a building thread when I start it, but other priorities have it pushed back a while.
