paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Well I test flew mine today. I had the ailerons off by quit a bit and needed more aileron than I had on trim so I never got to the flaps. But soon.

Joe

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

I am adding split flaps to my ebay arf seafury , what I found to be very useful is flight skin .
Because its so thin you simply cut it to shape add the ribs , leading edge and trailing egde and you get a much lighter flap then 1/64 ply laminated balsa and its very very strong .

old-pilot

LDM;

I'm not familiar with 'flite skin'. Any specifics???

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Roy try www.fliteskin.com
phone is 954-940 -0654

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Well this has been a really poor summer for flying models. but I did get this one ironed out, so here is what has transpired.

First flight I already covered so picking up with flight two, the takeoff was uneventfull and the gear came up after she was finally trimmed. Once I felt good about the trim I started to fine tune checking for yaw, and engine thrust. then it was time to land so I poped the gear down and made a check pass then on the next pass right in front of me I reduced the throttle to 1/2 let the plane bleed some speed off then deployed 50 degrees of flap. The plane nosed up slightly, no left or right role, and as soon as it burned off the excess speed the nose came down and with alittle up E it flew level. Next pass down the runway I advanced the throttle to full and held the E and it took about 1/2 the pass before it started to climb. On the down wind I throttled back to 1/2 throttle and let it slow back down. in the down wind turn I lost about 300ft in the turn (almost a decending Chandelle). Once lined up on the runway I dove steeply to about 6 ft, brought the T to idle, kept the attitudeand let her wheel land. Once full stopped, I pulled the flaps up and taxied back. On the taxi back the landing gear were clicking.

This is typical of plywood landing gear rails. What happens is the glue holding the layers within the ply togeather brakes and when stressed the bending of the debonded ply causes the layers to slide against each other. Some CA and we were ready for a second flight. On the taxi test the plane nosed in, just as I expected on of the front rails was loose and that ment a trip home.

Second trip to the field the other front landing gear mount broke in the same fashion so I removed both front mounts, doug the rib socket for the mount deeper, and replaced the Lt ply with Maple. But while I was doing this I noticed the frame on my old style KMP retracts had bent baddly. I replaced them with a new set of CJ retracts I bought a couple of year earlier and never used. One of the cylinders leaked. I added some AC conditioning oil and tryed it again in 24hr, and it failed. After three days of this and improvments but still not acceptable results, I phoned a freind with a set of CJ retracts he had not used yet. His set also had a leaky cylinder, but a good one got me back in the air. We're still trying to get the two leaky ones to work.

I now have about ten flights on it and the low passes are great and with 50 degrees of flap it bleeds speed very quickly and I'm concidering reducing to 45 degrees.

So how are you guy's doing with your projects?

Joe

Rip n Bank

Hey Joe,

Hasn't been the greatest summer for flying here in Colorado. Too many weekends with excessive wind, especially cross-winds, to get in as much flying as I'd have liked.

As for my "flaps-bashed" H9 P-51, it has about eight flights on it so far. Would have been more by now, but on many trips to the airfield, including today, either strong cross-winds or lots of clouds have kept it in the vehicle while I put the more forgiving (and visible) yellow 60 UltraStick in the air instead. I've found the silver colored 'Stang easily disappears against a gray cloud background, especially the wings! Hard to stay with the plane if you can't SEE the plane!

On those few "blue sky, low wind" days the P-51 actually did fly, the flaps worked great, and the landings I have made have been slow and easy. So, while the flaps-bash was worth it, I've pretty much made up my mind that my future warbird choices will be those that already come with them.

As to the other big change to that ARF, the Robart gear gives the H9 'Stang super ground handling characteristics, especially after I further de-sensitized the steerable tailwheel a few flights back. No wheel wobble at all on taxiing or take-offs/landings.

Really is a fun plane to fly!

Bo

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Bo, I'm glad you have gotten some flap time. I'm sorry to here about the weather, but I've just gotten used to flying in silhouette. The secret to crosswind landings is to wheel land and right after touch down (not while bouncing, once its solidly on the ground) pop the flaps up. I have a dump switch on all my wind planes to do this. this will instantly increase the stall speed, the tail will come down fast and I'm on three wheels.

I put two more flights on mine tonight. Had some fun with one of the guy's that had not seen it yet. I told him how underpowered it was. the other guy's who had seen it fly already joined right in telling him they were wondering how it stayed airborn, etc.. It did not take long after takeoff before he realized he had been had and the bot's kept it going as long as posible.


Joe

Reverend

My Feedback: (3)

Hi!

just wantend to thank Paladin for this great thread! Did as you said, just remaidened "barf'ed" H9 Stang today and FINALLY she lands the way I want it to...

Way to go!

Greetings from Austria,

Rev

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Hey, Rev. I'm glad this worked out for you! I had hoped this would allow pilots to try flaps with low cost in $$$ and swet. What's the vitals? what do you have for power? and retracts?

Joe

Reverend

My Feedback: (3)

Hi Paladin!

Its a lot easier than I thought at first. The most important thing is a little bit of guts just to make that first cut.

My Stang is powered by a very old 91 OS Surpass swinging a 14x7 Prop. This Combo has more than enough power to haul the Plane across the sky. Its quite a fast bird and I am thinking of repropping to 14x6 or 15x5. The retracts are custom made alluminium ones from a shop here in Innsbruck. The piano wire struts are a bit wobbly and I wil change them to robart struts. Theres no more $$$ (or rather €€€) going into this Plane because of a spanking new CMPro 120 Zero that is lying on the desk waiting to be built. I would really fancy some Century Jet Retracts for this one! This will be the next plane to get Flaps btw.

Regards,
Rev

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Hey Rev, I’ve got the same one well one size up(CMP GS ZERO). I started in April06 then my son got interesred in shooting and it has not progress from that point. Now its to cold to shoot I’m trying to dig back into my work room to it. I got mine from AK-Models and now that I’m not rushing to finish to fly it this year I can take some pic’s of the progress. I plan to install a Zenoha G-62 for power (there goes most of the bottom of the cowl). The Century Jet retracts(CJM) where both leaking when I dropped this project. For that matter I had two other sets of CJM’s and only 2 cylinders held air off the shelf (pretty poor). I treated them with some AC oil (for car AC) and one had come back in April. So now I need to see how they made out over the summer with that stuff in place. I’m afraid the problem is caused by the rigidity of the cylinder mount, so the next step is to remove the cylinders and let them set unencumbered by the mechanism. If they hold air after that then the mechanism is forcing the leak, That means elongating holes and adjusting for least air loss. I’ve flown retracts for twenty five years and never had this problem, but I never flew CJM. I wish giant scale retracts did not require so much redo after paying all that $$$$.

I’m also perplexed by the Rube Goldberg design to make the tail wheel steer able. I’m still consternating on that one.

My Evergreen P-51D is powered by a O.S. Max 1.2 pumped turning a 15x8 and on a low pass I’ve got to be doing 110mph “Cooken�. While that is a smidge faster than scale speed this is a fly-in / practice / poor weather plane. So it’s a bit over powered the flaps will provide all the drag I need to get it back to earth. This plane started with the KMP retracts that came with my hurricane. I figured they would do OK in a 8.5# plane, I was wrong. Now I have CJM retracts in it (two of the cylinders that hold air).

I bought some ultracoat to cover the exposed parts of the flaps, with 16 flights on the plane I’m using ½ inch wide strips to cover seams because they are lifting and not re-tacking.

Joe

Rip n Bank

Hey Rev,

I laughed out loud when I read those first two lines! I used Paladin's great information to add flaps to my H9 60 P-51. Still, after carefully reading his steps, studying the pictures, and tracing the appropriate lines on my ARF's wing, I still hesitated when it was time to actually CUT the wing!

Glad I did, though. It turned out to be a great "BARF", and the plane performs beautiful, steep, slow landing approaches with full 45 degree deployment.

Bo

Airnondas

My Feedback: (6)

Thanks to all of you, for the great info on how to add flaps.

Bo I took your advice and hinged the flaps as close to the TE as possible

I beefed up the landing gear rails and installed some Spring air retracts as well.

I also decided to change the look of the Sweet Marie and go for the Big Beutiful Doll scheme.

Here are some pictures of the mods.

__________________________________

Airnondas

Rip n Bank

Hey Airnondas,

GREAT job on the flaps addition! Yer gonna love landing this baby, now!!

Give us a report back after you've flown her and landed w/ flaps the first time.

Hint: turn base-to-final at least twice as high as you usually do! She'll "crawl" down the steeper glide path w/ full 45-degree flaps. Control pitch (ie, descent track to the end of runway) with throttle, not elevator (until you flair).

Bo

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

I love it. pilots actually talking about flying!

cutting into ARF's and making structural mods!

Keep up the great work!

Joe

Airnondas

My Feedback: (6)

Hi Bo,

Thanks for the pre-flight advice.

Now I can't wait to get to the field and try her out

I have a side mounted Saito 1.25 with a smoke pitts muffler and slimline smoke system.

It should make some nice smoke trails across a blue sky.

Will try to take some pictures.

Thanks again BO and Paladin for all the info.

________________________

Airnondas

Airnondas

My Feedback: (6)

Today I decided to take a chance with the weather and go to the field.

Started up the engine and made some small adjustments.
I have to say that from all the Saito engines I own, this one has to be the smoothest idling of all.

Here is a shot just before takeoff.

___________________

Airnondas.

Rip n Bank

Hey Airnondas,

Wait a minute... "Here is a shot just before takeoff."???

Great picture, but how about a flight report on her first flight with flaps? I'd like to hear how they worked for you!

Bo

Airnondas

My Feedback: (6)

Well here is how the test flight went.

Like Paladin when I took off, the ailerons were off quite a bitt and needed more trim than was available from my transmitter.

I came in for landing and that is when another club member offered to mechanically adjust the horns to neutral the ailerons.

I should have payed more attention to what he did because this time on take-off the plane went into a knife edge and was not able to bring the wings level at all. The extra weight of the muffler, smoke pump, oil and battery made this plane very hard to fly at knife edge . With full rudder I was barely able to keep the nose up. I stayed on the throttle and brought the plane around and lined up with the runway but trying to land the plane on a knife edge attitude was not covered in the owners manuel.

As soon as the wing tip touched the ground the plane cartwheeled and cracked the wing.

Luckily there was not a scratch on the fuse or engine.

I am going to open up the wing and ckeck the ribs and see if it is repairable

I guess the flaps will have to wait, kind of a bummer, I was really looking forward to doing some flap landings

Here is another shot at take-off
____________________________

Airnondas

4sylvester

Paladin,
I just got my H9 P-51 and I am ready to cut the wing. I understand most everything but 1 key point. I am doing pin hinges with a bottom hinge point. However, what is the angle of the mating surface between the wing TE and LE of the flap? Does it look like this with a 15 degree angle?

Rip n Bank

Sylvester,

My flap cut line ended up right on top of the line you get by extending the existing aileron "cut" lines, top and bottom, nearly all the way to the fuselage. This basically results in the wing TE and flap LE being pretty much vertical when the airplane is level.

Whether that is ideal or not, aerodynamically, is probably less important than one of Paladin's key reasons for the cut location: you want at least 1/4" of the trailing edge sheeting to be AHEAD of the cut line so as to act as a "jig" to hold the rib's new trailing edges aligned until the custom "sub-spars" are inserted. Using the aileron cut line happened to give me that needed 1/4". Note that a scale flap cut line is ahead of the aileron line, and probably won't provide you enough sheeting to act as a jig.

Aerodynamically, I find this configuration to work extraordinarily well. At full deflection, the bottom surface of the flaps are at a 45 degree angle to the bottom of the wing, permitting a very steep, high-drag approach on final w/o any corresponding increase in airspeed, and she tracks in very stable (ie, sticks neutral) in every axis. Yeah, there's a big "V" notch in the top of the wing when the flaps are fully deployed, but it creates no adverse effect that I can detect.

The steep approach not only looks way cool, but permits such a pronounced nose-down attitude (START HIGH!) on base and final that there is virtually no way to tip stall a wing. Just be sure stay above 1/4 throttle and hold that nose-down attitude during the base-to-final turn!

My "Marie" has no flap-elevator P-mix, and doesn't need it (it's pitch neutral to flaps, but will "balloon" from excess airspeed). I change glide slope with throttle. On the other hand, my H9 1.50 P-51 exhibits significant nose-up pitching when I go to full flaps, AT ANY AIRSPEED, and is a handful to fly down final w/o negative elevator mixed to the flaps.

Once I made that change (I know, Paladin, but this 'Stang is different!), my full flap landings of Frankie began to easily mirror the slow, steep, "almost-too-easy" approaches possible with Marie!

Rip

4sylvester

Makes sense now. Thanks. Let the cutting and hacking begin!

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Sylvester, rip’s got it!

Only thing I could add is that you need to walk before you can run. Kiss, for now. If you get to the point where you are comfortable with the flaps and perfer to land with them then get fancy.

Rip, next time flying the 1.5 turn the E trim off. When it ballons let it go and reduce the T (one click at a time) till it stops climbing. Then keep reducing till you have to hold E as you expect. Fly it around at that setting because you want to find out high if anything is wrong. I think you are letting the size fool you, I do it all the time, I normally fly 1.2 4cycle size and have to force my self to slow it down (below what I think is reasonable). We modelers fly with visual reference so when the plane gets bigger it looks so much slower. Of coarse you know if I’m wrong the plane will not hold the speed, this will be noticeable to you as adding E constantly to a stall. If it is able to hold the speed you should be able to establish a consistent E setting.

Joe

Kawa

Great thread. Thx for sharing to everyone. Ill be in my garage for the next week - modding my P51.

paladin

My Feedback: (9)

Kawa, you have a H9 p-51d? its a great plane for training for flaps becase you can fly it around all day to get used to the way it flys with flaps then pop them up to land till your ready to try flaps. this is the atitude the plane should fly in with flaps.