G-Pete

Here guys is a full scale jet...it's just breathtaking!!!!

[link=http://bobandsylvia.com/FIGHTER.htm]click here[/link]

Whistling Death

What gets me is that you can look at our jets and the skin is smooth from nose to tail. Look at the Russian jets and there are exposed rivets, screws, etc. The Russians are experts at simplicity at its best.

They build them and put them on line, we test ours untill they are obsolete.

I am sure China will be interested in their jet. With the number of arfs we all buy every year, they can buy as many as they want. [:-]

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Um guys hate to break it to you, the Su-30 has been in service since the mid 1990s (1996 to be exact). The F-22 beats the Su-30 in just about every possible peformance rating. The Su-35 cannot really be counted as a combat aircraft as there are only five built, with four of them in "service". The Su-37 only had two built and have only been used to show the aircraft off to perspective buyers.

If uyou wanna see supermanuverability, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW2Hvu_mUdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Q6Vb9xJM0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocr1B...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1H1vN2tnPM

While the Su-30 is a great aircraft, its not steath, it cannot supercruise, it has a very bad habit of crashing during airshows.

Su-30:
2x Saturn AL-30FL with 16754 lbs of thrust dry, wet 27550
Max Speed: 2.35 mach
Range 1620 miles (ferry), 400m combat
Ceiling: 57410
Rate of climb 230 m/s

F-22:
2x PW F119-PW-100's with 35,000 lbs of thrust (actual number classified)
Max Speed 2+ mach (actual number classified)
Range 2000+ miles without refueling (ferry), 410 miles combat
Ceiling: 65,000
Rate of climb: over 275 m/s

Whistling Death

Ok, I stand corrected and I am glad too

Meschmidt

My Feedback: (15)

Besides that, 3D has no military advantage. Just blow it out of the sky when it is torque rolling! Paul

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

The only thing the F22 keep doing is stand on its tail. No flat spins, no turns around itself or inside a football field. In some manovers the Su 30 almost stop all forward motion. From what I saw The Su 30 would turn inside the F22 all day. That is if they where dancing. now in combat it all comes down to the better pilot.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Do I have to do all the information gathering for people?

You really need to do some more research. Please. Its all out there and only takes a few minutes to find. The information on the Su-30 (and the Su-35) is very much public knowledge. And thus far what the US has released on the F-22 only hammers the point home even more, and if you think the US is letting the whole cat out of the bag, you are much mistaken.

A lot more.

The F-22 is the first known production fighter to be able to perform the Herbst Turn, which was only able to be done before by the X-31. The Russians claimed the Su-27 could do it, but its never been seen and the claim isnt made for the advanced Su-27's

The F-22's turn radius is nearly 1/4th (yes ONE FOURTH) that of the Su-30. In fact the F-22 can even pull a tighter turn with its afterburners lit than the Su-30 (even the Su-35!) can without its can's lit. Do a little more research to figure out what happens in a high speed turn to figure out exactly what I am saying here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n34RwIUlnAo


Hell even the Eurofighter team said the F-22 scares them and taking into consideration the combat capabilities of the F-22, is expected to shoot down ONE F-22 per 10 Eurofighters! (http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk...ghter/tech.php)

As I said, if you want to start talking the Su-35 and Su-37, just remember, they are mid 90's aircraft, and neither one has ever entered full scale production. Unlike the F-22 which is quickly being built and deployed around the entire US. Even the Su-30 in Russia isn't expected to exceede more than 10 aircraft.

Even if the Su's could out manuver the F-22 it really doesn't matter, as combat requires the Su's to see and radar paint (or IR track) the F-22, which is going to be a chore in to itself as the radar signature for hte F-22 is less than that of the B-2 which is more stealthy than its predecessor in the stealth world, the F-117A.

bla bla

Hey, I remember back when the Russians first hit the airshow scene doing those routines. It scared a pants off everyone.

The problem with the F22 is that it's just so American. From the hype to the brain washing to it's so secret caperbilities to the Walt Disney looks.
Regards less of how good it may be, how caperble it could be or how revolutionary it might be, one can not escape the fact that the airshow routines demonstrated by the worlds best trained pilots flying the worlds best performing most caperble airplane, are just so totally, utterly and brain numbingly DULL!

Wake me when the conversation returns to some Russian pilots giving breath taking demonstrations of some totally awesome aeronautical engineering... on a $500 budget!
ZZZZzzzzzzz

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

So that would explain over 12 Russian plane crashes in the past 10 years at airshows right? With six of them involving Su-27 family aircraft.


Brainwashing? Sorry Russia has that one wrapped up in giftwrap, with a bow and a nice card from Putin himself.

So secret abilities? So you would rather play your game of Mattis or Spardam telling everyone exactly what you are doing? Sorry man, I'd rather let a little bit of info out and let the rest just be "guesses" so if the bullets start flying you have a good level of the unknown the enemy cannot prepare for.

Americans do what they do because the rules the FAA puts in place, and for airshows there are dozens and dozens of them. While they may be "boring" they are safe.

bla bla

It should be advanced... it cost 10 Godzillion dollars! I hope to god, for the sake of the tax payer... it's the most advanced thing on the planet.
But that's not the point . When it come down to airshowing-off... It's a DULL.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

As I said, the laws in America regarding airshows are much different than the Russians (and in this case Ukranians) have/had.

And thus far, I'm glad for them.

Else stuff like this happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTI5etjTniU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeX2M...eature=related

84 people killed. 100 injured.

91zulu

My Feedback: (2)

Hmmmmm you know I could remember when America thought that the F4 was the fastest fighter plane there was ,,, Until it was out run my a MIG. 25.

So what make you think thats all to the Su 30. Remember The Su 27 I think had the most advanced rader system at one time.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

all about move and counter move ad infinitum.

These days manuverability is a moot ability to have, good for airshows but the cold reality of today's networkcentric warfare is that all the warfighters assets are networked, they see what each other is seeing, they are co-ordinated and they do not have any need to get into a knife fight in a phone booth.

Simply sit quiet, take the feeds in and when the diamond locks on pickle the weapons till the targets go away. Target will only know about it in the last few seconds when the slammer goes active, assuming it is in radar mode then, it may be in infared or it may be in home on jam mode.

Only drwback at this stage is the range of the slammer but from what I have read Phoenix class range capabilities are not far away.


This is also assuming that an actual weapon is deployed and that the F22 is not sitting quiet, unseen, unheard hacking into it's opponents systems and planting nasty little worms. It is a an airborne hacking machine with some very nasty capabilities in that area.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Peter, not only is it hacking, its also coordinating for the first time in the history of warfare, the computer and radar in the F-22 are forwarding highly encrypted data to the rest of the airforce and ground forces...


Its a scary bird we still have a lot to learn about.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

mate we may never learn all it can do and yes the whole concept is now changing by orders of magnitude.

The first shooting mat ch it gets into will be interesting, that is if the relase anything about it . . . [:-]

mobyal

Merlin is absolutely right in what he's said, particularly in oomparing the aircraft.
In addition, the SU 29/30 family aircraft aren't line aircraft; they're show aircraft lacking armamaent, among other things. So thry're about as light as they're gonna get. And nowhere near ready for combat operations.
I watched the F22 (along w/ the F15 qnd F16) perform three straight days at the Gasthering of Legends airshow in Columbus OH in late September. I can tell you that aircraft does things that you'd never think anything with wings can do. It will literally pivot, vertically and/or horizontally, around its own axis. Saw a number of the maximum turns. Awesome. And the F15s and F16 couldn't get close to it in manuvering. The F22 that performed was a line, combat-ready aircraft w/ all armament, racks plus whatever, included.
True story: A college classmate of mine recently retired as a high-ranking Air Force officer. He retained all his ratings until retirement, and shortly brfore he retired he checked out in the F22. He told me that he and a second F22 flew a practice mission against a completely-defended ground target; defenses included not only the full panoply of ground radar, air/ground control etc but also 12 F15s. The F22s entered the area completely undetected, were briefly painted by ground radar when they opened their weapons bays, but as soon as they "released" and the doors closed, were lost again. F15s, even w/ the assistance of ground control, never saw the F22s. As the F22s egessed the target area they "shot down" 4 of the F15s. F15s still never could locate them.
So as Merlin said above, the F22 presents two problems for any opposition right now. First the bad guys have to find it. And once it's found, then they have to deal with its capabilities as a fighter.
I don't want to take anything away from the F29/30 aircraft, but let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. If we're looking at our inventory, the more apt comparison might be to our F15/F16 aircraft....

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

A few videos of the two two;

http://www.f22-raptor.com/media/vide...ow_Langley.wmv

http://www.f22-raptor.com/media/vide...us-320x240.wmv

http://www.f22-raptor.com/media/vide...Extreme_lg.wmv

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

The independently controlled full elevators is amazing to watch. One goes up, one goes down and the plane goes thata-way.

Wow.

Even the Lockheed propaganda for the F-22 is fun to watch.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

I think its amazing that it can climb fast or really slow, or basically hover vertically, then put the nose down and fly out without losing altitude.

I imagine the sukhois dream of being able to do that.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

I have quite a few friends in Russia (went to grad school with a lot of them for Aerospace Engineering). They are still blown away when the F-22 does the Pugachev's Cobra from any angle of attack and as quickly as it does, but its ability to do Herbst maneuver is downright shocking.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

I wonder how long the centre barrel and rear bulkheads near the stab will hold up with those sort of manouvers?

As you will know the F18 fleets around the world are underging a massive project of CBR to keep them going. Our fleet of 18s had some major problems with rear bulkheads cracking near the stab due to the agressive training our pilots did in them.

food for thought

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Completely different design and assembly process for those assemblies.

One hopes that the guys building them are actually following spec's unlike the spars for the F-15's.

MEINSHNAKE

It is quite breathtaking, seeing and hearing the awesome power of the engines. When I saw the RIAT airshow in England... It was unbelievable. The greatest part was seeing how fast the jets could go and then seeing them go as slow as they possibly could. Full burner takeoff is amazing aswell, taxing, applying full throttle and being vertical in the air within 3 seconds. if you ever get the chance Go see an airshow where both the red sparrows and the american team (sorry I forget the name off the top of my head) and just watch the different pilot capabilities and the different routines the two teams go through.

Peter_OZ

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I would hope so. As they say to the smug pilot sitting in his fighter when he looks down his nose at the ground crew. "dunno what you are sitting there grinning about mate, you are sitting in the winning tenderer's aeroplane!"

Think about it.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

The Americans have two teams, the Blue Angels flying F/A-18c's and the Thunderbirds flying F-16's (C's and D's Block 32H/J)