ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
07-13-2008, 08:48 AM
#27
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
White Rook , your dead on , we are not asking for a 25 size model , and yes we know we may have to pay $400 thru the $700 range . As far as kits I know that IMP scale makes some really nice kits , great support and great company , only issue is that if you want the fiberglass fuse the shipping is a killer . i have purchased thru IMP before and everything is first class .
As far as overpowering warbirds , agree again with your comments -people need to read , first off many planes ARfs and kits are stated with engine sizes under powered . I truely believe that this was once a marketing strategy that went too far and in the wrong direction . Stating smaller engine sizes may add appeal to a sport flyer who would advoid a plane needing a bigger engine . The gold edition P40 is a great example , while its stated it can fly on a 60 thru 90 engine , the plane is a baby on a 120 4 stroke and really at home .
Even the new KMP corsair , originally it was stated that a 120 thru 140 4 stroke were suggestd , while KMPs are designed good , a 74 " span warbird would be better of in the 150 thru 180size 4 stroke (now suggested by KMP) . My goal with every warbird is never ever add weight , I am bashing an FW190 as we speak , I have moved all the wing servos ahead of the CG in the wing , took work but will save over 5oz from behind the CG now ahead of the CG .
In the end when all else fails , moveing to a slightly larger engine and or bigger battery is another option ,but still dont consider that over -powering .
Lastly what will we do with an ARF Dauntless lol , buy fly around the field ....I thought we all flew around the field ???
As far as overpowering warbirds , agree again with your comments -people need to read , first off many planes ARfs and kits are stated with engine sizes under powered . I truely believe that this was once a marketing strategy that went too far and in the wrong direction . Stating smaller engine sizes may add appeal to a sport flyer who would advoid a plane needing a bigger engine . The gold edition P40 is a great example , while its stated it can fly on a 60 thru 90 engine , the plane is a baby on a 120 4 stroke and really at home .
Even the new KMP corsair , originally it was stated that a 120 thru 140 4 stroke were suggestd , while KMPs are designed good , a 74 " span warbird would be better of in the 150 thru 180size 4 stroke (now suggested by KMP) . My goal with every warbird is never ever add weight , I am bashing an FW190 as we speak , I have moved all the wing servos ahead of the CG in the wing , took work but will save over 5oz from behind the CG now ahead of the CG .
In the end when all else fails , moveing to a slightly larger engine and or bigger battery is another option ,but still dont consider that over -powering .
Lastly what will we do with an ARF Dauntless lol , buy fly around the field ....I thought we all flew around the field ???
07-13-2008, 12:36 PM
#28
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Initially a Dauntless ARF might cost more then a kit, but nowadays, most arfs are cheaper and still good quality compared to a kit build.
07-13-2008, 12:42 PM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
This never add weight scenario really gets me, how else can you get the balance right without the addition of a twin row radial, or a 12 cylinder V engine? plus all the associated gubbins under the hood? we have single pot enginesand light ones at that!!, many full size have lead as well, the hurricane being a good example, i hear aircraft being describes as tail heavy, sorry, the correct scenario should read nose light, one thing WE can do, is to like others, stretch the nose, and shorten the tail moment, and add maybe have flat plate built up balsa tails, maybe sling some authentic film covering on the thing, i think myself, i would rather add ballast, and have it authentic in outline, (we can slip up there too, but mend it)
one thing WE can do, is to like others, stretch the nose, and shorten the tail moment, and add maybe have flat plate built up balsa tails, maybe sling some authentic film covering on the thing, i think myself, i would rather add ballast, and have it authentic in outline, (we can slip up there too, but mend it)
07-13-2008, 10:22 PM
#31
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Never add weight meant me personally - i just dont like dead weight , say what you want but planes were designed to fly in an efficient manner , obtaining CG by only adding weight is not good enginereing , I never said at any time add weight /not adding weight at the cost of scale outline never said that .
Many of the planes that were reviewed including the KMP Fw190 and Hurracane did not need a small amount of weight to achive CG , 13 to 14.5 stated weight and finishing up at 19.5 as published in MAN is poor enginering plane and simple .
Againg my opinion as a modeler and yes I found some faults with the reveiw itself (Hurrance )1)they could have used a larger gas engine -they chose the smaller one , 2)with additional bashing (not typically needed in a $500 arf ) the servos in the wing could have been moved ahead of the CG .
Sorry , but no offence , I am honest and if an ARF is $200 , $400 , $1000 , dont really care , in the end its all about how it flys , how it delivers on parts , fit and total quality ect ect .
Now back on subject , White Rock , can you list the two suppliers your talking about
Many of the planes that were reviewed including the KMP Fw190 and Hurracane did not need a small amount of weight to achive CG , 13 to 14.5 stated weight and finishing up at 19.5 as published in MAN is poor enginering plane and simple .
Againg my opinion as a modeler and yes I found some faults with the reveiw itself (Hurrance )1)they could have used a larger gas engine -they chose the smaller one , 2)with additional bashing (not typically needed in a $500 arf ) the servos in the wing could have been moved ahead of the CG .
Sorry , but no offence , I am honest and if an ARF is $200 , $400 , $1000 , dont really care , in the end its all about how it flys , how it delivers on parts , fit and total quality ect ect .
Now back on subject , White Rock , can you list the two suppliers your talking about
07-13-2008, 11:18 PM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
ORIGINAL: Phenius Fullofit
The Dauntless has always been one of my favorite planes. I too believe it will sell. I know I'm ready for one in the 60 to 72 inch wingspan size.
While reading this thread some guy mentioned the Boulton Paul Defiant. It's hard to believe anyone would make it, but they did, so I hauled off and bought one. From the pictures I will have to vaccuform a new canopy, turret and exhaust stacks. After its re covered as a nightfighter it should make an interesting model.
The Dauntless has always been one of my favorite planes. I too believe it will sell. I know I'm ready for one in the 60 to 72 inch wingspan size.
While reading this thread some guy mentioned the Boulton Paul Defiant. It's hard to believe anyone would make it, but they did, so I hauled off and bought one. From the pictures I will have to vaccuform a new canopy, turret and exhaust stacks. After its re covered as a nightfighter it should make an interesting model.
and it's still for sale
07-14-2008, 12:40 AM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Sorry I don't mean to be so cynical. It's just around here, very few buy the good quality expensive ARF's. Just the cheep ones. If KMP came out with a Dauntless, it would probably be pretty nice. But lots of luck getting a big one for a gas engine. It is fun to talk about it here on the internet, but how many large ARF SBD's would an ARF co. have to make to be worth it? 25? or 500?
07-14-2008, 02:28 AM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
ORIGINAL: scale dail
Sorry I don't mean to be so cynical. It's just around here, very few buy the good quality expensive ARF's. Just the cheep ones. If KMP came out with a Dauntless, it would probably be pretty nice. But lots of luck getting a big one for a gas engine. It is fun to talk about it here on the internet, but how many large ARF SBD's would an ARF co. have to make to be worth it? 25? or 500?
Sorry I don't mean to be so cynical. It's just around here, very few buy the good quality expensive ARF's. Just the cheep ones. If KMP came out with a Dauntless, it would probably be pretty nice. But lots of luck getting a big one for a gas engine. It is fun to talk about it here on the internet, but how many large ARF SBD's would an ARF co. have to make to be worth it? 25? or 500?
07-14-2008, 03:07 AM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Buy plans from Jerry Bates and FG fuse from VicRC
Laser parts are here as well.
It is not an ARF, but you can do in with not too much work and you will end with much better looking mode in your size and you will support local industry
Laser parts are here as well.
It is not an ARF, but you can do in with not too much work and you will end with much better looking mode in your size and you will support local industry
07-14-2008, 07:50 AM
#37
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Vik , not a bad suggestion.
On the set up cost , I think your underestimating the process and cost , it may be $30,000 to $50,000 in RD alone and usually you need LOC with a new vendor , so your talking full paymnet in the bank for the first MOQMinimum order quanity .Then you need to be certain that you are dealing with a reputal contacted supplier , so you need a first run inspection , mid term and final run QC test .
I am really skipping many parts but the cost in keeping your people over there durng the process and thru the process is all part of the cost . All typical of good manufacturing practices .
We contract and supply major licensed brands from China and the world market , we have a process and procedures manual that is 10" thick , Its given me new respect for all the companys that do it well like Tower , Horizon , KMP , VQ ect . When ever contracting with foreign suppliers you have many things that can go wrong
Any way before we put everyone to sleep with the details , yes it would be a great plane , yes I would love to get one in the $400 to $700 max , anything more then that usually is out of my allowable RC budget , Wifey controls that area like the Feds control the interest rates
On the set up cost , I think your underestimating the process and cost , it may be $30,000 to $50,000 in RD alone and usually you need LOC with a new vendor , so your talking full paymnet in the bank for the first MOQMinimum order quanity .Then you need to be certain that you are dealing with a reputal contacted supplier , so you need a first run inspection , mid term and final run QC test .
I am really skipping many parts but the cost in keeping your people over there durng the process and thru the process is all part of the cost . All typical of good manufacturing practices .
We contract and supply major licensed brands from China and the world market , we have a process and procedures manual that is 10" thick , Its given me new respect for all the companys that do it well like Tower , Horizon , KMP , VQ ect . When ever contracting with foreign suppliers you have many things that can go wrong
Any way before we put everyone to sleep with the details , yes it would be a great plane , yes I would love to get one in the $400 to $700 max , anything more then that usually is out of my allowable RC budget , Wifey controls that area like the Feds control the interest rates
07-14-2008, 03:26 PM
#38
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
LD , I WAS refering to the Bates and Ziroli kits. i'm building a C A P Dauntless, wich is 70
INCH span and i'm cutting my own parts , its a bear , but i like the design . AN ARF in that size
would be affordable . THE C A P plans reqire a 90 size engine , but with such a short nose, i dont think it will ever balance with that engine. its really stout construction , the fuse is almost
6 INCHES wide at the rear gunners cockpit,and the wing has a 17 inch cord at root . i might try a super tigre 2500 , at arround
12 ounces more than the 90 ,it could offset the weight . THE aircraft is a scottish design and was marketed by traplet in england , but no longer available . IT SHOULD BE!!
As far as a big zir or bates size ARF , IT would be scary how much cash you'd have to throw.
its out of my league
INCH span and i'm cutting my own parts , its a bear , but i like the design . AN ARF in that size
would be affordable . THE C A P plans reqire a 90 size engine , but with such a short nose, i dont think it will ever balance with that engine. its really stout construction , the fuse is almost
6 INCHES wide at the rear gunners cockpit,and the wing has a 17 inch cord at root . i might try a super tigre 2500 , at arround
12 ounces more than the 90 ,it could offset the weight . THE aircraft is a scottish design and was marketed by traplet in england , but no longer available . IT SHOULD BE!!
As far as a big zir or bates size ARF , IT would be scary how much cash you'd have to throw.
its out of my league
07-14-2008, 04:45 PM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
the CAP dauntless IS still available, along with the rest of the range, as KITS, google anglia models, UK, i have flown this model, full paint job, air retracts, both dive brake and flap, power was a laser 90, it flew not well, but SUPERBLY, i cannot remember if i ballasted it, but if i did, it didnt affect it at all, too heavy a motor will spoil it, plans for this model, and many out of the CAP range are avilable from traplet models,
07-14-2008, 05:09 PM
#40
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
The reasons seem obvious to me: it would be a very difficult aircraft to produce, at least if you want it to be right.
I've been working (on building) a Jemco Dauntless for a few years now, I WILL finish it someday. But it has educated on just how complicated this aircraft is, at least for the modeler. Let's start from the bottom: the landing gear. Someone stated it was simple, but in fact: I had to order custom made RoboStruts ($$$) for mine. Why? because the axles are not perpendicular to the struts. I don't recall what the full scale angles are, but mine are 85 degrees, and that makes them look about right. Next are the dive brakes/ flaps. More than your average amount of work there: getting all those holes in, hinging them right, and making them functional as both dive braks AND flaps. Then there's the slots in the outer wings, the bomb trapeze (which must fit between the wheels wells). And as you work your way to the top: the cockpit/ gunner position/ radio. There is a LOT of details under all those canopy pieces, and you just can't leave out those details because it is so much in plane sight.
Of course it could be done, and I doubt there there will be a lack of demand for this great warbird (who wouldn't want one?), but to do it right: it can't be done cheaply, even in a smaller (.60 size?) scale.
And as much as I like Hangar 9 warbirds: I don't think their version of a Dauntless would cut it for me. It's GOT to have the dive brakes, bomb drop, and scale looking landing gear. Otherwise, forget it.
I've been working (on building) a Jemco Dauntless for a few years now, I WILL finish it someday. But it has educated on just how complicated this aircraft is, at least for the modeler. Let's start from the bottom: the landing gear. Someone stated it was simple, but in fact: I had to order custom made RoboStruts ($$$) for mine. Why? because the axles are not perpendicular to the struts. I don't recall what the full scale angles are, but mine are 85 degrees, and that makes them look about right. Next are the dive brakes/ flaps. More than your average amount of work there: getting all those holes in, hinging them right, and making them functional as both dive braks AND flaps. Then there's the slots in the outer wings, the bomb trapeze (which must fit between the wheels wells). And as you work your way to the top: the cockpit/ gunner position/ radio. There is a LOT of details under all those canopy pieces, and you just can't leave out those details because it is so much in plane sight.
Of course it could be done, and I doubt there there will be a lack of demand for this great warbird (who wouldn't want one?), but to do it right: it can't be done cheaply, even in a smaller (.60 size?) scale.
And as much as I like Hangar 9 warbirds: I don't think their version of a Dauntless would cut it for me. It's GOT to have the dive brakes, bomb drop, and scale looking landing gear. Otherwise, forget it.
07-14-2008, 07:04 PM
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
07-14-2008, 07:04 PM
#43
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
alanc , it is not available , i got the plans from Bob holman here in the US , I'M going to try
to balance it with a 90 , but i think it wont , if it does i intend to install the .90 . mabey it flies well
tail heavy . thanks , if youve got any more info on the C A P, ID be glad to hear it. also was the canopy in two pieces? traplet sent me a canopy , but it was just the front half.
to balance it with a 90 , but i think it wont , if it does i intend to install the .90 . mabey it flies well
tail heavy . thanks , if youve got any more info on the C A P, ID be glad to hear it. also was the canopy in two pieces? traplet sent me a canopy , but it was just the front half.
07-14-2008, 07:11 PM
#44
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
CJ, remember ARF kits strong suit is that they have atristic license to make first a scaleable, flyable and saleable plane and not necessarily in that order. SO ARf kits are more a compromise than a kit built model but they are both a compromise . I am not totally for arf kits but I love the unique and seldom modeled planes, if they come out with the right kit....I would probably buy it, recover it and make it mine. I collect the older kits, Jemco, royal and IMP because they model kits especially IMP that no one else will do or can do justice to and I am sure I am not the only one. Face it , the hobby has changed for the better and some might say for the worse, the worse being we are losing kit manufacturers and ideas and the skills to put them together. Just my .02 worth
07-15-2008, 12:28 AM
#45
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Cj knowing your love for the corsair , I am sure that the H9 while in your possesion was not up to your orginal love for the plane . I think the same would be true with the Dauntless but as Rambro stated , we would simply make the plane our own and add /bash the amount of details needed for our own personal taiste .FYI the jemco is the kit that is for sale on ebay , still climing in cost
07-15-2008, 04:40 AM
#46
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RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
How about a ARF SB2C-1 "Helldiver"?...wingspan around 80" +...other words known as the "Beast"..I can see why..BTW, SB2C means " SOB 2nd Class"....
07-15-2008, 08:44 AM
#47
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Copyright Impscale 2006
Short Kit Price $629.00
Kit comes with fiberglass cowl, ,clear canopy, bumps and blisters.And those tuff to Make Dive Brakes with the holes pre made
Accessories available:
Retracts, Pilots Cockpit kit .
IMP scale still make a very very good kid , but as stated and started in this post the goal is a half decent ARF .
Short Kit Price $629.00
Kit comes with fiberglass cowl, ,clear canopy, bumps and blisters.And those tuff to Make Dive Brakes with the holes pre made
Accessories available:
Retracts, Pilots Cockpit kit .
IMP scale still make a very very good kid , but as stated and started in this post the goal is a half decent ARF .
07-15-2008, 09:18 AM
#48
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
Hi All
I also have a Jemco SBD, however when Jet hangar bought the tooling for it he boxed it in his own name. But same kit. 64" span
The Jemco/Jet Hangar SBD is a Master Scale version of this airframe, as much as it is a complex build, this "kit" is still considered a "quick build" and easy version for its time.
The jemlock fuse design, foam core wings, even the dive brake holes are die cut. Sure the slats and multi part canopy are additional work, but thats were the "love" comes in.
For a kit, its was ahead of its time. Even to this day.
Would be a nice one to mold if it had more color choices like the 109.
Just my 2
Steve
I also have a Jemco SBD, however when Jet hangar bought the tooling for it he boxed it in his own name. But same kit. 64" span
The Jemco/Jet Hangar SBD is a Master Scale version of this airframe, as much as it is a complex build, this "kit" is still considered a "quick build" and easy version for its time.
The jemlock fuse design, foam core wings, even the dive brake holes are die cut. Sure the slats and multi part canopy are additional work, but thats were the "love" comes in.
For a kit, its was ahead of its time. Even to this day.
Would be a nice one to mold if it had more color choices like the 109.
Just my 2
Steve
07-15-2008, 02:46 PM
#50
RE: ARF -Dauntless why has it not be done ?
ORIGINAL: LDM
Cj knowing your love for the corsair , I am sure that the H9 while in your possesion was not up to your orginal love for the plane . I think the same would be true with the Dauntless but as Rambro stated , we would simply make the plane our own and add /bash the amount of details needed for our own personal taste .................................
Cj knowing your love for the corsair , I am sure that the H9 while in your possesion was not up to your orginal love for the plane . I think the same would be true with the Dauntless but as Rambro stated , we would simply make the plane our own and add /bash the amount of details needed for our own personal taste .................................
As for my Jemco (Master Scale), here is a video of the mechanical retracts and custom RoboStruts, installed in the middle wing section:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t324hgGswi0
Notice how the wheels are perpendicular to the 'ground'/ parallel to each other, while the struts are canted inward/ towards each other. This is how the full scale one are.